Lexicon BD-30 Blu-ray Player (Oppo BDP-83 Clone) Review

[ender21]

LEXI-KHANNNNN!

Funniest thing I've seen a while. Classic!

 

[Snakeoil]

Well, I'm not sure what would satisfy you in the way of "proof". I said "certain aspects of audio performance". and I didn't make a claim that the Lexicon version enjoys a benefit. I said it might or it might not. I've never seen the Lexicon in person, and I probably never will, so I'm not going to make absolute statements about what it definitely does or does not do. I do feel I'm free to offer conjecture, so I did.

So you just assumed by price as a lot of people do that the lex would be better, why then would these "better" resaults no show up in the bench marks?

If you look at broadcast equipment, where the environment pretty much has to contain a huge amount of gear, and where small signals are amplified (eg microphones & mic cabling), where cable runs are bundled, run parallel, are connected in patch bays with adjacent connectors that are "too close" but that can't be helped much, and where crosstalk is a constant issue, they are shielded at multiple levels. Individual parts inside are shielded, stages inside the unit are shielded, the casework is built around them with more shielding. They do that because it works.

We are talking home audio, aspects that affect things far out of the 0-20kHz range are well known and measurable and you can not apply that to an audio device. The high end always does this with cables and equipment but since it is irrelevant I see it as pointless.

Any audio component that is mechanical in nature is also susceptible to vibration; everyone knows someone whose CD player can't handle the bumps. Mass helps here. (Okay, two examples).

Wrong, mechanlical vibration or resonance does not affect the 0-20kHz audio signal and being a CD player it is a digital signal anyways so it is either a 0 or a 1.

Did I see a difference? Yes, I repeated the first scene from Underworld Evolution and STILL find the Lexicon to be slightly better, especially with the purple hue to the marauder’s hair, on the Oppo it seems over done while the Lexicon makes it seem like actual sheen off dark hair.

How is this possible? I have the two units, and I have re-run this scene a dozen times, the Lex looks better, albeit slightly as I stated in the review. I posed the idea of a rebadged Oppo to Lexicon and received this statement in an Email;

"We worked with both Oppo and with their sub-assembly supplier as partners. We requested and obtained numerous changes from what was then the standard Oppo unit. In fact, 40% of the cost of the BD-30 is American content, and it is made in Elkhart IN. The units have gone through a very thorough engineering effort in Elkhart to confirm performance and reliability."

What a load of BS, why can't the site and the reviewer just admit that they were wrong? And unless he can provide some evidence about the video it is just more high end subjective opinions!

 

[Ares]

* By Andrew Robinson Managing Editor HTR

Jaakan,

I must say I've been staying away from this particular thread, mostly because I did not do the review nor have I ever listened or viewed any source material from either of the two players in question.

Moving on I must say you've hit the nail on the head for me and stated the single most important thing that I think has been missing from the discourse and that is the personal experience and the fact that everyone will have a difference of opinion based on their own experience (not to mention system).

Everyone,

I'm not going take a side on who's right and who's wrong for we can all agree to disagree and that's part of what makes certain aspects of this hobby fun. It's no different with cars, cameras, computers you name it. Choice is the spice of life and this really comes down to choice. Like Ken said if you choose the Oppo, great. If you choose the Lexicon that's good too so long as you're happy.

One thing I would like to touch upon (it was brought up earlier in a previous post) is the question regarding our review format.

Before I continue and in the spirit of full disclosure I've been with Home Theater Review since its inception almost two years ago, prior to that I was with AVRev.com or Audio Video Revolution where I cut my teeth reviewing universal remotes and eventually worked my way up to Managing Editor for both publications. I am proud of this publication and its staff of truly wonderful writers and consider them to be family in many regards so I'm letting my bias be known ahead of time. Are we perfect? No. No one is. We are an opinion based review site that we hope can provide insight and speak to the emotional side of the listening or viewing experience of a product(s) to help guide you in your collective journeys towards total system happiness and satisfaction. We are not the end all be all by any means, we are merely a guide. However should we not provide all of the info you require before making your purchase decision there is a wealth of knowledge out there to take you the rest of the way and we're cool with that.

Like many of you I'm sure, I grew up on a steady diet of Stereophile and the like- dreaming of one day being able to afford some of the truly awesome gear they covered in their pages. That being said, and please don't take this as a knock or an attack, but I never really paid much attention to the specs or graphs presented in those reviews (partially because I was young and didn't much understand them at the time) because at the end of the day you don't feel measurements, charts or graphs. You feel the music or you enjoy the movie. You listen with your heart. (Yes, technically I know its really your ears but I think we all get the point I'm trying to make.) It's an emotional response that is triggered by any number of factors all of which are very un-scientific and unique to the listener or viewer.

That being said, there are people that would rather look at charts and graphs to decide what makes a product good or bad because there is a theoretical "perfect" line out there and in some regards I suppose we're all chasing it and that's fine, it's just not what we do here. We don't crack open cases, or bust out measurement tools or anything like that because it's simply not our style.

I stand by Ken's review as well as behind this publication's credibility and reiterate once again that the review posted above was Ken's personal opinion of the Lexicon BD-30 player and for him he felt it was a good piece of kit.

Now the decision on whether or not you agree with Ken or wish to pay the BD-30's asking price is entirely up to you.

I thank you all for listening and for continuing to comment and engage in the conversation.

Sincerely,

Andrew Robinson
Managing Editor
Home Theater Review

I found this amusing. So measurements,charts and graphs are meaningless because you can feel it like music or movies and the best part you listen with your heart.WTF! I need numbers, sounds like this guy has been to one to many raves.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

So you just assumed by price as a lot of people do that the lex would be better, why then would these "better" resaults no show up in the bench marks?

Do not put words into my mouth. This is your assumption, not mine. I have never, here or anywhere else, stated that the Lexicon is better; I stated that it's possible in one specific aspect, which I described, but that I don't know for sure, and I offered my own opinion, based on my experience.

You did a cut-and-paste from that post, ignored the overall subject of that post, asked two questions in seven words, demanded "proof" in a forum of all places, and I answered honestly and courteously.

I'm new to the forum *, so I don't know the personalities here, which is why I gave you the benefit of the doubt and produced a partial explanation, that, if you were really interested in the answer, gave you enough to find out more for yourself, and come to a learned conclusion for yourself.

We are talking home audio, aspects that affect things far out of the 0-20kHz range are well known and measurable and you can not apply that to an audio device. The high end always does this with cables and equipment but since it is irrelevant I see it as pointless.

And these studios of which I spoke, they record what, then?

The products in your living room did not get there through a vacuum; and if you think the experiences of those who make studio gear or radio gear are irrelevant, that the FCC wastes it's time and effort trying to manage EMI, or that home audio is some magic place where nothing learned from another field can possibly apply, I'm fine with that.

But I will guarantee that none of the people who designed the gear currently in your home believe it, and it's a good thing for both of us, and everyone else here who has a more than passing interest in sound reproduction, that they don't.

* Wow. 25 posts. Are they all just quotes and contradiction, or do you contribute? Point me to an example and I'll go back and read it; I love to learn new things.

 

[ender21]

"I stand by Ken's review as well as behind this publication's credibility and reiterate once again that the review posted above was Ken's personal opinion of the Lexicon BD-30 player and for him he felt it was a good piece of kit."

And that's where HTR distances itself from and throws the reviewer under the bus. Reminds me of the proverbial "vote of confidence" that GMs give to coaches.

 

[gene]

In the eighties, because of the dictates of modern assembly lines and the necessity to buy huge quantities of resistors, capacitors, etc. from parts suppliers, the magic minimum number for Yamaha in Japan was 5000 pieces of any given CD player model. With the advent of CD players in the early eighties Yamaha was one of the first companies to establish an satellite facility to produce OEM players branded for others. If memory serves that model was the CD-X1. By the time I visited Yamaha’s satellite facility in the mid-eighties they were rebadging CD-X3s for no less than six other manufacturers. (At the time Yamaha claimed they were supplying as many as eighteen re-badgees!)

Contrast the economies of scale realized by a 5000 pieces minimum of a given model to that of a typical ‘80s/’90s boutique amplifier manufacturer like Steve McCormack. I once heard Steve speaking at a dealer seminar wherein he bemoaned having to purchase parts for his minimum cost-effective production run - 1000 amplifiers. And that price differential, between buying 1000 parts packages (bills of material, BOMs) at a time versus 5000 parts packages was typically huge, especially for a US manufacturer who many times would be buying through a US-based (two-step) distributor.

This same cost bogey holds for California-based Oppo when they put out, for example, their BDP-83 Special Edition. The opt-times lower tolerance and/or “better sounding” parts used in the SE’s audio section are purchased in far lower quantities and far higher prices than those parts used in the standard edition BDP-83. This up-charge becomes exacerbated when you’re talking, for instance, about a special DAC whose superior sonic performance is recognized as a known performance enhancement. So is it any surprise to anyone that the BDP-83 SE costs $899.99 versus the standard BDP-83’s $499.99?

Gene’s measurement of the incorrect THX-specified 80Hz curve on the Lexicon/BDP-83 player is no surprise to this author. Nor was it a surprise when I saw Gene’s measured results when he first published the Oppo BDP-83 review. Gene is an electronics engineer. He is also a very honest guy. He publishes them like he measures them. Gene’s published curves on the BDP-83’s higher-than-80HZ roll-off curves reminded me of the same problems I encountered when designing Alesis Studio Electronics M1-Active and the Infinity Beta CSW-10 subwoofer.

- First off, when working with both of the aforementioned designs the impedance characteristics of both drivers in these two systems were known quantities. So we were working with an internal-to-the-speaker-amplified-system fixed and known impedence at 80Hz.

- Second, roll-off curves at 80Hz require very precise parts interactions among the parts used to implement the roll-off. At both Alesis and Infinity we found that we had to switch from ±20 % parts tolerance to ±5% parts tolerance. And that was with a speaker whose impedance and phase characteristics at 80Hz were known!

- Third, Oppo engineers know that when dealing with Asian-sourced parts that Asian suppliers always, always supply (for instance) a resistor or capacitor at the bottom tolerance limit of the part’s specified value. i.e. A ±20%, 100 microfarad capacitor might measure 81 microfarads whereas a ±5%, 100 microfarad cap might measure 95.5 microfarads.

- Fourth, during any given Asian production run Oppo’s OEM supplier may swap out that so-called and ± toleranced 100 microfarad cap from one manufacturer for a 100 microfarad cap from another manufacturer. In my experience, sometimes these suppliers will alert the American-based brand they are supplying this product to and other times they won’t.

Regarding the Lexicon clone of Oppo’s BDP-83 – There is no way Lexicon, whose engineering personnel ranks in the States have been decimated over the last few years could hope to field a $3500 Blu-Ray disc player and design it themselves. So the 5000 pieces quantity is out, as is the used-to-be-the-boutique-norm of 1000 pieces.

The box-within-a-box construction of the Lexicon/BDP-83 is a first in my experience. My guess is that Lexicon’s maximum projected life-cycle quantity for their BD-30 is 100 pieces...which they probably had to purchase up-front from Oppo. That means one guy at Lexicon probably drew the silkscreened artwork for the front and rear panels and the carton artwork. Another guy probably ordered the faceplates. And a third guy cuts the air holes out in Lexicon’s false bottom/front aluminum plate mount piece of sheet metal. The remaining cost differential (between the Oppo and the Lexicon) is the cost-of-sales within Lexicon’s distribution/pricing model.

Excellent perspective Pat. Glad to see you're still lurking about.

 

[randyb]

The Audio Critic is an objectivist site. http://www.theaudiocritic.com/plog/

It is but he is in his 80's and really doesn't have any writers or reviewers anymore other than himself. Still enjoy his occasional review though.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You still work here?


jk

I guess he didn't get the email

 

[bogrod]

But no matter what anyone believes in the end they are a company trying to make a profit. They are not my friend trying to give me a great deal.

From a financial standpoint this makes sense. The get a low cost unit that requires little to no engineering that they can get THX certified and sell for a profit. From a PR standpoint this was a nightmare and they are sure to lose customers.

My point was not to criticise the fact that they're a for-profit business, or that they're under any obligation to give anyone a "deal", or that they should be criticised for having "boutique" prices.

It's that they didn't modify the oppo player at all. That is what the controversy is all about. They didn't even take the parts out of the Oppo shell.

Again, if they had done any internal modification (aside from throwing their logo into the firmware for the onscreen display) to the unit, there would not be the uproar.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The Audio Critic is an objectivist site. http://www.theaudiocritic.com/plog/

Yes, but unfortunately their greatness is behind them and Peter can only do so much now.

 

[Todd Sauve]

1 - Amazing. I am proud of audioholics and their integrity.

2 - Are there any other websites other then audioholics worth reading? I don't want to switch, I want to read other websites as audioholics isn't reviewing enough products fast enough! Yes, they can't review everything, and so far I have found none - absolutely zero - as objective as audioholics. Any suggestions?

Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity does good work on their AVR reviews.

I'd post the link but I'm not allowed ... yet???

 

[Todd Sauve]

Here is the link they so vigorously denied me

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/

 

[gene]

Guys lets keep the thread on topic please. No need for personal attacks. Thanks.

 

[gene]

BTW as far as I know the new McIntosh BD player will be an upscale version of the Marantz player which is an upscale version of the Denon player. Once I can take a look inside, I can post for sure. I do know they did make changes between the 3 models. Whether those changes are measurably and audiibly better is another story however

 

[BigSkreen]

McIntosh doesn't really have my "support", but I do appreciate their aesthetic feel. They are pieces of art as far as I am concerned.

I thing this brings up an interesting point. If Lexicon had made these into a McIntosh type work of art would there be less outrage? I think people would have been happier if there were a little more work put into this.

 

[Ares]

Since its inception in 1971, Lexicon has been a company dedicated to breaking sound barriers. Being at the leading edge of both the professional and consumer audio markets has led to an insight into the art of creating exquisite sound that is unmatched by any other brand.

From the launch of the first commercially available digital audio effects processor to the new Automatic Room Equalization system, a focus on research and development has kept Lexicon at the apex of audio innovation.

I took this from their website what I find interesting is their claim of focusing on R&D well with the BP30 this was clearly not done, I have no issue with a company doing a rebadge,what I don't like is they rebadge and do nothing in the way of improving it expect for making a new case for it to the tune of 3k. So no improvements of any kind has been done except for the case it's not worth 3.5K maybe $700-$750.

 

[Snakeoil]

BTW as far as I know the new McIntosh BD player will be an upscale version of the Marantz player which is an upscale version of the Denon player. Once I can take a look inside, I can post for sure. I do know they did make changes between the 3 models. Whether those changes are measurably and audiibly better is another story however

True and that is fine but I have a problem when mcintosh and their supporters say that the MVP881 has no connection to the denon or marantz players. Atleast this time they are using the top of the line so you will get a good product unlike their past players that did not use the denon top of the line and yet cost quite a bit more.

 

[bandphan]

True and that is fine but I have a problem when mcintosh and their supporters say that the MVP881 has no connection to the denon or marantz players. Atleast this time they are using the top of the line so you will get a good product unlike their past players that did not use the denon top of the line and yet cost quite a bit more.

your term was re-badged, meaning no changes made.

 

[Chu Gai]

I took this from their website what I find interesting is their claim of focusing on R&D well with the BP30 this was clearly not done, I have no issue with a company doing a rebadge,what I don't like is they rebadge and do nothing in the way of improving it expect for making a new case for it to the tune of 3k. So no improvements of any kind has been done except for the case it's not worth 3.5K maybe $700-$750.

What if part of their focus on R&D is to focus on what others are doing well and leverage it?

 

[audiophilesavan]

I am surprised that no one has asked Dr. Ken Taraszka at Home Theater Review, how much, if anything, he paid for the Lexicon BD-30 about which he wrote such a positive review and which he decided to keep for his system. I would wager he was given "accommodation" pricing, which means substantially less than dealer cost. For Mr. Del Coliano and his staff, it is not just about the money they earn on advertising; it is also about the great pricing they get on whatever components they review and recommend. I would be interested in hearing his defense of the practice.