B&W Nautilus vs Sonus Faber Cremonas

[Seth=L]

The 802 is an acoustically neutral monitor, one of those most neutral you can buy. Because the speaker is neutral you can tailor it to sound the way you want it too with a good EQ. Maybe it's a stretch to say it would sound exactly like a Sonus Faber Cremona, it would be hard to recreate it's exact sound. However, you could certainly tailor it to have a "darker" sound.

 

[3db]

The 802 is an acoustically neutral monitor, one of those most neutral you can buy.,.....QUOTE]

That you know of. I'm sure there are others as well ...

 

[greggp2]

I appreciate the responses here guys. I have a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors that I recently bought for my bedroom.

I auditioned the Cremona M's recently In comparing them to my B&W's the B&W's are just very much "in your face" presentation. I get listening fatigue very quickly when listening to them and so does my girlfriend.

The Sonus however are much more laid back, they seem smoother, more like you have a performance going on in front of you on a stage.

The B&W's seem to push the presentation more toward you and I constantly find myself lowering the treble, while the Sonus Faber's are the opposite. Does it make sense that I have to run treble at -3 or -5 on the B&W's? I then feel like the mid's and highs get washed out...

The other side to this, is that when you have to use an EQ to start playing with the sound of the speaker, how pure is that? The whole point of this is to have what was naturally recorded presented, right? If you need to start electronically enhancing that for music, doesn't it defeat the whole point?

Just playing devil's advocate here, but after setting up the Auditors last night on my main system, I'm not so sure I really like the sound of the B&W's in comparison. This is a real problem for me now, because it means I might have to sell all the B&W speakers and go shopping for new Cremona's and a Cremona Center for my front. I can always use my Auditors for my rears!

 

[TjMV3]

The B&W's seem to push the presentation more toward you and I constantly find myself lowering the treble, while the Sonus Faber's are the opposite. Does it make sense that I have to run treble at -3 or -5 on the B&W's? I then feel like the mid's and highs get washed out...

Yep, that's the B&W Sound ....The B&W Experience.

Some people love them, some people ....not so much. All personal preference and personal taste.

The other side to this, is that when you have to use an EQ to start playing with the sound of the speaker, how pure is that? The whole point of this is to have what was naturally recorded presented, right? If you need to start electronically enhancing that for music, doesn't it defeat the whole point?

What? You mean they're not the ultimate superior neutral (what ever that means) speaker, some claim them to be? Oh my

Go with what your ears love the most. Don't concern yourself with all the other nonsense.

Furthermore, with B&W being the ultimate in superiority; you should be able to sell them for close to what you paid. Superiority retains re-sale value

 

[Seth=L]

Does it make sense that I have to run treble at -3 or -5 on the B&W's? I then feel like the mid's and highs get washed out...

The Behringer EQ doesn't just have a treble and bass control, it's a very advanced equalizer, it only touches the parts that you want touched.

The other side to this, is that when you have to use an EQ to start playing with the sound of the speaker, how pure is that? The whole point of this is to have what was naturally recorded presented, right? If you need to start electronically enhancing that for music, doesn't it defeat the whole point?

The EQ is meant to give the listener a perceived natural sound. People find the 802s to be bright, and it's not because they are accentuated, it's because they are linear, many speakers intentionally dull the top end for the perceived natural sound. The 802s have been measured and proven to be one of the most accurate commercial monopole monitors you can buy for less than $20,000 a pair. If the OP has no desire to EQ, that's fine. I can understand that, I don't really have a desire to do that right now either. I'm just proposing an option other than replacing speakers that have nearly limitless potential.

What? You mean they're not the ultimate superior neutral (what ever that means) speaker, some claim them to be? Oh my

You are being very condescending. I wasn't impolite to you. I see no reason why you should feel it's necessary to be rude or cynical.

Go with what your ears love the most. Don't concern yourself with all the other nonsense.

My suggestion is not nonsense, and its more cost effective than selling the 802s and buying the Sonus Fabers. Imagine how much it would cost to ship the 802s properly and safely. Unless he can find a local buyer it's at least worth spending a couple hundred to at least try out the EQ, especially with your mentality in regards to letting the ears decide.

 

[AJinFLA]

The 802 is an acoustically neutral monitor

No it isn't. It has marginally linear on axis response. But loudspeakers are not amplifiers, with a single frequency response. To have "neutrality", one has to look at the entire polar field, power response and the speakers interaction with the room. The 802, like almost all "audiophile" loudspeakers, fails miserably in this respect. Take a look at the Stereophile measurements if you have any doubt.
And yes, I've heard them several times, in different settings.

 

[AJinFLA]

I auditioned the Cremona M's recently In comparing them to my B&W's the B&W's are just very much "in your face" presentation. I get listening fatigue very quickly when listening to them and so does my girlfriend.

That is because, at the listening position, you hear not only the direct, but a high level of the reverberant field of the loudspeaker. The off axis response of the B&W is rather poor. At the XO region between the tweeter and the mid, there is a huge mismatch in directivity, which leads to the "forwardness" of the presentation. Some would suggest absorbers on the sidewalls, but those are only band aids with their own problems, incapable of curing the source of the deficiency. EQ won't help much either, as the correction will be single point, but the issue is global.
Where in FL are you? There was a place in WPB that sold Sonus Faber, where I got to audition several models (years ago). Nice presentation overall, though not my personal cup of tea.

 

[TjMV3]

The Behringer EQ doesn't just have a treble and bass control, it's a very advanced equalizer, it only touches the parts that you want touched.



The EQ is meant to give the listener a perceived natural sound. People find the 802s to be bright, and it's not because they are accentuated, it's because they are linear, many speakers intentionally dull the top end for the perceived natural sound. The 802s have been measured and proven to be one of the most accurate commercial monopole monitors you can buy for less than $20,000 a pair. If the OP has no desire to EQ, that's fine. I can understand that, I don't really have a desire to do that right now either. I'm just proposing an option other than replacing speakers that have nearly limitless potential.



You are being very condescending. I wasn't impolite to you. I see no reason why you should feel it's necessary to be rude or cynical.



My suggestion is not nonsense, and its more cost effective than selling the 802s and buying the Sonus Fabers. Imagine how much it would cost to ship the 802s properly and safely. Unless he can find a local buyer it's at least worth spending a couple hundred to at least try out the EQ, especially with your mentality in regards to letting the ears decide.

Sorry, but that's the biggest bunch of bull I've seen being sliced up and tosswed around, in at least two to three weeks.

The 802's are linear? Are you kidding me?

 

[James NM]

Damn greggp2,

Sorry you got stuck with those sorry B&W speakers. Are they too big and/or heavy for garbage removal? Maybe you could pull the wiring out of them (scrap metal prices are up, you know), and since the cabinets are wood you can chop them up and burn them in your fireplace for warmth this winter. Sucks to be you!

 

[TjMV3]

Oh and by the way. Sonus Faber makes speakers that are less expensive. I guess no one else knows that. Funny no one else saw that as a vialble option, when the OP specifically and clearly stated that he prefered warmer, laid back presentations from his speakers.

Yeah, let's just focus on pushing more B & W

 

[greggp2]

Guys, thanks for the posts and I'm glad we are having a spirited debate about the speakers and options. Let's try to keep things objective though and not insult one another. I really appreciate everyone's posts though and really prefer not to get into having to sell speakers at this point. But the truth is, I'm not so sure that I like the 802's overall presentation after comparing them with the Sonus Fabers. I went to a dealer in Boca and he was great. I was very impressed with the Cremona M's and after listening to them and the 802's I feel like I could listen to the Cremona's for hours. The B&W's make my ears feel like they are going to bleed after about 30 minutes. I don't know if an EQ will fix that and I truthfully don't know if I would even know where to begin in trying to get an EQ to do that. I know Chris has offered his help and I really appreciate it. I might still take him up on it as well, but I don't know that any EQ is capable of changing the natural presentation of a speaker. I could be wrong on that though. I'm a hobbyist and no expert!

 

[WmAx]

I might still take him up on it as well, but I don't know that any EQ is capable of changing the natural presentation of a speaker. I could be wrong on that though. I'm a hobbyist and no expert!

If you do not accept my word on the subject, then who's can you believe?

The 802N's special features is that it has far less of a signature than most other speakers, because it is free of virtually any source of resonance, unlike most other speakers. Now, a speaker with resonance issues, you are right, you can not simply change that signature. But 802's signature is overall neutral. Two shelving EQ filters can correct and achieve the sound you want with the 802N. The Behringer DCX2496 is a very high performance/transparent unit suitable not only for thes special EQ filters, but also to transparently cross subwoofers over with the 802Ns. In addition, since accurate response plots exist for the 802N, you can also use two or three parametric filters to remove significant amplitude response non-linearities present in stock form.

Some one was complaining about the off axis performance of the 802N. Well, it has about average off axis performance, and with a simple narrow band effected (like on the 802N), it's not a big deal, compared to other standard monopolar speakers. Also, the 'percieved' effect, when wide enough in bandwidth, is not to produce 'forward' sound. The situation is not that simple.

The 802N has an overall flat response, with the treble being at 0 to 1db over average RMS midbass and mid-range power level. A flat treble response is not optimal for natural sound, as measured from the listening position, as shown b multiple perceptual researchers, including Floyd Toole. Another thing that causes lack of warmth is insufficient baffle step correction for the particular room acoustics/speaker placement. The two shelving filters I specified before using the DCX correct BOTH of these issues.

-Chris

 

[TjMV3]

If you do not accept my word on the subject, then who's can you believe?

His own ears

Your words apparently fell deaf to the reality of B&W's house sound, to his ears.

Can't say he's wrong.

 

[AJinFLA]

But the truth is, I'm not so sure that I like the 802's overall presentation after comparing them with the Sonus Fabers. I went to a dealer in Boca and he was great. I was very impressed with the Cremona M's and after listening to them and the 802's I feel like I could listen to the Cremona's for hours.

You should never compare by memory in different rooms. The only valid comparison is both speakers, optimally positioned, in your room.

The B&W's make my ears feel like they are going to bleed after about 30 minutes.

Then why did you buy them?
The looks? The price? The "audiophile" raves....based on looks and price? Was the (B&W) dealers room very wide/dead, with the speakers positioned well out into the room?

I don't know if an EQ will fix that and I truthfully don't know if I would even know where to begin in trying to get an EQ to do that.

I repeat (even if you don't understand), EQ at a single spatial position cannot correct a global power response problem. If the off axis tracked the on axis response, then you could.

I know Chris has offered his help and I really appreciate it. I might still take him up on it as well, but I don't know that any EQ is capable of changing the natural presentation of a speaker. I could be wrong on that though. I'm a hobbyist and no expert!

The latter is the reason for the majority of threads. Unfortunately, as with all online forums, the vast majority of those who post assertively are non-experts, though they are blissfully unaware. I'll ask again, where are you?
My philosophy is that "expert" talk is cheap (and even cheaper online). I can not only tell you, I can demonstrate for you, in person, exactly what I speak of. The choice is yours.

If you do not accept my word on the subject, then who's can you believe?

Books/websites - Sean Olive, Floyd Toole, Siegfried Linkwitz, Earl Geddes, JBL tech library, etc, etc.

The 802N's special features is that it has far less of a signature than most other speakers, because it is free of virtually any source of resonance, unlike most other speakers.

Please present you data to back this claim.
Here's mine:

What is your explanation for the severe deterioration of nearfield vs far farfield MF/HF response?
Answer: the diffraction effects of the tweeter "bullet" over the mid sphere and cone. The fancy looks come with an audible price. And diffraction is aubible...and uncorrectable with EQ.

But 802's signature is overall neutral.

Because Chris said so...or based on evidence/data?
Here's mine:

Look at the vertical scale. See the huge power flare at 5k. Just above the 4k tweeter crossover, where the 1" piston source is omni-directional...and the 6" piston source is severely directional. This is a global (power) problem. It cannot be corrected by single point EQ, shelving or otherwise.

Some one was complaining about the off axis performance of the 802N. Well, it has about average off axis performance, and with a simple narrow band effected (like on the 802N), it's not a big deal, compared to other standard monopolar speakers. Also, the 'percieved' effect, when wide enough in bandwidth, is not to produce 'forward' sound. The situation is not that simple.

So because it has terrible polar response like the majority of tragic cone 'n dome speakerboxes, it's no big deal? The fact that "forwardness" and "fatigue" is exactly what greg complains of...and exactly what is predicted by the measurements notwithstanding? Really?

The two shelving filters I specified before using the DCX correct BOTH of these issues.

Nope, sorry Chris, they cannot. A better understanding of the acoustic issues and what can be corrected by single point EQ is required. Btw, I have both a DEQ and DCX...and can demonstrate this to greg, in person, rather than in anything is possible cyberspace.
Choice is his.

cheers,

AJ

 

[WmAx]

I repeat (even if you don't understand), EQ at a single spatial position cannot correct a global power response problem. If the off axis tracked the on axis response, then you could.

The off axis response is similar to most speakers; not big disparity. Response in the +/- 30 degree range has no problem, and beyond that, unfortunately, just like most speakers, the lower mid-range dips in power. With EQ, this speaker can sound 'forward', 'recessed' or whatever you want from it.

The LF peak is not relevant, as J. Atkinson states that he doest not trust the LF response measurements he makes due to his particular methodology.

What is your explanation for the severe deterioration of nearfield vs far farfield MF/HF response?
Answer: the diffraction effects of the tweeter "bullet" over the mid sphere and cone. The fancy looks come with an audible price. And diffraction is aubible...and uncorrectable with EQ.

What is your explanation for not paying attention to the graphs you posted? The first one only covered the lower midrange band as it's highest frequency, where the second one covered the entire bandwidth. No such comparisoin exists as you presumed here. The design of the 802 mid/HF set up will actually result in minimum diffraction in most of the audible band. Using a tweeter in a small top mounted pad is an excellent solution to HF diffraction reduction.

Look at the vertical scale. See the huge power flare at 5k. Just above the 4k tweeter crossover, where the 1" piston source is omni-directional...and the 6" piston source is severely directional. This is a global (power) problem. It cannot be corrected by single point EQ, shelving or otherwise.

Hey, everyone knows I don't like most current speakers because I require extraordinary power response characteristics. But for a monopolar speaker retail, this is not much worse than most, and you are exaggerating the issue. Lke most monpolars, at the incident angle of 45 degrees and greater at the 1st reflection points on side walls, could use a high quality acoustic absorber panel.

-Chris

 

[AJinFLA]

The off axis response is similar to most speakers; not big disparity.

So poor design/performance is ok....because "most" speakers do this?

Response in the +/- 30 degree range has no problem, and beyond that, unfortunately, just like most speakers, the lower mid-range dips in power. With EQ, this speaker can sound 'forward', 'recessed' or whatever you want from it

So all the research of Toole at the NRC, Olive, Geddes, JBL, etc. stressing the audible importance of smooth off axis behavior is irrelevant, because "most" speakers exhibit no such response? A chaotic reverberant field is to be desired?
So how is the power flare at 5k to be resolved? Is it EQ, or the absorption band aid?

The LF peak is not relevant, as J. Atkinson states that he doest not trust the LF response measurements he makes due to his particular methodology.

Who said it was in that particular measurement?

The design of the 802 mid/HF set up will actually result in minimum diffraction in most of the audible band. Using a tweeter in a small top mounted pad is an excellent solution to HF diffraction reduction.

Really? So the omni-direction radiation of the baffle less tweeter won't reflect/diffract off the mid sphere and cone? And this speaker has no resonances and good off axis? Ok, so how do you explain this?

Hey, everyone knows I don't like most current speakers because I require extraordinary power response characteristics.

Such as?
What relevance does that have to the B&W 802?

But for a monopolar speaker retail, this is not much worse than most

So "not much worse than most" = "neutral"?
That is your evidence/data to support your claim of the 802 being "a neutral monitor"?

you are exaggerating the issue. Lke most monpolars, at the incident angle of 45 degrees and greater at the 1st reflection points on side walls, could use a high quality acoustic absorber panel.

So because a speaker exhibits "like most" polar and power behavior, it's excused? And "neutral"?
Btw, have you actually read Toole's book (or Geddes/Mouton, etc.) and what research has found about absorption and spaciousness/realism? Do you know what they recommend, regarding absorption, based on this research?

cheers,

AJ

 

[greggp2]

You should never compare by memory in different rooms. The only valid comparison is both speakers, optimally positioned, in your room.

I did initially, but also have a pair of Sonus Faber Auditors at home. Set them up in my main room, same cables, same location, etc. Much smoother sound, more laid back, just lacking in a little power, but they are bookshelf speakers, not full range. I think the full range will make a big difference in comparison.

Then why did you buy them?
The looks? The price? The "audiophile" raves....based on looks and price? Was the (B&W) dealers room very wide/dead, with the speakers positioned well out into the room?

I picked them up pre-owned and got a great deal on them. I then found the center and rears to match later. I only listened to them briefly at the person's house I purchased them at to ensure they were working. All in all, I was fairly happy with them, but would always find myself getting tired of listening to them after a short while. Until I recently compared them to the Faber's, I thought this was the way it was.. With all the great reviews and people online who raved about them, I figured, how could I go wrong? Everyone always says, Audition the speakers first and in a perfect World, that would happen. But let's face it, how many dealers are really still out there? Most don't have show rooms any more and even companies like Sound Advice are now gone! Going to Magnolia at my local Best Buy isn't what I'd consider an Audition. Most of the people that work there don't know their rear ends from their elbows and the speakers are never set up properly anyway...

I repeat (even if you don't understand), EQ at a single spatial position cannot correct a global power response problem. If the off axis tracked the on axis response, then you could.


The latter is the reason for the majority of threads. Unfortunately, as with all online forums, the vast majority of those who post assertively are non-experts, though they are blissfully unaware. I'll ask again, where are you?
My philosophy is that "expert" talk is cheap (and even cheaper online). I can not only tell you, I can demonstrate for you, in person, exactly what I speak of. The choice is yours.

How exactly will you do this? Do you come to someone's house with an EQ system and demo the difference? If so, what does that cost to do?

 

[bandphan]

So Greg, wanna skip all this bickering have a drink and install the DCX?

Taking the little girl out to lunch on friday and will be in the hills area

 

[greggp2]

So Greg, wanna skip all this bickering have a drink and install the DCX?

Taking the little girl out to lunch on friday and will be in the hills area

Do you have a DCX? I haven't purchased one, but would be up for it to try. I think I need more balanced connections though, as I only have enough to run from the processor to the Amp at this point.... I need to check my schedule though. I have 2 appts that day already, so we may need to try another time if I want to go this route.

Regardless though, we should definitely hook up and I really appreciate the offer. PM with your info and let's talk further.

 

[bandphan]

Do you have a DCX? I haven't purchased one, but would be up for it to try. I think I need more balanced connections though, as I only have enough to run from the processor to the Amp at this point.... I need to check my schedule though. I have 2 appts that day already, so we may need to try another time if I want to go this route.

Regardless though, we should definitely hook up and I really appreciate the offer. PM with your info and let's talk further.

pm sent .