DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[gonk]

At this point I'd be shocked if the friend was real. MLS never gave an actual name(just initials) and he sold ref 3's to another person through the same thread.

Certainly seems that way. I just can't figure out why the guy even tried to sell you used speakers under any circumstances if he didn't have them. Of course, there are a lot of things about Mark and AV123's business decisions in recent years that I can't figure out...

How do you like this for an update when somebody asked about what's happening with their new sub (provided the driver passes testing and all that good stuff)?

Nice update. Certainly a big confidence booster for me. Clearly they are mere days away from... something.

 

[cmryan821]

Well, if the friend was real, and all those things that belonged to the friend were real, then the person who bought the Ref 3's must've had them shipped from California, right? So must everyone else too. Any way for you to contact them to see if they remember where the goods came from?

Well I say he bought them but as of Dec '08 he had not received anything either. That was the last time I signed in at those forums. So I have no idea if he ever received anything. I doubt it though.

I'll try bumping that thread and see if anyone that bought something from it ever received anything. That's assuming any of them still go there. I might also get banned.

 

[fanuminski]

I'll try bumping that thread and see if anyone that bought something from it ever received anything. That's assuming any of them still go there. I might also get banned.

Only lasted 21 minutes or so - lol

I can't believe that there aren't at least several people who
have filed small-court claims (at the very least) against
MLS.

-M

 

[Chu Gai]

Well I say he bought them but as of Dec '08 he had not received anything either. That was the last time I signed in at those forums. So I have no idea if he ever received anything. I doubt it though.

I'll try bumping that thread and see if anyone that bought something from it ever received anything. That's assuming any of them still go there. I might also get banned.

Don't tell me you didn't save the post

 

[Chu Gai]

I just tried it and it told me that it was an Invalid Thread Specified. Ohhhhh...naughty naughty Markie destroying evidence like that

 

[cmryan821]

Only lasted 21 minutes or so - lol

I can't believe that there aren't at least several people who
have filed small-court claims (at the very least) against
MLS.

-M

Yep. I got an email from Kyle Steidle stating that "any questions about the ref 3 thread please direct your questions to MLS directly at mls@av123.com." And it seems the thread was deleted completely. Glad I got several screenshots.

 

[Chu Gai]

Good old Field Marshal Steidle. Ever vigilant and standing shoulder to shoulder with the Humbly, Bumbly one protecting the one man that has brought unparalleled joy to thousands! That must be one good paycheck to keep a person working in the face of such an onslaught.

 

[gonk]

Yep. I got an email from Kyle Steidle stating that "any questions about the ref 3 thread please direct your questions to MLS directly at mls@av123.com." And it seems the thread was deleted completely. Glad I got several screenshots.

Good to see their forum moderation policies are still well-defined and consistently enforced. Both of my old threads have also been deleted - although I have PDF copies of them still. I'm actually a bit impressed with Kyle's restraint - no criticism of you for posting in the first place.

 

[Chu Gai]

Yes, it was done quite silently

and without any fanfare like when they pull you from your room Now, the question is, can he even post there anymore? Maybe just pop into the Bad Boy thread and say something like, "Wow, those drivers look like the bomb."

 

[MinusTheBear]

and without any fanfare like when they pull you from your room Now, the question is, can he even post there anymore? Maybe just pop into the Bad Boy thread and say something like, "Wow, those drivers look like the bomb."

Or even better you can post in many of the defective product threads that talk about cracked/damaged veener, loose screws, disconnected wires, driver flapping etc and say something like "this thread is worthless without pics" .

 

[T2T]

How do you like this for an update when somebody asked about what's happening with their new sub (provided the driver passes testing and all that good stuff)?

Maybe, it's almost time for his ...

 

[Chu Gai]

Perhaps these personalized Russian 100 Ruble notes will be considered as payment in kind.

​

 

[Chu Gai]

Not too long ago, I had a series of PM's with another person. One of the questions they posed was something along the lines of 'What do I think of the people who won products and now are some of Shifty's most vocal critics?' 'Ought they not sell whatever it is they own and give the proceeds to the raffle recipients?'

I didn't answer that hypothetical to the person and wasn't sure if it was just a rhetorical question or a statement couched as a question that called into question the integrity of those who've personally benefited and now have expressed public umbrage after all the stories.

Now, I don't see how a person has any more integrity by keeping silent if they won something. I don't think that it's fair to arbitrarily connect the two such that one ought to not have a position or express one so long as they hold on to some GTG give-aways. The misdeeds that have been committed are broad in scope ranging from the raffles, not paying employees, not repaying business partners, fraudulent sales of products, not returning monies to RSL beta testers, warranty issues, store credit, and the like. Each one has their own level of outrage. Is borrowing 6 figures from a close friend and business partner and not repaying it worse than running a raffle scam? Is borrowing money from your family and not repaying it worse than sending several refund checks to a person who wants their money back and each one bounced? I kind of look at them as all being despicable acts which if they ever face a court of law will have their own individual weights assigned to them.

So, my answer would be that holding on to whatever you might have won, provided you still even have it, does not mean you should stay silent if your sense of outrage somehow compels you to express it. It doesn't make you less or more credible. Granted, it would be the most remarkable eff-you to sell what you've got and take the proceeds and disburse it in some way. I would heartily applaud it. But you don't have to because in the end, it's not anyones responsibility to make good on what's owed other than one man.

If you stick up for the guy like some who've posted here before and believe that with time he'll make good, all I can say is you're one hell of a friend and a better one than he deserves. But in life, having a few good friends, maybe even one good one is spectacular enough. To me, MLS made people think he was their friend. That they were special. That's the mark of a good salesman to make you feel you're special in some way and there's nothing wrong with that. It's also the mark of a con-man and to me, the crickets chirping at 123 with almost 10,000 registered forum members is evidence that around 99% or so have wised up. In the end, he didn't look at people as friends, just as marks.

 

[droht]

I've had sort of the opposite thoughts about a few of the raffle winners. Some of them remain ardent supporters of mls, seemingly no matter what. Makes me wonder if the outcomes of the drawings may have been as questionable as the charitable giving was.

 

[MinusTheBear]

The people that won prizes from these raffles should keep them, that shouldn't be put into question. The logic in the argument that individuals should sell their winnings to give to the charities is very poor imo if they are outspoken about this issue. It is deflective of nature and counter-productive to the causation and resolution to the actual problem. Don't get me wrong if one felt so inclined to help out any charity by selling something they won or own that would be mighty impressive but it shouldn't be put into question imo because it is ultimately not their responsibility. Remember money was initially donated by these individuals under the pretense to support a great cause. Their winnings are deserving none the less.

 

[Jed M]

If that person took exception to me winning something and now am a vocal victim I will remind him that in my case it was different. In my case I took it even harder on the chin than some lucky guy who put in $20 and won a trunk full of speakers. I won one of the few AUCTIONS. In fact, I assumed the position so fully that I gave that jerk more money than he was owed or deserved. I won a set of 750's for $900 and I felt that winning a charity auction for less than retail, let alone dirt cheap, was against the nature of such auctions. Since I didn't want to up my ante I changed my order to a $400 ULW-10 that sat broken and unused for almost 2 years waiting for a new amp. So essentially, since he never sent the money, I paid him over double for a broken, POS sub and now some jerk off thinks I should sell it for charity? To make matters worse, I asked Mark to put my $900 donation in the name of my 14 year old dog who had just passed away two days prior to that auction. Laugh if you must, but it just fuels my fire even further. Dragging my poor beloved dog into this bs...

 

[Chu Gai]

I've had sort of the opposite thoughts about a few of the raffle winners. Some of them remain ardent supporters of mls, seemingly no matter what. Makes me wonder if the outcomes of the drawings may have been as questionable as the charitable giving was.

Well, they're entitled to that opinion. As near as I can tell from speaking to those close to the situation as to how the winners were picked, MLS was not personally involved and every effort was made to ensure randomness in choosing the winning number. As to whether everyone who gave was entered, that's probably a fair enough question. RandyB, who has posted here, noted that his name did not appear in those ongoing lists until after he made mention of it in public forum. But given that you had to shovel money into Shifty's PayPal account, and not everyone who entered posted, the accuracy of the list may be rightfully questioned, but everything I've been able to determine says the drawings were otherwise fair.

BTW, has anyone noticed that abomination of an online rag, AffordableAudio, has named VA321's X-Omni as one of the best buys of 2009? Too bad you can't buy it and if they can scrounge one up, it's probably busted somehow.

 

[gonk]

One of the questions they posed was something along the lines of 'What do I think of the people who won products and now are some of Shifty's most vocal critics?' 'Ought they not sell whatever it is they own and give the proceeds to the raffle recipients?'

I have a hard time wrapping my head around that question. I would argue that raffle winners have just as much right to be critical as anyone else - particularly since they, like the raffle participants who didn't win, put money in Mark's hands with the understanding that he would pass it along. The status of that raffle prize is irrelevant in my mind. It could have been sold off and the proceeds given to charity, sold off and the proceeds spent on DVD's and fancy power cords, or kept and used on a daily basis. Trying to expect them to discard their prize in order to speak negatively is unfair to them and frankly kind of an odd notion. It's almost as if they are being somehow made complicit in Mark's crimes simply be possessing a raffle prize, and therefore unable to question his actions as long as the prize is theirs.

What about the other side of the coin? Raffle winners who defend Mark may be loyal friends, and thus no different from other loyal friends who (raffle winners, raffle losers, or raffle non-participants) remain willing to support Mark. They may also be blinded by the fact that they got a prize of some sort. Either way, they are also not complicit in Mark's theft. Trying to project some shame onto them is equally unreasonable as trying to project shame or wrongdoing onto a winner who is critical of Mark or a winner who is aware of the situation but chooses to be silent on the matter.

I've run into one raffle winner who was harshly critical of people for questioning Mark about the raffles - that didn't sit well with me, since the raffle he won was supposed to benefit Derek and the money he paid into it (one of the last raffles run) remains some of the most clearly undelivered funds in the whole debacle. Maybe he would have accepted some reasonable debate on the subject, though. We can't know for sure since several very polite posts contradicting him were deleted and may not have ever come to his attention. (I have my doubts in this particular case, frankly, but it's a possibility that can't be ruled out...)

 

[randyb]

Just to clarify. I was not a regular poster over there but did participate in one raffle. I really didn't care that much about winning but noticed that when the raffle closed and the participants were listed, I wasn't on the list. I posted that and received a PM from Mark saying that really bothered him and he would check into it. He then wrote me and said yes, I was included. Who really knows, but I did start to be a little suspicious. After I kept seeing so many raffles, I wrote Curtis and said I just thought it was a little strange to see so many and I always thought Mark was a little too much of a personal figure with lots of ego on display rather than just running a business. It bothered me that he was all "hugs and kisses" and I thought it was unprofessional. I had no proof but my instincts said something was wrong.

That being said, my instincts have not served me as well in other aspects of spending my money (for certain speakers that are being built and are "coming soon" and will be better than any commericial speakers). Chu knows where I am coming from

 

[Chu Gai]

Jed, did MLS ever do right by you getting that sub repaired? And you shouldn't have felt guilty paying less than list price. Take the list price and divide by 5 to get an approximate price of what it cost to build them. Sure there are operating expenses and all but MLS was never really passing the savings on to the customer by cutting out the middleman. In fact, in some dealings, he was the middleman like buying stuff himself, selling it to 123 at a profit, then making another profit once it was sold. The guy burned through money faster than a NYC hooker burned through tricks duing a NYC blackout.

And Randy...yeah, I know.