Livingroom to Home Theater Makeover

G

Ginsu543

Enthusiast
This project got started because I "inherited" four Yamaha NS-10M monitor speakers from my Dad, who didn't know what he had and was just going to get rid of them (all of them are in pristine condition!). When I added a Yamaha NS-10M Studio speaker as a center channel, I had the core of a decent 5.1 setup. Compared to some of the amazing A/V components I've seen on this site it's not much, but here are the specs to my system:

A/V receiver: Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K
Flatscreen TV: Samsung UN46B8000
Blu-Ray Player: Sony Playstation 3 Slim 120 GB
Subwoofer: Yamaha YST-SW315PN

The pics:

[URL=http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1969/hometheater2.jpg][/URL][URL=http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7598/hometheater4.jpg][/URL]
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks for sharing. Put your center speaker vertically, like the others are. You can try putting it on a mopad(s), and I would orient the mopad(s) backwards, so that you get an upward slope. Trust me.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
Very clean. I agree with putting the center vertically and on some mopads or something that will angle them up slightly. Love the couches too, they look very comfortable :)
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try.
Very clean. I agree with putting the center vertically and on some mopads or something that will angle them up slightly. Love the couches too, they look very comfortable :)
Another thing came to mind. It may be worth experimenting with trying the mains as upside down, which would get their tweeters closer to the same plane as the center's tweeter. Ear level is generally best, and it seems that they would still be relatively on axis. You can try them upside down as stereo only first, to see if it sounds the same, or better, or worse. The even height of tweeters will improve your panning. Really, even height of all drivers would be the goal, but I suppose it may matter more with tweeters, dunno, but worth trying nevertheless.
 
J

jamie2112

Banned
You know you can get $500 a pair for those on the studio market........just sayin. :D:D:D
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Awesome setup!

You know you can get $500 a pair for those on the studio market........just sayin. :D:D:D
Yeah man, I see those all the time in studios even still!

One thing I know about them though is that you have to be really careful not to blow their tweeters. A lot of people run fuses on them if they don't have a limiter already. For home use that might not be much of an issue if your easy on the volume, but in studios where you get lots of pops and ticks and burps ..well, a lot of those tweeters die.

I agree about trying some MoPads, those are nearfields and on axis will probably yield best results.
 
G

Ginsu543

Enthusiast
Thanks to everyone for responding. I'm just getting into the HT/Audio world, so all this is new to me. It's been fun browsing this site and gleaning some great info. So all your responses and suggestions are very welcome.

Very clean. I agree with putting the center vertically and on some mopads or something that will angle them up slightly. Love the couches too, they look very comfortable :)
Yes, the couches are VERY comfortable. They are my favorite places to sit in the entire house.

Another thing came to mind. It may be worth experimenting with trying the mains as upside down, which would get their tweeters closer to the same plane as the center's tweeter. Ear level is generally best, and it seems that they would still be relatively on axis. You can try them upside down as stereo only first, to see if it sounds the same, or better, or worse. The even height of tweeters will improve your panning. Really, even height of all drivers would be the goal, but I suppose it may matter more with tweeters, dunno, but worth trying nevertheless.
That is a very interesting suggestion. The reason I set it up the way I have is that, as it is right now the tweeters of the front L/R and rear L/R speakers (the ones on stands) are exactly at ear level when one is seated in the middle of the three-seater couch. Only the center speaker's is below ear level. The only problem of bringing the center channel speaker's tweeter to ear level is that it would raise the speaker so high that it would obstruct the TV. So the question I have is: is it better to have all the tweeter on the same level or to have as many of the tweeters as possible at ear level?

You know you can get $500 a pair for those on the studio market........just sayin. :D:D:D
Actually, I've seen some pairs being sold on eBay for ~$750. It cost me $250 to get the one NS-10M Studio speaker (I was fortunate enough to find a seller who was willing to sell just the one, not two as a pair) to use as my center channel. If at a future time I decide to swap out the speakers for another brand, I know I can still get good value for them.

Awesome setup!

Yeah man, I see those all the time in studios even still!

One thing I know about them though is that you have to be really careful not to blow their tweeters. A lot of people run fuses on them if they don't have a limiter already. For home use that might not be much of an issue if your easy on the volume, but in studios where you get lots of pops and ticks and burps ..well, a lot of those tweeters die.

I agree about trying some MoPads, those are nearfields and on axis will probably yield best results.
I too have heard that about these speakers, but as you said, I don't drive them too hard. The room is not that large anyways, so the volume doesn't have to be that high to fill the space.

Could you please explain to me what you mean when you say that being on axis will yield best results? I'm an audio newb, so I don't know what the term means and why it is better for nearfield speakers.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
That is a very interesting suggestion. The reason I set it up the way I have is that, as it is right now the tweeters of the front L/R and rear L/R speakers (the ones on stands) are exactly at ear level when one is seated in the middle of the three-seater couch. Only the center speaker's is below ear level. The only problem of bringing the center channel speaker's tweeter to ear level is that it would raise the speaker so high that it would obstruct the TV. So the question I have is: is it better to have all the tweeter on the same level or to have as many of the tweeters as possible at ear level?
My instinct/thought is that it would be better to aim for the latter. If you greatly succeeded with that, then all of the tweeters would already be on the same plane.

Of course, I know the center cannot be ideally placed. HT design is simultaneously dealing with a hundred compromises, at least it seems to me sometimes.

It was just a thought/idea to experiment with. Try it. We can blabber all day long, but instead, you can take 10 minutes of listening, flipping them upside down, which requires zero rewiring or heavy lifting or any other great effort, and see what you think. FWIW, I don't always recommend this experiment. I've actually recommended the opposite before in a dedicated garage theater, because the tweeters/drivers were too low after the person's initial effort in getting the drivers on the same plane. I only offered it after I took a specific gander of your first pic. Good luck!
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
I too have heard that about these speakers, but as you said, I don't drive them too hard. The room is not that large anyways, so the volume doesn't have to be that high to fill the space.

Could you please explain to me what you mean when you say that being on axis will yield best results? I'm an audio newb, so I don't know what the term means and why it is better for nearfield speakers.
When a speaker is measured for the nominal frequency response, it is generally measured on-axis, which means directly in front of the speaker. Speakers have different levels of what is called 'off-axis' responses, that is how flat their frequency response is when they aren't aimed at you.

Some speakers are designed to have pretty flat frequency response off-axis, like in home theater applications, whereas a lot of studio monitors are less focused on that because they are generally used only on-axis or near on-axis.

The truth is, it's just worth playing with. Move them around a bit and see what you think sounds the best, our hunch is just that if you aim them well you'll get some extra benefit... likely in imaging and soundstage.
 
G

Ginsu543

Enthusiast
Thanks for the explanation. That was really helpful. Another question, what do you mean by flat frequency response? How do you tell when a speaker has a flat response? What other kinds of responses are there (sharp? live?)? Does this have to do with how "wide" or "narrow" the sound projection is coming out of the speaker? And while we're at it, could you please explain what "nearfield" means exactly?

Thank you for taking the time. I feel like Alice going down the rabbithole, learning all kinds of new things since starting this project.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks for the explanation. That was really helpful. Another question, what do you mean by flat frequency response? How do you tell when a speaker has a flat response? What other kinds of responses are there (sharp? live?)? Does this have to do with how "wide" or "narrow" the sound projection is coming out of the speaker? And while we're at it, could you please explain what "nearfield" means exactly?

Thank you for taking the time. I feel like Alice going down the rabbithole, learning all kinds of new things since starting this project.
I'll oversimplify a tad, but....

Sound is made up of frequencies measured in cycles per second (Hz) or how many times the driver of the speaker moves back and forth making sound. I.e. An audio signal with a frequency of 1000Hz (1kHz) undergoes 1000 cycles of sine wave (think of rolling waves in the ocean, that's how a sine wave looks).

Frequency response is the amplitude (how much) as a function of frequency.

A speakers job is to reproduce recorded sound, so it should make the same amount of sound at every frequency.... when you graph the frequency versus amplitude on a graph, if the response is even, then it looks "flat" like a table top.

Speakers intended to be studio monitors, like yours, generally have 'flat' response. This is because when audio is mixed, the studio will overcompensate by the inverse of loudspeaker or equipment deficiencies. Meaning, if there is too much treble, the sound engineer will turn down the treble in the mix... but then when they are played outside of the studio other speakers, there won't be enough treble! The studios job is to make a good sounding mix on neutral/flat speakers, then if people want to EQ it after the fact they can (or their speakers can by their nature).

High end speakers generally also go for flat frequencies response, whereas mass market speakers tend to have a little bloat in places to make them sound 'better.'

How wide or narrow sound coming from a speaker has to do with its design and purpose. A speaker intended for fill loudspeakers in a club, for example, might be designed to have a very wide pattern, whereas a home audiophile speaker might have a narrower dispersion.

Nearfield monitors tend to be a bit narrower (I say 'tend' because I'm generalizing), because the idea of a nearfield monitor is to sit close to them (or 'near the field of sound' I guess you could say). The idea of sitting close in a studio is that if the sound hits your ears first, before the room, you'll hear more of the direct sound and less of the colored sound of the room. Like in my little "studio" I can reach and touch my monitors from the seated position.

This is especially helpful in project studios, but big studios use them too. The advantage of a bit of a narrower dispersion is that sound gets reflected off the walls later in time, perhaps in an easier place to use absorption and farther in time from where your trying to hear to mix, and the opposite ear hears less of the direct sound. Larger theaters typically have speakers with a bit wider of dispersion because that enlarges the 'sweet spot' ... or where imaging (how well you can place the sound) is good. Nearfields tend to have a bit of a tendency to cause you to have to keep your head very centered to have good imaging, but now I'm overgeneralizing (and rambling..are you still reading? :)) so I'll stop.

As far as learning, don't get a discouraged... have fun and learn as you wish. You have an awesome start, enjoy it. As you listen more, and hear more speakers and different rooms, you'll start to become able to hear differences among speakers. Its a mixture of learning and experience... but, the most important thing is fun and enjoying the music and movies!
 
G

Ginsu543

Enthusiast
Thank you, MidnightSensi, for taking the time to give me that clear explanation. Wow, that helped a lot! Now I understand what it means for speakers to have a flat response and all those graphs I've been seeing on various audiophile websites make sense.

Frequency response is the amplitude (how much) as a function of frequency.

A speakers job is to reproduce recorded sound, so it should make the same amount of sound at every frequency.... when you graph the frequency versus amplitude on a graph, if the response is even, then it looks "flat" like a table top.
I'm assuming here that on this graph frequency is the x-axis and the amplitude is the y-axis. Did I get that right?

Speakers intended to be studio monitors, like yours, generally have 'flat' response. This is because when audio is mixed, the studio will overcompensate by the inverse of loudspeaker or equipment deficiencies. Meaning, if there is too much treble, the sound engineer will turn down the treble in the mix... but then when they are played outside of the studio other speakers, there won't be enough treble! The studios job is to make a good sounding mix on neutral/flat speakers, then if people want to EQ it after the fact they can (or their speakers can by their nature).

High end speakers generally also go for flat frequencies response, whereas mass market speakers tend to have a little bloat in places to make them sound 'better.'
Since the speakers I have have a flat response, will I get the best performance out of them by playing them as they are, or is there another way to get them to sound "better?"

How wide or narrow sound coming from a speaker has to do with its design and purpose. A speaker intended for fill loudspeakers in a club, for example, might be designed to have a very wide pattern, whereas a home audiophile speaker might have a narrower dispersion.

Nearfield monitors tend to be a bit narrower (I say 'tend' because I'm generalizing), because the idea of a nearfield monitor is to sit close to them (or 'near the field of sound' I guess you could say). The idea of sitting close in a studio is that if the sound hits your ears first, before the room, you'll hear more of the direct sound and less of the colored sound of the room. Like in my little "studio" I can reach and touch my monitors from the seated position.
Since nearfield monitors like mine have a narrower dispersion pattern, how far apart or close together would give a good sound stage? I've read that the best speaker placement is to put them at two corners of an equilateral triangle with the listener at the third, but does this still hold true for nearfields as well? Do nearfields have to be in a little closer together to produce the best "sweet spot?"

As far as learning, don't get a discouraged... have fun and learn as you wish. You have an awesome start, enjoy it. As you listen more, and hear more speakers and different rooms, you'll start to become able to hear differences among speakers. Its a mixture of learning and experience... but, the most important thing is fun and enjoying the music and movies!
Thanks for all your encouragement and patience. I am really enjoying it. I'm basically in the process of saving some good speakers my Dad had, because he was just going to get rid of all of them. He initially had two JBL L100T's as mains and four Yamaha NS-10M's as satellites for a Pro-Logic fake surround system (he got all this equipment before discrete 5.1 was available). What I've done is separate the JBL's and the Yamahas. The JBL's I've used to set up a separate 2.0 stereo system for music listening (may add a sub later, but the JBL's do a pretty good job with bass). As you know I used the Yamahas for my 5.1. I've put one in the living room and the other in the family room, and now both spaces are used more.
 
son-yah-tive

son-yah-tive

Full Audioholic
That is a BEAUTIFUL room. The Yamaha's and the TV blend well with it. Man, I hate to sound like I need to suggest something, cause it's not my place. But, how about putting the Sub next to the couch on the right side. You may get more Bass, and hiding it may make it seem like all that sound is coming from the smaller speakers. And it may create more flow in the room. But, I'm no expert, that's for sure.;)
 
G

Ginsu543

Enthusiast
Thanks for your kind words. Actually, when I started thinking about how I would lay out the room, my first thought was to put the sub exactly where you said, to the right, behind the couch, and out of sight. Unfortunately, when I started putting down furniture, there just wasn't enough room in that space for the sub to fit. So it ended up where it is now.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Thank you, MidnightSensi, for taking the time to give me that clear explanation. Wow, that helped a lot! Now I understand what it means for speakers to have a flat response and all those graphs I've been seeing on various audiophile websites make sense.
My pleasure!


I'm assuming here that on this graph frequency is the x-axis and the amplitude is the y-axis. Did I get that right?
Yup!

And if you ever see something called a 'waterfall' ...it's x-axis for amplitude, y-axis for frequency, and z-axis for time.



Since the speakers I have have a flat response, will I get the best performance out of them by playing them as they are, or is there another way to get them to sound "better?"

Since nearfield monitors like mine have a narrower dispersion pattern, how far apart or close together would give a good sound stage? I've read that the best speaker placement is to put them at two corners of an equilateral triangle with the listener at the third, but does this still hold true for nearfields as well? Do nearfields have to be in a little closer together to produce the best "sweet spot?"
Like josten said, we can recommend, but the best thing you can do is just play with placing them and see where you like them the best. My intuition tells me that those speakers might like to be closer to a wall to boost the low end a bit and compensate for their low end roll-off. They are at -3dB at 70Hz, so if your crossover is at the typical 80Hz from the sub, to have a smooth transition a little room gain from the wall might be helpful. But, it is hard to say for sure without trying it.

You can try toeing them in and out and see what you like the sound best with. With those, I'd think they'd benefit for some toe-in (pointed directly at you) because of how their highs roll off.

Play with some different placements, you might find some interesting changes as you move the speakers around. Try them near the walls, out from the walls, toe in, toe out... see what you like the best.
 
G

Ginsu543

Enthusiast
I'll give your suggestions a try. Another question, if you please. My sub allows me to set the crossover point from 40Hz to 140Hz (at least I think it does). Currently, I have it set at 80Hz. Would it be better to have it set higher or lower?
 
caper26

caper26

Full Audioholic
Some sites report setting crossover to nearly twice the bottom end freq response, but most agree that is too high. I think most "companies" report their freq response in the speaker specs a little too generously. My Energy's are rated to 60 Hz, and I have my crossover set to 100, as they definitely to not perform well at 60, and even slightly above. Also, you lessen the load on your amp with a slightly higher CO, since those freq's are directed to the sub (speaker option set to "small" in your receiver). The drawback is that the higher the crossover, the more localized your LFE becomes. Simply try difference settings and see what you like best. There is no exact right/wrong answer for the most part...
 
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