Best of both worlds

[fullhoused]

I am currently using a Pioneer vsx 919ah as my Home theatre, driving an assortment of speakers Pioneer fronts and Kenwood sides, Castle Audio rears, with a dual 100w sub setup (axiom and Psb) I am increadilbly happy with the sound quality and performance with Blu Ray viewing on a 42 plasma.
The other side of the coin, my Rega turntable is connected to the vsx 919ah via a Cambridge audio phono pre amp (due to the recievers lack of phono input) The sound quality is great but I would like to get an amp more suited for pure vinyl enjoyment (tube amp). And yes vinyl does sound better than CD's (IMHO)
I would like to be able to switch seemlessly between the two settups using the same speaker configuration. Keeping the Pioneer souly for AV usage, (7.1 DTS HD sounds awesome) And good old tube amp grunt and warmth for my turntable.
Is there such a creature that will allow me to do this?
Be interested in hearing anyones thoughts or setups to acheive this.
Thanks
Shawn

 

[Adam]

Welcome to the forum, Shawn!

It sounds to me like you want to connect your front main speakers to both your Pioneer (for AV use) and a tube amp (for music). If so, you could get a speaker switch box. This has been discussed here before, and I apologize that I can't recall specific recommendations. Most of the switch boxes that I've seen are used to connect multiple pairs of speakers to a single amp, but what you want is to connect multiple amps to a single pair of speakers. Those switchers certainly exist, and hopefully someone here knows of a good one to get.

 

[Josuah]

Make sure any switch box you get is a break-before-make connection, otherwise you'll temporarily end up connecting your two amps to each other and that's a recipe for disaster. Possibly smoking disaster.

 

[JerryLove]

I think your most obvious option is, indeed, a speaker switchbox.

Were I in your boat, I might consider instead getting a tube pre-amp and running it as a source to the solid-state receiver. Since normal receivers are flat: you should get to retain your tube coloration.

 

[mike c]

 

[fullhoused]

Thanks for the information guys. I am not very much of a techie, the last thing I want to do is blow my speakers or Receiver.
I will look into the speaker switchers. So how would I run a Tube pre-amp into my Pioneer receiver? What input would I put that through. And any recomendations on Tube Pre-amps?

Thanks again
Shawn

 

[highfigh]

Make sure any switch box you get is a break-before-make connection, otherwise you'll temporarily end up connecting your two amps to each other and that's a recipe for disaster. Possibly smoking disaster.

The last thing a tube amp should see is a sudden loss of its load. This can take out the output transformer. In a system like this, it's best to be patient and leave the tube amp off until needed and use banana plugs or some other quick disconnect. A solid state amp doesn't care if it has a load but the field that builds up in a transformer will collapse when the load disappears, just like an ignition coil in a car. The point where the voltage can arc to is usually in the output transformer's windings and once that happens, it can take out other components.

 

[tcarcio]

I wouldn't restrict yourself to a tube amp. I really don't think it matters what kind of amp is used as far as sound quality is concerned. Build quality is a different story but like I said don't limit yourself....Check this out...http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx?atext=Amplifier+Sound+Quality

 

[fullhoused]

Oh boy Tcarcio you may have opened up a huge can of worms with that article, interesting read though.
I'm sure some die hard Tube Amp fans out there are going to have something different to say.
I can comment on the sound quality difference between Tube amps and digital amps with respect to musical instruments. I play guitar and I will say with 100% confidence tube amps sound infinately better. Eveyone knows changing the tube manufacturers you run in them will provide very different tone to your your music. I fail to see how this would differ in home audio game. Like I said Im not much of a techie and could be way off base trying to compare Guitar tube amp properties to Home audio tube amps. ( if I am, I would appreciate enlightenment)
Thanks for the reply, definate food for thought.
Shawn.

 

[tcarcio]

Oh boy Tcarcio you may have opened up a huge can of worms with that article, interesting read though.
I'm sure some die hard Tube Amp fans out there are going to have something different to say.
I can comment on the sound quality difference between Tube amps and digital amps with respect to musical instruments. I play guitar and I will say with 100% confidence tube amps sound infinately better. Eveyone knows changing the tube manufacturers you run in them will provide very different tone to your your music. I fail to see how this would differ in home audio game. Like I said Im not much of a techie and could be way off base trying to compare Guitar tube amp properties to Home audio tube amps. ( if I am, I would appreciate enlightenment)
Thanks for the reply, definate food for thought.
Shawn.

Well some people think they here the difference in speaker wire also. I don't know about instruments but Double blind tests don't lie. But you know if some people think they hear the difference and it is for the better then that is fine, I just am not one of them.

 

[JerryLove]

Thanks for the information guys. I am not very much of a techie, the last thing I want to do is blow my speakers or Receiver.
I will look into the speaker switchers. So how would I run a Tube pre-amp into my Pioneer receiver? What input would I put that through. And any recomendations on Tube Pre-amps?

I'm not a tube guy, and so could not make a useful recommendation as to which tube amps you might like. Just make sure it's either a pre-amp, or has a pre-out stage (there are a number of hybrid tube amps out there with tube-pre-amp stages and solid state-amp stages as well. With one of those, you shouldn't be paying too much for the solid state portion, so if it has a pre-out you can use that).

You should be able to use any in you like (except phono in ironically) as they are all treated the same.

The one other recommendation there is to keep a careful eye on volume. Remember that the aplifier on the Pioneer will aplifiy that possably preampted output from the tube. If you turn them both up (perhaps you turned up the pioneer listening to something else, then switched to the tube) that could be bad.

There are solutions to that too, but like everything there are trade-offs.

 

[Josuah]

The last thing a tube amp should see is a sudden loss of its load. This can take out the output transformer. In a system like this, it's best to be patient and leave the tube amp off until needed and use banana plugs or some other quick disconnect.

Excellent point. I missed the tube amp part.

Were I in your boat, I might consider instead getting a tube pre-amp and running it as a source to the solid-state receiver. Since normal receivers are flat: you should get to retain your tube coloration.

It's possible the analog inputs on the receiver will go through a digital volume control or a solid-state gain stage, in which case your receiver can still color the sound coming from the tube pre-amp.

Oh boy Tcarcio you may have opened up a huge can of worms with that article, interesting read though.
I'm sure some die hard Tube Amp fans out there are going to have something different to say.

I read a research paper that performed a double-blind test between musicians and non-musicians with respect to distortion. The paper concluded that musicians were able to detect smaller levels of distortion than non-musicians. Sorry but I can't remember the name of the paper right now.

One of my "audiophile" friends couldn't hear smearing or distortion in a single-blind test we conducted, until I gave him a little training about what to listen for.

What's your price range for any new gear? There's some great tube pre-amps and amps out there, but they do tend to be more expensive than anything solid-state. Plus, some of them have coloration in mind while others don't.

 

[JerryLove]

It's possible the analog inputs on the receiver will go through a digital volume control or a solid-state gain stage, in which case your receiver can still color the sound coming from the tube pre-amp.

Which would be an issue except that every well built solid-state amp is flat from well below 20 to well above 20k and so adds no audiable coloration (unless you have an EQ running).

 

[Seth=L]

The worst of Alex has worn off on you.

 

[mike c]

The worst of Alex has worn off on you.

i managed to resist doing that a few times, but the temptation was just too great.

alex made me do it.

 

[WmAx]

It's possible the analog inputs on the receiver will go through a digital volume control or a solid-state gain stage, in which case your receiver can still color the sound coming from the tube pre-amp.

As Jerry pointed out....the digital/SS is not going to color the sound; it's going to pass whatever you send it. The coloration usually takes place on the tube side.

-Chris

 

[jostenmeat]

The worst of Alex has worn off on you.

Then now he can live the rest of his life with the greatest freedom he has ever known.

Oh boy Tcarcio you may have opened up a huge can of worms with that article, interesting read though.
I'm sure some die hard Tube Amp fans out there are going to have something different to say.
I can comment on the sound quality difference between Tube amps and digital amps with respect to musical instruments. I play guitar and I will say with 100% confidence tube amps sound infinately better. Eveyone knows changing the tube manufacturers you run in them will provide very different tone to your your music. I fail to see how this would differ in home audio game. Like I said Im not much of a techie and could be way off base trying to compare Guitar tube amp properties to Home audio tube amps. ( if I am, I would appreciate enlightenment)
Thanks for the reply, definate food for thought.
Shawn.

I am also a musician, and have known plenty of others, and you're right that many guitarists love their tubes, and furthermore believe that such benefits must surely work as well for other things audio. But, firstly, there is a fundamental difference between the production of a certain tone, and the reproduction of that certain tone. If I preferred the tone of a certain trumpet with a mute on, I'm not going to try to put a large mute attached to the drivers of my speakers.

Now, if it's true that any set of tubes roll off the highs, then that would surely sound better to many people if the perceptual studies that I've seen people cite are true. We humans enjoy rolled off highs. Certain speaker experts here will get the most linear/flattest speakers they can, to which they will EQ the roll off. Or even some auto EQ setups like Audyssey come with their own house curve, yep, rolled off highs.

I'm certain tubed products can sound beautifully, but I just would never say they would sound "infinitely better" than solid state products.

For me, tubes represent too much of a PIA, in terms of convenience, for an amplifier, because of the maintenance, or at the very least, having to change them out on a regular basis. I would need to warm them up first before listening, right? Meh. OTOH, I am much more likely to try tubes in my source or preamp, as those represent much less mainetenance.

I respect those that enjoy their tubes, but I would read a whole lot more before you offer that tubes sound infinitely better.

 

[fullhoused]

I may have spoken out of turn. I should have simply stated in IMHO. not to turn this into a guitar amp forum but I find it interesting the vast number of SS guitar amps that are "modeling amps". They all have the same "classic tube amp" emulators. Funny they are all seeking that tube amp sound. I've owned various ( and currently am using one) and they just don't get there. But that could be a product of my playing.
Back to the original topic. Thanks for the replys all. I am starting to get the sense from speaking people that, money spent on speakers will go farther to get better sound quality out of my turntable given my current set up. I'll most likely start there. Which I'm sure will lead to questions on what speakers to go with.

 

[JerryLove]

A tube adds sonic color.
Imagine it like a rose-tinted lense.

The view of those who don't like tube amps for reproduction is "If the photographer put a rose-lense on it, and I use rose-colored glasses, it's gonna be too much". It's a basic belief that the audio gear should reproduce the sound as it exists on the media (CD, record, whatever).

Plus, if you *want* to color a certain peice: it's easy to do with otherwise flat equipment. Try to get a tube amp to *Stop* rolling off highs.

 

[Josuah]

Which would be an issue except that every well built solid-state amp is flat from well below 20 to well above 20k and so adds no audiable coloration (unless you have an EQ running).

Frequency amplitude is not the only type of audible coloration. You can have two units with identical frequency response and measured sine/sweep THD and they can still sound (and measure) very different when playing music.