The Dawg Crusher Killer

[MidnightSensi]

Not true, the limiters are designed to kick in to prevent over excursion, he is trying to pressurize an extremely large room of 8500^3. 1 F113 will not provide the amount of output that he is looking for, he is over driving that sub to get the output he is looking for and he clearly stated that the Axis had no problems at the same volume.

There have been plenty of people that have experienced the farting with these subs, it is well documented in the F112 and F113 threads over at AVS.

Trust me, I know all about pushing the limits of drivers in sealed box designs in the same size room. Ported or PR designs will give you better output from the same size drivers with less effort, but not everyone can live with the size boxes it takes.

Well, limiters don't know anything about excursion. The sub may be power limited or excursion limited, but the limiter is just programmed/designed to limit signal at a certain point to prevent either clipping, or, when you know the driver its working with, driver overexcursion.

I saw something once that said you can choose two: loud, small, low.

I bet those JL's are going to sound /great/ ... I just think a noisey limiter is bullshit at that cost!

 

[jostenmeat]

What would you use for an external limiter?

May not matter once the 2nd sub arrives. I was running a tad to hot.

Dawg, what are you using for BDP? It used to be a PS3, yeah? Whatever is doing the decoding, either Denon receiver, or player, you must disengage "DRC".

TrueHD tracks have what is called an autoflagged DRC. Normally, it shouldn't be this kind of issue, even though I still prefer it off with everything, The Dark Knight, you name it.

However, Iron Man is easily, by far, the most infamously horrible implementation of this autoflagged DRC.

Disengage, try again.

The worst BD for hitting limits, so far that I have read (not heard, or seen), is Pulse. Lemme go see what the track is on there.

You can see here that I've brought up this particular movie's issue before. (I've brought it up many times, like in 20 threads, since it came out, what, 1.5 years ago?)
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=477293#post477293

 

[MidnightSensi]

Dawg, what are you using for BDP? It used to be a PS3, yeah? Whatever is doing the decoding, either Denon receiver, or player, you must disengage "DRC".

TrueHD tracks have what is called an autoflagged DRC. Normally, it shouldn't be this kind of issue, even though I still prefer it off with everything, The Dark Knight, you name it.

However, Iron Man is easily, by far, the most infamously horrible implementation of this autoflagged DRC.

Disengage, try again.

The worst BD for hitting limits, so far that I have read (not heard, or seen), is Pulse. Lemme go see what the track is on there.

You can see here that I've brought up this particular movie's issue before. (I've brought it up many times, like in 20 threads, since it came out, what, 1.5 years ago?)
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=477293#post477293

DRC is compression, a bit different than the fixed limiting he needs.

Good reminder about the PS3 setting. Isn't it amazing that we get these great formats with huge dynamic range, and then they autoflag it to compress it again?

 

[Rickster71]

What would you use for an external limiter?

In your case it would be on the Tequila bottle.
Preferably a Partida bottle.

 

[Warpdrv]

Well, limiters don't know anything about excursion. The sub may be power limited or excursion limited, but the limiter is just programmed/designed to limit signal at a certain point to prevent either clipping, or, when you know the driver its working with, driver overexcursion.

I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense, you just contradicted youself here.... JL designed the subs so they wouldn't bottom out, which means over excursion.

 

[MidnightSensi]

I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense, you just contradicted youself here.... JL designed the subs so they wouldn't bottom out, which means over excursion.

I'm a bit sleepy today, so, I'm probably just not making sense and getting off topic. What I'm saying is the limiter itself doesn't understand driver overexcursion, it's just understands limiting signal. A lot of times limiters are set right at the threshold to get that extra dB of measurement, but no limiter knee is hard enough to handle right on the limit. The noise that people may hear is probably the driver just /barely/ running out of extension and tapping.

I think we are saying the same thing. It's hitting the limiter. But what I'm saying is the limiter shouldn't 'fart' or make any funny noises.

 

[Stereodude]

About $700 less than a PB13, and maybe 4x the output, and leaves just about anything except a rotary sub in the dust as far as extension. (11hz ground plane.)

Any chance you can provide any owner measurements to back up that claim?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Remember, I fully understood the compromises before going this route. I never thought the JL would hang with the AXIS, that's why I am going with 2 JLs as I think that will get close.

I still use PS3.

I still think the JL sounds better with music and lower volume movies for some reason.

 

[Warpdrv]

I think we are saying the same thing. It's hitting the limiter. But what I'm saying is the limiter shouldn't 'fart' or make any funny noises.

No worries sleepy head....

This has come up a few times with the F113, where it sounds like a percolating coffee maker type noise / or heavy flapping of the driver with heavy material, but a second F113 will be adding 3db which should help with pushing things too hard, but IMO that room needs more subs or at least bigger ones...

If the DAWG is anything like me, he likes to push things hard - rockin and rollin....

 

[jostenmeat]

ParadigmDawg, sorry about the hijack. Stereodude, if you desire to continue discussion, you may feel free to do so at this thread, so that we can leave the Dawg's thread be, for now:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64974

Any chance you can provide any owner measurements to back up that claim?

About $700 less than a PB13,

I will not provide you my bank statement.

and maybe 4x the output

Did you want me to try to hunt this down too, for you?

and leaves just about anything except a rotary sub in the dust as far as extension.

While excited, I used the word "about" for an extremely specific reason.

(11hz ground plane.)

I will look for this one, but the one I came across might not have been by an owner. Owners typically don't do ground plane, so far that I have seen, but in-room, and people are claiming 6-8hz there. I just plugged in 7hz as keyword and have got a number of hits, and I think the most promising route to find some measurements to appease you would be through "MKtheater", as he seems to be very willing to share:

Of course I will give them a fair comparison. I know it will be hard to beat when spl, extension, visceral effects, etc... is considered. I may have my sealed subs here anyway for an A/B but minus one sub(I have 7 right now).

Bosso,

What graphs would you like? I just took a graph of my subs in full range and with an 80 crossover and it seems no matter what my subs start falling off at 60 hz. They would extend lower but my cal files only go to 7 hz and why you start seeing the drop there. I ran a high level sine wave sweep and I hit 120 db's at 7hz, 124 db's at 11 hz(peak), and then about 118 db's from 40-60hz. No EQ involved. To say source material is easy is an understatement if They can handle these sine waves.

If it really matters that much to you, I can try asking him on your behalf. I did not run search functions for either 6hz or 8hz.

OK, I found one graph, but I am not sure who did it, it might be Danley . . . but . . . I don't know. Or it might belong to an owner named "brandonnash".

this is the outdoor measurement. . . .
It's a little hard to read, but the corner frequency at the bottom is 10.9 hz at 89.8 db. 25hz is almost right at 100 db and up at the 80-100 hz range it's in the 110 db range.

I highly doubt you care for this one, but since you're sending me on this chase, might as well. This graph belongs to an Audioholic member, tcarcio.

 

[jostenmeat]

Stereodude, so you're already familiar with the thread, as I presume you've posted there already. But, there is the chance that someone else is using the same handle as you are too I suppose.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18212994&highlight=#post18212994

If you want to teach me something, feel free. I welcome enlightening thoughts, assuming that I can understand them to begin with, however.

 

[Stereodude]

I was actually referring to the "and leaves just about anything except a rotary sub in the dust as far as extension. (11hz ground plane.)" comment since the others are rather abstract. The measurements you posted seem to show it's at least 10dB down at 11Hz and probably more like 15dB down at 11Hz. The DTS-10 while impressive is by no means second only to a rotary sub in terms of low end extension. It's a horn and excels at efficiency in its passband. 11Hz is well below it's passband, and as such it's certainly not a infrasonic monster like the rotary sub. In fact I'd argue that it's a poor infrasonic subwoofer since most harmonic distortion of infrasonic frequencies will occur in the passband and could yield over 100% THD. I also haven't seen any owners posting graphs showing flat in room extension into single digits either like I have with the Seaton Sound Submersive (or other sealed subs without HPF's) though I'll admit I haven't followed it all that closely either.

BTW, you are correct that I have posted in the thread at AVS about it. But I haven't drank the Kool-aide just yet. There's also no reason for me to go rain on the parade of owners. I realize it's the new hotness, but it certainly isn't the be all end all of subwoofers.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

To be honest, I don't listen to loud music or movies but I do like to show off at very high levels.

My normal listening is around -26 with the AVR calibrated with "0" = 75db.

On occasion I will turn music up to -18. When people want to "hear what this thing will do", I will go up to "0".

My music is mostly Jazz and acoustic rock / indie.

No worries sleepy head....

This has come up a few times with the F113, where it sounds like a percolating coffee maker type noise / or heavy flapping of the driver with heavy material, but a second F113 will be adding 3db which should help with pushing things too hard, but IMO that room needs more subs or at least bigger ones...

If the DAWG is anything like me, he likes to push things hard - rockin and rollin....

 

[Warpdrv]

Thats cool.... I don't always push the limits with my rig either, but I sure like to stretch the legs on it from time to time thats for sure.....

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Opps.....

I maybe wrong on this. The JL is awesome and sounds great but it just doesn't push the volume for the size of my room. I am afraid a second one may not either. Dang, I wanted this to work.

I may go back to DIY. Anyone looking for an awesome sub for a small to moderates size room?

Only 10 hours on it and I will let it go for 2k plus shipping.

Thats cool.... I don't always push the limits with my rig either, but I sure like to stretch the legs on it from time to time thats for sure.....

 

[GO-NAD!]

Opps.....

I maybe wrong on this. The JL is awesome and sounds great but it just doesn't push the volume for the size of my room. I am afraid a second one may not either. Dang, I wanted this to work.

I may go back to DIY. Anyone looking for an awesome sub for a small to moderates size room?

Only 10 hours on it and I will let it go for 2k plus shipping.

Holy Crap, Man!! If I had your money, I'd burn mine!

 

[Warpdrv]

HAHAHAHH

I told you so.... The difficulty of trying to find something that is not extremely huge and stands out, but has tons of output has been a long journey for me and alot of work..

You have to figure out what size box you are willing to deal with...

 

[mike c]

damn you. tell me that's 110v

 

[Warpdrv]

damn you. tell me that's 110v

Pretty sure they are all 120vac..... page 21 of the owners manual here... http://home.jlaudio.com/pdfs/10456.pdf

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Opps.....

I maybe wrong on this. The JL is awesome and sounds great but it just doesn't push the volume for the size of my room. I am afraid a second one may not either. Dang, I wanted this to work.

I may go back to DIY. Anyone looking for an awesome sub for a small to moderates size room?

Only 10 hours on it and I will let it go for 2k plus shipping.

You need to buy 3 more right away!

I would get 7 more but 4 total is a good starting point. 2 stacks of 4 would fix the problem for sure.

just sayin'...