Upgrade: b&w 602 S2 to Nautilus 803???

[aszatk01]

Been looking to upgrade: anything from 803S to 805S to Salk ST or HT2's

Opportunity to purchase the older nautilus 803's for around 2k locally...a good deal per audiogon standards.

So...aside from the fuller range of the speaker compared to my monitor, should I expect sonic differences in the upper register as compared to mine?

Also I realize these aren't the "best for your buck" speakers and get poor reviews compared to the newer S and D versions.
So for MSRP yes there is much better to be had, but for 2k is it a smart choice?

Thanks

 

[aszatk01]

or for around the same price 805S with my sub (b&w ASW600) should come close?
--for my small space i'd actually prefer the look of the 805s on stands

 

[manlystanley]

Been looking to upgrade: anything from 803S to 805S to Salk ST or HT2's

Opportunity to purchase the older nautilus 803's for around 2k locally...a good deal per audiogon standards.

So...aside from the fuller range of the speaker compared to my monitor, should I expect sonic differences in the upper register as compared to mine?

Also I realize these aren't the "best for your buck" speakers and get poor reviews compared to the newer S and D versions.
So for MSRP yes there is much better to be had, but for 2k is it a smart choice?

Thanks

I had a pair of Nautilus 803's for an extended home trial. For my taste, they were way to bright. I've heard that the D series have really warmed things up.

There are so many speakers available, why limit yourself to B&W and Salk? I'm currently doing a big listening room upgrade using Owens Corning 703 sound boards. It's amazing the difference that they make. I've come to the conclusion that I've been listening to 'the room' and not my stereo.

I'd suggest that you first upgrade your room with acoustic room treatments, then you can actually hear what the speakers sound like. Then try out other speakers besides the most popular. Everyone's ears, rooms and electronic equipment is different. You might find musical nirvana with a lesser know speaker.

Best Regards,
Stan

 

[aszatk01]

Hard to say whether acoustical treatment is necessary in my room?
The room is basically square and the entire back wall is basically covered with a big sofa and chair. Thick microfiber cushions taking up 80% of the back wall....

 

[aszatk01]

I get what you're saying about testing many speakers.
While I'm not limited to any brand--testing is an issue. Don't have the time/energy to buy, return, yada yada....

 

[manlystanley]

Hard to say whether acoustical treatment is necessary in my room?
The room is basically square and the entire back wall is basically covered with a big sofa and chair. Thick microfiber cushions taking up 80% of the back wall....

When I started my Audio hobby 2 years ago, I thought that anyone who would place room treatments treatments around there room was nuts. Now, I think that it's a huge waist of money to buy a high quality stereo and not treat the room.

You will want to treat: The first reflection points on the side walls and the front walls as well.

Square rooms are the worst offenders. My listening room was basically square and the room treatments I bought has had a huge effect on the sound. I can now listen at really low volume and it sounds just as good as high volume. Further, the bass and clarity are so much more improved.

Think about it and do some research. What are you trying to improve? Can this be improved by room treatments?

Best Regards,
Stan

 

[manlystanley]

I get what you're saying about testing many speakers.
While I'm not limited to any brand--testing is an issue. Don't have the time/energy to buy, return, yada yada....

The Nautilus 803's are beautiful speakers that have a huge following. I thought I'd love mine when I got them, but was shocked by how bright and irritating they were. But, to each his own, you might think otherwise.


You are correct, time/energy is a huge problem. I'm very sick of looking for speakers. My Jamo's are my fourth set of speakers. I'm glad I found them, but boy it was a pain.

Best Regards,
Stan

 

[aszatk01]

anyone else? I'm about to go audition them. but hard because differnet location other than mine...

 

[PENG]

anyone else? I'm about to go audition them. but hard because differnet location other than mine...

Sure, I like the 802D, but upgrading from 602, even the 804S will make a good difference for you.

 

[rolski]

I went from 604S3's to N803's - an extraordinary & surprising change in quality to be honest, not only in sound but in fit & finish too.

There are of course the obvious differences - the improvement in tech is what you're paying for after all - but the bass is much more precise, the mid-range definition is in a totally different league and the high-freq finishes off the "picture" very well indeed.
I think that the largest improvement by far though comes from the FST driver - if you hear the speakers in a decent set-up + room it'll really impress you.

Some years later I moved to 802D's & am just about to "upgrade" to 802Di's - but that's a story for another day !

To those who say they're "too bright" or "too this / too that", I say nonsense (IMHO of course !) - they're just extraordinarily clean transducers that reproduce the signal they're given exceptionally well. If you don't like what you're hearing, then in truth you don't like what you're feeding it - but each to their own - I prefer the raw detail & to know that the raw material's of poor quality more than having any colouration whatsoever - but that's just me !

 

[manlystanley]

To those who say they're "too bright" or "too this / too that", I say nonsense (IMHO of course !) -

In looking through your list of electronics, one has to be impressed. Just your DVD player (e.g. TAG McLaren Audio DVD32R PSM192) has a MSRP of over $10,000! (e.g. http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/tag-mclaren-audio/dvd-players/dvd32r-psm192/PRD_327464_1587crx.aspx )

Now comparing our two systems, my compete set of electronics cost less then $2,000. Also, 'cheaper' equipment does tend to be brighter. Mere mortals cannot afford to buy equipment that has the finesse to match the performance of systems that cost greater then $30,000.

So, keeping all things the same, swapping out a pair of b&w 602 S2's with a Natailus 803's (assuming the person has a AVR or medium level separates) IMVHO is not the best match.

Secondly, what type of room conditioning does the person have? I would think that for your system, you have some sort of room conditioning. Even in my system I've have nine large Owens Corning 703 sound absorbers to lower the reflections and to serve as bass traps. Again, plugging in a pair of 803's in a unconditioned room with medium level electronics is not a fair comparison with your system.

Best Regards,
Stan

 

[rolski]

plugging in a pair of 803's in a unconditioned room with medium level electronics is not a fair comparison with your system.

Stan,
I understand what you're saying, but I don't completely agree and I'll try to explain why.

Firstly (and perhaps unfairly) you've made me think back (and hard !) - I should have mentioned that my system changed from the DM604S3's & a Denon 3802 Receiver to the N803's, and then some of the TAG McLaren kit, which has been subsequently added to over the years. And it has been a real evolution, so I've been able to compare components over a reasonable period of time.
By the way, the TAG DVD player never ever cost that much - even when it first came out - but it's still a "fair call" as it wasn't cheap ! No idea where the reviewer got his price from....
Also, I demo'd the change in speakers at my dealer as well which is when / where I decided to go for the significant upgrade - and they also operate a reasonable trade-in programme which encouraged me just a little....

In short, with the experiences I've had I think I'm able to say that, with medium-level electronics, the difference in speakers that the OP's alluding to will be very very audibly significant indeed - but let's wait & see if that's also his conclusion after his audition ! But again, remember that this is my opinion which anyone can take or leave....

Also, to set the scene a little, my room isn't very big & I've only treated the first reflections. This is because my room's very "busy" so there's not really any space for more absorbers, but also because my TAG processor has room-correction - one of the reasons I almost bankrupted myself (again !) to buy it.

Finally, over the last 2 weeks I've had to lose room-correction & a "link in the chain" as my TAG processor went "pop" and my dealer has loaned me a Rotel RSP-1570 while the TAG's being repaired.
Thus, no speaker change for me, but a hardware change. The sources have of course all stayed the same, and the power amplification too, but the "hub" is different - and there is a change in the sound to my ears (compared to my TAG with the correction switched off). Now, I can't tell you how much (to my perception) the sound quality has degraded : 5% ? 20% or 50% ? I don't know - because is "quality" really measurable ? However, it has changed - perceptibly, but only a little.
And of course we're talking about 802D's, which are again a step above the N803's.

Now, before people shout "expensive kit & only a little change = proven madness !?" then I accept and actually only expected a small change with the Rotel anyway, because you can demonstrate & measure that in any system the speakers have the most influence on sound - which is obviously connected to the room's acoustic behaviour, with the sources coming next & the amplification hopefully coming last. Don't even get me started on cables !
I say amplification last because an amplifier shouldn't have any "sound" at all - that's colouration - and in my book (again, only personally) that's totally wrong. To clarify with a common example, some people like Sonus Faber speakers & McIntosh amps because they sound "smoother / warmer". Well, that's because of their design - and it's deliberate - but the facts are that they're designed to change the signal that they're fed & output something else.
My goal is to hear what's on the disk or whatever source / software I'm feeding my kit from - I want total transparency - that's my aim - and that's why I've gone for B&W speakers + TAG McLaren electronics. If something sounds awful on my system, I want to know about it !

So, like I say, let's wait & see what the OP thinks - after all, at the end of the day, it's all about personal enjoyment and everyone's different - but as a logical / rational / skeptical person (yes, I'm an Engineer !), I try to be as objective & unbiased as possible - and of course I try to be helpful too !

 

[aszatk01]

thank you both for the commentary as it's been an interesting read.

unfortunately the seller is a bit slow on emailing so there hasn't been an audition yet so stay tuned!!

 

[PENG]

I went from 604S3's to N803's - an extraordinary & surprising change in quality to be honest, not only in sound but in fit & finish too.

There are of course the obvious differences - the improvement in tech is what you're paying for after all - but the bass is much more precise, the mid-range definition is in a totally different league and the high-freq finishes off the "picture" very well indeed.
I think that the largest improvement by far though comes from the FST driver - if you hear the speakers in a decent set-up + room it'll really impress you.

Some years later I moved to 802D's & am just about to "upgrade" to 802Di's - but that's a story for another day !

To those who say they're "too bright" or "too this / too that", I say nonsense (IMHO of course !) - they're just extraordinarily clean transducers that reproduce the signal they're given exceptionally well. If you don't like what you're hearing, then in truth you don't like what you're feeding it - but each to their own - I prefer the raw detail & to know that the raw material's of poor quality more than having any colouration whatsoever - but that's just me !

Even the 804 impressed me. I thought they were especially great with brass. I suspect people who consider the 800 series bright probably would not enjoy live concerts either.

 

[manlystanley]

Even the 804 impressed me. I thought they were especially great with brass. I suspect people who consider the 800 series bright probably would not enjoy live concerts either.

No, actually I go to many live concerts and greatly enjoy them. In fact, one of my daughters (two summers ago) sang in a professional German opera company and this summer was given a scholarship into one of the top music programs in Europe. I've gone often to hear her sing in many productions.

I still think it is poor advice to assume that swapping out a pair of 602's for 803's will yield superior sound. We'll see what the OP has to say.

Best Regards,
Stan

 

[adwilk]

I still think it is poor advice to assume that swapping out a pair of 602's for 803's will yield superior sound.

Really? Its a superior design with superior drivers. I think its actually quite safe to assume that the 803's will more accurately reproduce the sound. Does that mean the OP will like them more? Perhaps not and maybe that's what you meant....

You continue to use the "bright" term and even that is extremely subjective- coming from a guy that sports Jamo and Klipsch. Bright can mean a lot of different things. I do understand your emphasis on room treatments, but I think as you progress towards an eventual "end", better speakers are a wise investment. Whether or not thats the 803's I guess we'll see.

 

[aszatk01]

thanks again all for the support... I should be listening to them tonight.

My last question:
My room is rather small (13x14') and don't have room to get the speakers more than 8'' off the rear wall. Are these just going to be too darn big for my room? Both pure dimension of the speakers and also for the listening space being able to handle the bass?

I don't know what type of listening environment I'll be hearing them in tonight...but unless it's very similar to mine it's going to be hard to tell...

 

[aszatk01]

...oh and if they're too big and I want to lean towards 805S's should I expect the same frequency response (ie same bass response) as my 602's since they're basically the same size?

 

[rolski]

I still think it is poor advice to assume that swapping out a pair of 602's for 803's will yield superior sound. We'll see what the OP has to say.

Stan,
This is a classic case of why people should read & digest very carefully what's written on the internet & do lots & lots of research & testing of their own - and make up their own mind themselves.
What people like or don't like (and write on fora) is almost always subjective, and opinion. This can be agreed with, absorbed, or ignored at will, but most people seem to have forgotten that simple edict.

However, people are entitled to their own beliefs, but not their own facts.
And yes, I know I'm treading on thin ice here talking about a usually subjective hobby in very objective terms, but bear with me !

The N803 are a far superior speaker to the 600-range. Fact. It's physics. It's undeniable. The N803 will transduce more of the signal it's fed than the 602 - it's not just clearly measurable, it's what it was designed (well) for & it's part of the reason for it's existence ! Don't shoot me down in flames here, and we're going a little off-topic, but B&W (and everyone else) usually has a range of speakers which all have a different price point & different manufacturing costs simply because that's "business" - if they re-boxed the 602 drivers in the 800 cabinets then they'd be found out & ridiculed sooner or later - like Lexicon were with the Oppo BDP-83 Blu-ray player - and they'd lose customers.

Now, granted, the OP may not like what they (eventually !) hear - that's up to them - and they may prefer something else as you seem to - thousands of people who are also lucky enough to be able to express a preference have also bought "other" speakers - but the fact remains that there are significant mechanical differences between the 602 & the N803 which result in a different sound. If you have other evidence, please say so.
But, in a small room, he may find that they actually seem to be boomier than the 602's - because the bass will be much more precise & cleaner and as a result excite some room modes "more efficiently" - or perhaps not. We can calculate the room modes quite accurately but until the speakers are installed the effects of all the furniture & other "stuff" can only really be guessed at - which is both a potential problem & a shame these days as it's rare to be able to test at home. But, the possibility does remain that the "technically superior" speaker (is that a good description for the sake of argument ?) might not be to his liking for many different reasons - just like some people don't like hearing the brutal truth of the music that they're actually playing !

I find it hard to separate "superior sound" from more detail / clarity / precision etc, but perhaps our understanding is different & we'll have to agree to disagree ?

However, now the target seems to have moved & we're talking about 805S's instead.
Now, this is partially opinion & extrapolation as I've only heard 805Di's, powered by very expensive amplification in a very large & well treated room (a demo I attended), but again I know for sure that the tech in the 805S is far superior to the 602 and will also produce a far more detailed sound in the same environment - it's simple & undeniable physics. However, the non-FST midrange driver of the 805S will definitely not be as detailed as the FST-midrange driver on the N803. And then of course there's the bass.... Whether or not the OP likes the 805S is up to him....

Let's watch this space & see what happens !

 

[PENG]

I still think it is poor advice to assume that swapping out a pair of 602's for 803's will yield superior sound. We'll see what the OP has to say.

Best Regards,
Stan

You are entitled to your opinion. If you think I, or others offered poor advice on the 803, I personally would take this opportunity to clarify that I did not intend to offer advice on what speakers to buy, but just to share my own experience, that is not based on hearsays. I actually thought anyone who read my post would know that but obviously I was wrong.

The OP asked about B&W 803, and I happened to have auditioned the 800 series from 805 up to the 802D extensively. I have also heard the 803 and 804 powered by just a receiver.