Help a Beginner with: Record Player, Stereo, Amp, Pre-amp, and whatever else

G

Garrett.H

Audiophyte
Greetings,
I'm very new to all of this, and I'm looking for any help I can get. I've done a bit of research, but this is what I'm looking to do.

Set-up is for a record player (not tv):
1) First off, I'm looking to buy a record player. I've looked at the "rega p1," "Sumiko Pro-Ject Debut III,""Music Hall mmf 2.1," or should I look at buying a vintage turntable (if so, what vintage tt?)

2) Secondly, I've done a small bit of research on stereos, but for the most part i'm ignorant. I found the "B&W DM601 S2" looks good. Anyways, here are the dimensions for the room I'm putting them in; 14'-8" by 12'-9." (And the ceiling are fairly low).

3) I literally know nothing about pre-amps, but I found this one seems suitable, "Pro-Ject Phono Box II Phono Preamp."

4) And if there is anything else I may need (such as a receiver or cables) I literally know nothing of the sort, and any help would be much appreciated.

All in all, what I want to do is set up a decent record player that isn't limited by the speakers. I hope there is the appropriate information here so that someone can help me. Thanks again.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
The best table in the $500 range, by far, technically, is the Technics SL-1200MKII. The table(solid cast aluminum, highly damped), motor, etc. are the best anywhere near this price. It has no competition in this regard. The tone arm is good, but the tone arms on other units in this price range tend to be better, technically. You can later update the arm on the SL-1200MKII. There is a large market for this and an easy adapter plate to change to any arm you want is available. As for cartridges, I recommend Denon DL-110 if you want a reference cartridge with very low distortion, flat response and very low noise. You really won't get much audibly better if you spend 10x as much for a cartridge, if neutrality is the objective. For pre-amps, I have found the Music Hall MMF Phono Pack to be a great unit that measures transparently and has many loading options.

There are some superb vintage tables(top notch table and arm systems) in the $500 range, especially by Japanese makers in the 80's. But many have no parts available if you have a problem in the future. If you want recommendations on some models that qualify, I'll make them, but let me know if this is the case and the limited parts availability is an acceptable scenario for you.

-Chris
 
dkane360

dkane360

Audioholic Field Marshall
There are some superb vintage tables(top notch table and arm systems) in the $500 range, especially by Japanese makers in the 80's. But many have no parts available if you have a problem in the future. If you want recommendations on some models that qualify, I'll make them, but let me know if this is the case and the limited parts availability is an acceptable scenario for you.

-Chris
I'm gonna go ahead and ask about some vintage turntables :) I'm looking to buy one eventually, and I don't even no where to start lol
 
Cristofori

Cristofori

Audioholic
Greetings,
I'm very new to all of this, and I'm looking for any help I can get. I've done a bit of research, but this is what I'm looking to do.

Set-up is for a record player (not tv):
1) First off, I'm looking to buy a record player. I've looked at the "rega p1," "Sumiko Pro-Ject Debut III,""Music Hall mmf 2.1," or should I look at buying a vintage turntable (if so, what vintage tt?)

2) Secondly, I've done a small bit of research on stereos, but for the most part i'm ignorant. I found the "B&W DM601 S2" looks good. Anyways, here are the dimensions for the room I'm putting them in; 14'-8" by 12'-9." (And the ceiling are fairly low).

3) I literally know nothing about pre-amps, but I found this one seems suitable, "Pro-Ject Phono Box II Phono Preamp."

4) And if there is anything else I may need (such as a receiver or cables) I literally know nothing of the sort, and any help would be much appreciated.

All in all, what I want to do is set up a decent record player that isn't limited by the speakers. I hope there is the appropriate information here so that someone can help me. Thanks again.
I'd worry more about your TT limiting your speakers then vice versa.

The B&W DM601 S2's are excellent speakers, but the S3's are even better, and unlike the current generation of the 600 series, these were still made in England. Get those if you can find them.

I second the opinion of WmAx on the Technics TT, although many vinylphiles don't like direct drive TTs, mainly because of their experience with inferior TT using this system, of which there were many.

Going vintage is a great option if you can find the right stuff from the right seller. You'll often get better build quality than some of the stuff being made today at far greater prices. I got a near mint condition vintage Pioneer PL-10 TT at an estate sale for $15. I'll I had to do was clean it up a bit, buy a new belt and aluminum headshell for $25, and an excellent Audio-Technica AT-440mla cartridge/stylus on sale for $115, and I was in business. I'm still using this TT today, and would be reluctant to dump it for a Rega/Project whatever.

Just remember, you may not be able to return the Vintage TT you buy or get any warranty, and some parts for certain models may be hard to find. So do your homework and buy from a seller you can trust.

P.S. I'm not knocking the wonderful people here at Audioholics, but this is largely a multi-channel, home theater "future" driven website so you may find others who are more interested and/or helpful with this subject on forums like Audiogon or Audiokarma. There is also lot's of used and vintage gear for sale!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I'd worry more about your TT limiting your speakers then vice versa.

The B&W DM601 S2's are excellent speakers, but the S3's are even better, and unlike the current generation of the 600 series, these were still made in England. Get those if you can find them.

I second the opinion of WmAx on the Technics TT, although many vinylphiles don't like direct drive TTs, mainly because of their experience with inferior TT using this system, of which there were many.

Going vintage is a great option if you can find the right stuff from the right seller. You'll often get better build quality than some of the stuff being made today at far greater prices. I got a near mint condition vintage Pioneer PL-10 TT at an estate sale for $15. I'll I had to do was clean it up a bit, buy a new belt and aluminum headshell for $25, and an excellent Audio-Technica AT-440mla cartridge/stylus on sale for $115, and I was in business. I'm still using this TT today, and would be reluctant to dump it for a Rega/Project whatever.

Just remember, you may not be able to return the Vintage TT you buy or get any warranty, and some parts for certain models may be hard to find. So do your homework and buy from a seller you can trust.

P.S. I'm not knocking the wonderful people here at Audioholics, but this is largely a multi-channel, home theater "future" driven website so you may find others who are more interested and/or helpful with this subject on forums like Audiogon or Audiokarma. There is also lot's of used and vintage gear for sale!
We have a lot of vinyl enthusiasts on this site.

I would ask the OP what he is planning to play on his turntable and why.

If you want a good vintage turntable, a good bet is a Thorens TD 125 with an SME series two or three arm.

Here is a TD 150 Mk II with SME series three arm.



Arms by SME have always been head and shoulders above the rest, so go for an SME arm with a vintage turntable purchase from Thorens, SME or Garrard.

Garrard 301 and 401 turntables can be restored by Loricraft. Loricraft also make the 501. They have had the rights to the Garrard name.

Two Garrard 301s one with Decca ffss PU and arm, the other with an SME series 2 improved arm. The center Thorens TD 150 has an SME series 3 arm.

 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
TLS, your blown up pic of the TTs makes me want to peruse your CD collection. :D I see a lot of EMI, a good deal of London, some DG, and even some Erato. :D

Garret. H, I once started a thread about TTs on my friend's behalf, someone who received his doctorate in conducting some decades ago. I helped him choose Sierra1s for his bookshelves, an Outlaw integrated for his "receiver" (he needed a radio tuner), and the Pro-Ject Xpression III Turntable thanks to the doc's advice.

Of all the selections, he is happiest with the turntable purchase. He also did the cartridge upgrade, but I don't know how high he went, because he didn't remember when we did last discuss this. :p

The Technics that WmAx recommends is an extremely popular and well thought of machine for the money.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Arms by SME have always been head and shoulders above the rest, so go for an SME arm with a vintage turntable purchase from Thorens, SME or Garrard.
This is not true, at least for the last 10 - 15 years. Many arms of outstanding performance are available today, and vintage SME arms lack a lot of the performance of modern high quality arms from Clearaudio, Music Hall, VPI, etc. The modern high performance SME arms are of modern standards, but these are not exactly a good value, and you can equal performance for considerably lower prices. A top notch performance arm can be had today for $1000-$1300, if you shop carefully. SME's high performance arms start at a considerably higher price range (I suspect the weak dollar exchange is part of the problem causing the English made SME arms to be so expensive). The vintage era SME's don't perform nearly as well as many modern designs. They have not been optimized for internal resonance behaviours for the most part, having multiple significant resonances in the mid and high mid band ranges.

-Chris
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Of all the selections, he is happiest with the turntable purchase. He also did the cartridge upgrade, but I don't know how high he went, because he didn't remember when we did last discuss this. :p
Cartridges must be realized for what they are and can actually do. There is a lot of wasted money in this product sector, just like many other audio sectors. Paying several hundred or even thousands, in reality, won't get you significant performance over picking the right 140 dollar - 400 dollar cartridges. Take the Denon 110 as the prime example; it has the same super low surface noise, low distortion and flat/linear response as one would expect from a top notch cart costing thousands(The 110 is a rarity of value, still hand made and quality controlled in Japan and using a diamond of the quality one expects on carts costing many times more), or you can buy a cart costing hundreds or thousands that is anything but linear (colored to the hilt). Not to say many carts in the low price range are good, but picking the right one(s), you will get top notch performance, placing your SQ limits with the table and arm your purchase. The Audio Technica 440MLA is also a great value, but it has a substantially higher noise floor as compared to the Denon 110, which has a noise floor typical of premium level cartridges.

Phono pre-amps is another area where one can pay a lot for imagined performance, when you can simply spend 90-200 dollars for the right careful choice and get top notch transparent performance.

As for speakers. I recommend the Ascend Acoustics Sierra as mentioned earlier. It has a very high quality driver arrangement, a great crossover and a cabinet that has lower acoustic panel output compared to most (a major sound quality factor). It will work okay by themselves. When you want really high sound quality, you will get a pair of high quality subwoofers, place each one in a different side of the room, use an active crossover to properly direct signals to the Sierra and subs, and this will really clean up the mids (removing all audible distortions at moderate and higher SPLs providing you have a powerful amp), and cause a more realistic sound with full low frequency fill.

-Chris
 
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G

Garrett.H

Audiophyte
Thanks for the input everyone. I'm going to peruse over what's been posted, and I'll let you guys know if I have any more questions. In the mean time feel free to keep responding, as the posts so far have been most helpful!
 
G

Garrett.H

Audiophyte
Also, is this the Music Hall preamp you were talking about earlier?

ww.jr.com/music-hall/pe/MH_PA12

^There should be of course 3 "w". It said I needed a to have 5 posts or more for links
 
Cristofori

Cristofori

Audioholic
We have a lot of vinyl enthusiasts on this site.
OK, that's good to know. Things must have changed then somewhat. It wasn't like that in the past.

That's a beautiful multiple TT set up there! I'm guessing one of those can handle 78 rpm? Also, love the classical CD's, one can never have too many of them!

Please let me know when you croak so I can go to your estate sale! :D
 
Cristofori

Cristofori

Audioholic
The Audio Technica 440MLA is also a great value, but it has a substantially higher noise floor as compared to the Denon 110, which has a noise floor typical of premium level cartridges.
-Chris
One thing I like about this cartridge is it's excellent tracking ability. Unlike some other supposedly "good" cartridges I've owned, I can detect almost no inner groove distortion when playing most records, and it has shimmering highs. A great cartridge for the money!

I'd like to try that Denon 110 though. I'm also interested in getting the outstanding mono cartridge they make.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
One thing I like about this cartridge is it's excellent tracking ability. Unlike some other supposedly "good" cartridges I've owned, I can detect almost no inner groove distortion when playing most records, and it has shimmering highs. A great cartridge for the money!

I'd like to try that Denon 110 though. I'm also interested in getting the outstanding mono cartridge they make.
The Denon 110 has no tracking or inner groove issues whatsoever, assuming one can set up their TT correctly. The Denon 110 has a slight downard slope on the treble; the AT440 has a sight elevation; these conclusions based on independent measurement/analysis of recent samples.

-Chris
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Cartridges must be realized for what they are and can actually do. There is a lot of wasted money in this product sector, just like many other audio sectors. Paying several hundred or even thousands, in reality, won't get you significant performance over picking the right 140 dollar - 400 dollar cartridges.
Thanks for the input, Chris. He didn't pay an exorbitant amount, in fact the purchase was most likely in the latter price segment that you mentioned.

As for speakers. I recommend the Ascend Acoustics Sierra as mentioned earlier. It has a very high quality driver arrangement, a great crossover and a cabinet that has lower acoustic panel output compared to most (a major sound quality factor). It will work okay by themselves. When you want really high sound quality, you will get a pair of high quality subwoofers, place each one in a different side of the room, use an active crossover to properly direct signals to the Sierra and subs, and this will really clean up the mids (removing all audible distortions at moderate and higher SPLs providing you have a powerful amp), and cause a more realistic sound with full low frequency fill.
You ought to give me, not a lot, but just a wee bit more benefit of the doubt. :D I did tell him about dual subs, and active bass mgmt. However, I would have recommended that the subs be near each monitor, but perhaps I was misleading him. Well, to make a long story short, after going on about stuff like this, he started talking about his wife and how much he loves her. ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
OK, that's good to know. Things must have changed then somewhat. It wasn't like that in the past.

That's a beautiful multiple TT set up there! I'm guessing one of those can handle 78 rpm? Also, love the classical CD's, one can never have too many of them!

Please let me know when you croak so I can go to your estate sale! :D
Another one waiting for me to have a half day out with the undertaker!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
This is not true, at least for the last 10 - 15 years. Many arms of outstanding performance are available today, and vintage SME arms lack a lot of the performance of modern high quality arms from Clearaudio, Music Hall, VPI, etc. The modern high performance SME arms are of modern standards, but these are not exactly a good value, and you can equal performance for considerably lower prices. A top notch performance arm can be had today for $1000-$1300, if you shop carefully. SME's high performance arms start at a considerably higher price range (I suspect the weak dollar exchange is part of the problem causing the English made SME arms to be so expensive). The vintage era SME's don't perform nearly as well as many modern designs. They have not been optimized for internal resonance behaviours for the most part, having multiple significant resonances in the mid and high mid band ranges.

-Chris
Actually my favorite arm is the SME series three. The people at Flat Audio wish they still made it. SME use agate knife edge bearings. The arm tube is titanium, light and rigid. Everyone seems enamored with high mass cartridges now, which requires a different approach.

With a low mass very high compliance cartridge like the Shure V 15 xmr, (my all time favorite), the SME performs superbly. The addition of the silicone damper bath a paddle makes for very stable tracking even on severely warped records.

I think the damper bath on the SME series two arms is a must. They seem to benefit greatly.

The SME M2 entry level arm is basically an updated series 2 arm. Fit and finish a superb, and it does not break the bank. And they are not made in China which is a huge bonus!
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Actually my favorite arm is the SME series three. The people at Flat Audio wish they still made it. SME use agate knife edge bearings. The arm tube is titanium, light and rigid. Everyone seems enamored with high mass cartridges now, which requires a different approach.

With a low mass very high compliance cartridge like the Shure V 15 xmr, (my all time favorite), the SME performs superbly. The addition of the silicone damper bath a paddle makes for very stable tracking even on severely warped records.

I think the damper bath on the SME series two arms is a must. They seem to benefit greatly.

The SME M2 entry level arm is basically an updated series 2 arm. Fit and finish a superb, and it does not break the bank. And they are not made in China which is a huge bonus!
The arm I use currently is made and engineered in Germany. The Clearaudio Satisfy Aluminum 9". A super rigid unit with minimal connecting points. Bearings are polished saphire jewel with tungsten bearing points; the lowest static bearing assembly physically possible. Non physical coupled anti-skate system (no parts to resonate/vibrate/move), instead using rare earth magnets in a repel/pull configuration in relation to a central adjusted magnet/point. Headshell design avoids the common overhang design subject to resonance, instead using solid/stout parts extending directly from arm tube with a solid metal plate and angle adjust point on which the cartrdige mounts. While it may not cost as much as the high end SMEs, I doubt much more performance can be gained from a passive arm(as opposed to high tech active arms found on certain professional Japanese units in the 80s). This arm sells for about $1200 new, while modern SME arm designs start at almost twice this price.

-Chris
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Greetings,
I'm very new to all of this, and I'm looking for any help I can get. I've done a bit of research, but this is what I'm looking to do.

Set-up is for a record player (not tv):
1) First off, I'm looking to buy a record player. I've looked at the "rega p1," "Sumiko Pro-Ject Debut III,""Music Hall mmf 2.1," or should I look at buying a vintage turntable (if so, what vintage tt?)
... [snip] ...
3) I literally know nothing about pre-amps, but I found this one seems suitable, "Pro-Ject Phono Box II Phono Preamp."

4) And if there is anything else I may need (such as a receiver or cables) I literally know nothing of the sort, and any help would be much appreciated.

All in all, what I want to do is set up a decent record player that isn't limited by the speakers. I hope there is the appropriate information here so that someone can help me. Thanks again.
I think you are on a good track, with a sensible attitude towards a budget, something we all have to live with.

First of all, apologies for the length of this post. Hopefully it's worth the effort for you ... this is all based on my own experience and some is just my opinion. Don't take it as gospel; read everyone's advice in this thread.

I think the first thing I would suggest is that, with the level of gear you can afford, you're not gong to be going for that last degree of refinement. This is not necessarily a bad thing ... it means you don't have to be too fussy, when it all comes down to it. That opens up your options considerably.

I would consider the Rega P1, Debut III and mmf2.1 to be roughly equivalent tables. The differences between them will not be that great. Let your wallet be your guide.

However, at the price point for these tables, you can also consider a decent used unit.

As for direct drive tables, such as the SL 1200 MKII, they can also be great starter units. You can also consider some of the less popular Technics tables, like the 1300, 1400 and especially the all-manual 1500 or, even better, the somewhat rare 1100.

These are all double-isolated tables that are very good at resisting vibration and skipping if for some reason they are not on a sturdy shelf or if your floor bounces.

The original units are servo-controlled, the Mk II's are quartz servo controlled. There is a difference, but it's not huge and I wouldn't worry about it, especially if a bargain "mark I" pops in front of you (there really is no "mark I", but there are Mark II's; I'm just giving them that name for clarity sake).

Hifi nuts don't like the 1300 because it's an "automatic" table ... it moves the arm to the start groove with the push of a button, and picks it up at the end and returns it to the rest.

There is a mechanism that works via the TT motor to do this work, and they can have some mechanical noises as it's going on. A "semi-automatic" table, like the 1400 picks up the arm at the end, but won't place it on the lead in groove at the beginning. Both tables can be operated manually if you want.

If it's working normally, the automatic or semi-automatic mechanism is not contacting the motor when the record is actually playing music. If you really want to, you can remove the automatic mechanism entirely, making it essentially identical to an 1100, 1200 or 1500, sonically.

These tables can sometimes be found for half, or even much less, than the very popular SL 1200 Mk II. I've seen 1500's go for $100, and there is really no difference between a Mk II 1500 and a Mk II 1200.

Personally, I would favor belt drive tables over the DC motor tables, but to be honest, although there are sonic differences between the two systems, with the units you are looking at within your budget, they are more similar than different.

However if you can find any vintage of Rega 2 or 3, provided it has an RB 250 or RB 300 arm, I personally would not hesitate to take that over a Technics or even one of the new belt drives you are looking at.

The phono preamp you mentioned would be fine, or similar quality units to that. Avoid anything selling for less than about $100; they are usually not very good at all.

You could also consider scrounging garage sales or perhaps even your parent's basement for a preamp, receiver or integrated amp made before about 1990. They will probably have a phono input, and quality-wise, it might be pretty decent, or at least adequate.

You might be able to pick up such a unit for nothing, or a few dollars. In the modern world, any components that are "big" and "old" and "stereo" have little resale value unless it's well known to be something special.

You could then run the table to that unit, and another cable from the tape out (which will be line level) to an aux input of whatever you end up with for your system. Instant inexpensive phono preamp.

You never know; maybe the unit could work as your main amplifier as well.

When it comes to setting up an entry level system, the source (turntable, CD player) and speakers are areas that disproportionately affect the sound quality. If you can save on amplification you will get good bang-for-your-buck spending your budget on the other stuff.
 
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