TV oulet/surge/what do you do??

[highfigh]

For his just his tv, why not? If you're not using whole house protection at the breaker box, what would you recommend, isn't a ups or power conditioner with voltage regulation acceptable?

Part of the problem with parts of the system in one place and other parts somewhere else is that resistance on the ground and neutral conductors causes ground loops. Having one group of equipment connected to other groups, each on their own surge protection causes problems with continuity and adds to the ground loop problems.

Also, it's a good idea to look into the terminology involved with these. UPS doesn't mean surge suppression, it means Un-interruptable Power Supply and doesn't necessarily do anything for surges. As TLS posted- if it doesn't have a battery, it's not going to keep a system on when the power goes out and this can be a problem for cable/sat receivers, IT routers, computers and media servers that need to be on all the time.

As far as voltage regulation, that's a tricky proposition. Power amps need current on demand and stiffly regulated power doesn't give them the headroom they need. Amps have regulation built in but they're best served by a separate outlet that's not regulated, but is still protected from surges. Many highly regulated conditioners have a large transformer at the front end and transformers limit current- not a good thing for dynamics. Many conditioners have a "crowbar" voltage, which basically means that if a specific voltage is present for a certain time, they interrupt the voltage to the equipment by effectively throwing a crowbar across the hot and neutral, which should pop an internal breaker. Some conditioners/protectors are sacrificial which is good for the equipment being protected but bad for keeping it running.

 

[seanYsean]

Well my local audio/video said there is nothing to protect against lightening surges and that is what I was worried about most. I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this, I learned a lot.

 

[jonnymorgan]

PS audio makes a unit that replaces the whole outlet. Only problem... It costs 200 bucks.

Another idea:
Can you access the wiring to this outlet? IF so, separate the power wire from the outlet itself and run it to a location close to the surge suppressor - terminate it into another outlet. This will make this circuit a dead circuit unless it is plugged into the power strip.

Then make a special cord with two male ends plugging into your surge suppressor. This will provide power to the TV straight from the suppressor. I did this in one of my theaters.

sorry if this was too complex to understand!

it's an electricians trick!

 

[seanYsean]

PS audio makes a unit that replaces the whole outlet. Only problem... It costs 200 bucks.

Another idea:
Can you access the wiring to this outlet? IF so, separate the power wire from the outlet itself and run it to a location close to the surge suppressor - terminate it into another outlet. This will make this circuit a dead circuit unless it is plugged into the power strip.

Then make a special cord with two male ends plugging into your surge suppressor. This will provide power to the TV straight from the suppressor. I did this in one of my theaters.

sorry if this was too complex to understand!

it's an electricians trick!

Yeah, I only have studs on the wall right now..no sheet rock

got a drawing or something?

 

[TLS Guy]

Part of the problem with parts of the system in one place and other parts somewhere else is that resistance on the ground and neutral conductors causes ground loops. Having one group of equipment connected to other groups, each on their own surge protection causes problems with continuity and adds to the ground loop problems.

Also, it's a good idea to look into the terminology involved with these. UPS doesn't mean surge suppression, it means Un-interruptable Power Supply and doesn't necessarily do anything for surges. As TLS posted- if it doesn't have a battery, it's not going to keep a system on when the power goes out and this can be a problem for cable/sat receivers, IT routers, computers and media servers that need to be on all the time.

As far as voltage regulation, that's a tricky proposition. Power amps need current on demand and stiffly regulated power doesn't give them the headroom they need. Amps have regulation built in but they're best served by a separate outlet that's not regulated, but is still protected from surges. Many highly regulated conditioners have a large transformer at the front end and transformers limit current- not a good thing for dynamics. Many conditioners have a "crowbar" voltage, which basically means that if a specific voltage is present for a certain time, they interrupt the voltage to the equipment by effectively throwing a crowbar across the hot and neutral, which should pop an internal breaker. Some conditioners/protectors are sacrificial which is good for the equipment being protected but bad for keeping it running.

You have summarized the issue well. This is a complex issue, and one seldom out in the budget up front. Then a lot of denial and self deception sets in.

 

[TLS Guy]

PS audio makes a unit that replaces the whole outlet. Only problem... It costs 200 bucks.

Another idea:
Can you access the wiring to this outlet? IF so, separate the power wire from the outlet itself and run it to a location close to the surge suppressor - terminate it into another outlet. This will make this circuit a dead circuit unless it is plugged into the power strip.

Then make a special cord with two male ends plugging into your surge suppressor. This will provide power to the TV straight from the suppressor. I did this in one of my theaters.

sorry if this was too complex to understand!

it's an electricians trick!

That's an outfit you have to give a wide berth to.

 

[Midwesthonky]

That's an outfit you have to give a wide berth to.

DITTO! Oh yeah...Extra Ditto!

My cousin is an electrician...I'll run this past him and see how long he laughs before he can talk again...

 

[westom]

Well my local audio/video said there is nothing to protect against lightening surges ...

And then he said how many times your entire town was without phone service for four days while they replaced their lightning damaged computer. Or did you not ask him that damming question?

Their computer connects to overhead wires all over town. Suffers about 100 surges with each storm. And must never suffer damage. Which do we believe? Others who posted outright lies about UPS protection, or who just *know* nothing can protect from direct lightning strikes? Or do you learn what has been well understood and routinely installed even 100 years ago.

Your telco install a 'whole house' protector on every incoming wire in every cable. Massive and effective protection from surges because it is within feet of earth ground AND up to 50 meters distant (separated) from electronics.

highfigh has simply posted the well proven reality. Also notice that a majority did not even know this simple and well proven science. But even more ridiculous - how does that UPS stop what three miles of sky could not?

One 'whole house' protector is sized to make direct lightning strikes irrelevant. And then we provide what you must always have to have an honest answer - the numbers. A minimally sized 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. A direct lightning strike is 20,000 amps. Minimally sufficient protector must earth even direct lightning strikes and remain functional. Any protector damaged by surges is probably recommended by myths, junk science, or has a Monster Cable name on it.

No protector is protection. Yes, that contradicts what a majority believe. Repeated because that is also reality. No protector is protection. The effective 'whole house' protector works because it connects a surge TOO protection. How good is your surge protector? What so many electricians never learned. How good is your earth ground?

Essential to protection is single point earth ground – the only ‘protection system’ component that must always exist. Every incoming wire inside every cable must connect short to ground - just like every telco everywhere in the world does. How long is that connection from a 'whole house' protector in the breaker box? If an earth ground wire goes up over the foundation and down to an earthing electrode - then compromised protection. Wire must go through a foundation and down to the electrode. Must be shorter. No sharp wire bends. Three problems in that ‘over the foundation’ example. No splices. Must be separated from other non-ground wires. Not inside metallic conduit. Must meet all other surge protector grounds (ie protector installed for free by the telco where their wires meet yours) at the earthing electrode.

Upgrade the earthing system. In every case, the protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Not just connected ‘less than 10 feet’. Also single point ground. More conductive (ie more ground rods). Surge protection (earth ground) is best installed when footings were first poured. Information that an overwhelming majority never learned when informed only by retail salesmen. Science that was understood even 100 years ago.

Numbers and other installation requirements necessary so that even a direct lightning strike (a strike to utility wires down the street is a direct lightning strike to your appliances) causes no damage. So what did your local audio/video salesmen say? Amazing is how 100 years of knowledge is so unknown to so many. Amazing how many are trained by retail myths and popular hearsay. You have an opporuntity to ignore myths, do it right, and even spend tens or 100 times less money.

 

[TLS Guy]

And then he said how many times your entire town was without phone service for four days while they replaced their lightning damaged computer. Or did you not ask him that damming question?

Their computer connects to overhead wires all over town. Suffers about 100 surges with each storm. And must never suffer damage. Which do we believe? Others who posted outright lies about UPS protection, or who just *know* nothing can protect from direct lightning strikes? Or do you learn what has been well understood and routinely installed even 100 years ago.

Your telco install a 'whole house' protector on every incoming wire in every cable. Massive and effective protection from surges because it is within feet of earth ground AND up to 50 meters distant (separated) from electronics.

highfigh has simply posted the well proven reality. Also notice that a majority did not even know this simple and well proven science. But even more ridiculous - how does that UPS stop what three miles of sky could not?

One 'whole house' protector is sized to make direct lightning strikes irrelevant. And then we provide what you must always have to have an honest answer - the numbers. A minimally sized 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. A direct lightning strike is 20,000 amps. Minimally sufficient protector must earth even direct lightning strikes and remain functional. Any protector damaged by surges is probably recommended by myths, junk science, or has a Monster Cable name on it.

No protector is protection. Yes, that contradicts what a majority believe. Repeated because that is also reality. No protector is protection. The effective 'whole house' protector works because it connects a surge TOO protection. How good is your surge protector? What so many electricians never learned. How good is your earth ground?

Essential to protection is single point earth ground – the only ‘protection system’ component that must always exist. Every incoming wire inside every cable must connect short to ground - just like every telco everywhere in the world does. How long is that connection from a 'whole house' protector in the breaker box? If an earth ground wire goes up over the foundation and down to an earthing electrode - then compromised protection. Wire must go through a foundation and down to the electrode. Must be shorter. No sharp wire bends. Three problems in that ‘over the foundation’ example. No splices. Must be separated from other non-ground wires. Not inside metallic conduit. Must meet all other surge protector grounds (ie protector installed for free by the telco where their wires meet yours) at the earthing electrode.

Upgrade the earthing system. In every case, the protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Not just connected ‘less than 10 feet’. Also single point ground. More conductive (ie more ground rods). Surge protection (earth ground) is best installed when footings were first poured. Information that an overwhelming majority never learned when informed only by retail salesmen. Science that was understood even 100 years ago.

Numbers and other installation requirements necessary so that even a direct lightning strike (a strike to utility wires down the street is a direct lightning strike to your appliances) causes no damage. So what did your local audio/video salesmen say? Amazing is how 100 years of knowledge is so unknown to so many. Amazing how many are trained by retail myths and popular hearsay. You have an opporuntity to ignore myths, do it right, and even spend tens or 100 times less money.

I think you are bumming your own load and that's against the rules.

 

[highfigh]

That's an outfit you have to give a wide berth to.

That actually works well if the power management is good. The male wall-mounted plug is at the equipment end and the receptacle is at the TV and is exactly what the PanaMax or other branded two-part setups do, but by purchasing teh parts at the local big box store, it's a lot cheaper. The leg is dedicated to the TV and any other runs that are dedicated to the system and the whole system can be powered through the protector.

I did this with a system a few years ago and when I told the electricians what I wanted, they looked at me like I had three heads. Since the sources that have discs loaded into them and the TV are on the same wall in the den and the rest of the equipment is in a Middle Atlantic rack directly below, in the basement, this worked very well. The electrician said that when he sets up A/V equipment, he doesn't do any of this stuff and I told him that he can do it if he wants, but I won't. I asked what he does about lines in the video and humming- he said, "That can be a hard thing to get rid of". I told him that lights and motors are less sensitive to this but A/V equipment can't work well with ground loops. Again, he looked at me like I had three heads.

 

[highfigh]

Surge protection (earth ground) is best installed when footings were first poured.

You mean place the ground(s) under the concrete and pour around or over it? How would you deal with the corrosion from the concrete? You must have seen what concrete does to cables and structural members in roads and bridges- I can't see how putting ground conductors in concrete would be a long lasting solution.

 

[strube]

I don't know why nobody has mentioned the surge protector outlet. I came on here for the first time in several months to help you out. Lucky you . They work fine from what I have heard...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001FB64JE/ref=s9_simi_gw_p23_t7?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0X8N31NFDNRJH3MYWWS1&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

 

[westom]

You mean place the ground(s) under the concrete and pour around or over it?

Ufer grounds have long been a preferred solution to direct lightning strikes. Rebar is also the conductor. Better facilities use Cadwelding. Some quick sources:

Another who used a similar solution to adapt to a harsh geology:
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm

Ufer grounds (and other surge protection techniques) have long been used by, for example, ham radio operators:
http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Towertalk/1999-09/msg00141.html
ARRL's QST Magazine of August 2002 entitled "Lightning Protection for
the Amateur Radio Station" :
> If you are constructing a new tower you can use the tower base as a “ground rod.”
> Called a Ufer ground, it utilizes the rebar that reinforces the concrete base as an
> excellent ground connection.


From Qwest's "Grounding - Central Office and Remote Equipment Environment"
> 3.2.8 Supplementary Grounding Electrodes ...
> Other Ufer Grounds — Any concrete encased metallic electrode (including rebar)
> can serve as a supplemental ground.


Or Dr Ufer's IEEE paper “Investigation and Testing of Footing-Type Grounding Electrodes for Electrical Installations,” IEEE Trans on Power Apparatus and Systems, Oct 1964.

 

[westom]

I don't know why nobody has mentioned the surge protector outlet.

So where is the numeric spec that claims that protection?

 

[TLS Guy]

You mean place the ground(s) under the concrete and pour around or over it? How would you deal with the corrosion from the concrete? You must have seen what concrete does to cables and structural members in roads and bridges- I can't see how putting ground conductors in concrete would be a long lasting solution.

You never put concrete over grounds, otherwise they dry out and fail. They need the rain on them. I have three seven foot copper rods tied together as my main ground. Here is is against code to have grounds where they don't get moisture over them and that makes sense.

 

[seanYsean]

So where is the numeric spec that claims that protection?

Surge Voltage Rating "clamping voltage": 400V. Max Surge Current: 18kA. Joules: 720.


??

 

[TLS Guy]

Surge Voltage Rating "clamping voltage": 400V. Max Surge Current: 18kA. Joules: 720.


??

That won't do much good, and therefore has limited protection against only one type of problem.

 

[Rickster71]

Ufer grounds have long been a preferred solution to direct lightning strikes. Rebar is also the conductor. Better facilities use Cadwelding. Some quick sources:

Another who used a similar solution to adapt to a harsh geology:
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm

Ufer grounds (and other surge protection techniques) have long been used by, for example, ham radio operators:
http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Towertalk/1999-09/msg00141.html
ARRL's QST Magazine of August 2002 entitled "Lightning Protection for
the Amateur Radio Station" :
> If you are constructing a new tower you can use the tower base as a “ground rod.”
> Called a Ufer ground, it utilizes the rebar that reinforces the concrete base as an
> excellent ground connection.


From Qwest's "Grounding - Central Office and Remote Equipment Environment"
> 3.2.8 Supplementary Grounding Electrodes ...
> Other Ufer Grounds — Any concrete encased metallic electrode (including rebar)
> can serve as a supplemental ground.


Or Dr Ufer's IEEE paper “Investigation and Testing of Footing-Type Grounding Electrodes for Electrical Installations,” IEEE Trans on Power Apparatus and Systems, Oct 1964.

While it is a code requirement to have the grounding system tied to building steel and to the Re-bar in the foundation before the footing is poured. (I use Cadweld) This is only common practice in a commercial and industrial environment. Rarely do you even see re-bar in a residential foundation.

So if you're like 99% of us, your home will be required to have two ground rods no closer than six feet apart. The idea is to have a ground rod with less than 25 OHMS resistance. Tied with 6AWG copper. In the case of a concrete-encased electrode such as re-bar steel in a footing, 4 AWG copper

 

[seanYsean]

While it is a code requirement to have the grounding system tied to building steel and to the Re-bar in the foundation before the footing is poured. (I use Cadweld) This is only common practice in a commercial and industrial environment. Rarely do you even see re-bar in a residential foundation.

So if you're like 99.9% of us, your home will be required to have two ground rods no closer than six feet apart. The idea is to have a ground rod with less than 25 OHMS resistance. Tied with 6AWG copper. In the case of a concrete-encased electrode such as re-bar steel in a footing, 4 AWG copper

Really? I have rebar all through my foundation.

I just remembered I do have a copper wire and rod going into the ground where my line comes into the house so I hope that somewhat protects me.

 

[Rickster71]

Really? I have rebar all through my foundation.

I just remembered I do have a copper wire and rod going into the ground where my line comes into the house so I hope that somewhat protects me.

I was a little over zealous with my 99.9%
In general, steel reinforcement isn't required in residential foundations. While not all designs are exempt from re-bar, the chances are you will not need to use it. There are notable exceptions to this. And if you live on the West coast, all bets are off. You need re-bar because of seismic exposure.