Stance on pirating?

[highfigh]

Unless you defeated a copy-protection scheme to do it: then it's a violcation of the DCMA.

But such prescient has been superseded. You are not allowed to decode DirectTV without paying the company. The ruling is narrowly interpreted. You also cannot legally "steal cable": that is to say watch unencrypted cable signals by manually connecting two wires on the wall of your own house, without paying.

The DCMA is way newer than the original vinyl to tape copying debate but IMO, the principal is the same- the difference is that there was no way to keep a tape recorder from copying an album. Digital recordings have made it possible for the recording industry to have a temporary advantage on copying, until someone comes up with a way to bypass it.

DirecTV, cable, U-Verse and Dish are user fee only broadcasts and since they're encrypted, it's hard to steal, but C-Band was unencrypted and the satellite industry was adament about the airwaves being free unless it was scrambled.

Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h9ND9UDRkA

 

[highfigh]

What's your point? I don't get what you are trying to say about drinking in excess not being a victimless crime. If I drink at home, and stay at home, who did I hurt?

Just to be clear- I don't think drinking to excess is victimless, nor is heavy drug use. When a friend got married, the guys in the wedding party were all friends of the groom, from childhood or college. One of the guys (Brad) was a big drinker and while he started the day as humorous, as the night wore on, he became more difficult to deal with to the point that he had counted his beer and accused the rest of us of stealing some. Fast forward a few years and when the groom came back to MKE for Summerfest, we gathered at a downtown bar where Brad hung out a lot. He lived within walking distance and when we left to go to the fest, Brad couldn't even walk without falling. Five hours later, we went back and Brad was still there, shyte-faced. Brad didn't drive, and it's a good thing. Now, that wouldn't have been so bad if it was as bad as it got and other than friends and family seeing him losing himself in alcohol, he really didn't affect many people in a bad way. Unfortunately, Brad was far too trusting of people he knew from the bars and even some who had treated him badly in high school. This resulted in him being beaten and stabbed to death in his apartment after inviting some people he knew from the bar for an after-hours party. I got a call from the groom one afternoon in '03, informing me that the memorial service would be held that evening.

I fail to see how this was victimless. People who drink and drug to excess lose the ability to make decisions that are in their best interest and in the best interest of others. Brad wouldn't have hurt anyone and at the time of his death, he had been working on quitting his drinking because, among other reasons, he had been having seizures. Many would see him as a weak, pathetic drunk who had no self-control but for some, alcohol or a particular drug is like a key opening a lock- many times, the first sensation in life is withdrawal from whatever their mother had abused while she was pregnant. There's often no problem until the first drink or first time using one drug or another and some people turn into what is referred to as a 'garbage can', because they'll throw down whatever drugs they can get. A pregnant woman drinking or drugging is definitely not victimless and the way Brad died was far from it, too.

Sorry to bring this down but when people haven't experienced this kind of thing, they don't always see the whole picture.

 

[Shock]

The only victim is my liver....and it's not speaking up right now!

I told it, that if it spoke up I would put some more pints through it.

 

[JerryLove]

Sorry to bring this down but when people haven't experienced this kind of thing, they don't always see the whole picture.

So someone not gettnig enough sleep also makes worse decisions and reacts more slowly. In fact, that may be the deciding factor in, for example, breaking fast enough and may result in a death. Is it immoral to go to work when you are short on sleep?

Failing to exercise hurts your health. That effects people around you in many of the "hate to see him decend into alchololism" ways you described. It also places a burden on the medical system and (it seems) is socially contageous. Is not exercising immoral?

It just seems I could make anticdotal examples for pretty much any activity (kid watching superman jumped off the roof) and show tragic outcomes. Because of that, I'd rule it out as a standard of morality.

Though, to tie it into this topic: No one died from copyright infringement, so it would seem "less bad" than getting drunk. LOL

 

[mtrycrafts]

Drinking and drug use don't harm others? Please! You don't know that many addicts support their habit through crime? They don't drive while wasted and kill people? They don't ruin the lives of people in their family or their friendships?

Last I heard, homosexuality isn't generally prosecuted as a crime (although it can be, in some places) but as far as loose sex, you have never heard about people becoming infected and infecting others with diseases that can kill, maim or incapacitate? What would you consider intentionally or indifferently infecting someone with AIDS- a minor inconvenience for the person infected? How are these not causing harm to the other people?

If the person never interacts with anyone else and can have all the drugs, alcohol and sex they want, they won't harm anyone else but that's not how it happens.

Except for the drug and alcohol related side effects, the others have willing participants, usually, even though they catch a disease. That possibility is out there and precautions are available.

 

[markw]

Just to be clear- I don't think drinking to excess is victimless, nor is heavy drug use. When a friend got married, the guys in the wedding party were all friends of the groom, from childhood or college. One of the guys (Brad) was a big drinker and while he started the day as humorous, as the night wore on, he became more difficult to deal with to the point that he had counted his beer and accused the rest of us of stealing some. Fast forward a few years and when the groom came back to MKE for Summerfest, we gathered at a downtown bar where Brad hung out a lot. He lived within walking distance and when we left to go to the fest, Brad couldn't even walk without falling. Five hours later, we went back and Brad was still there, shyte-faced. Brad didn't drive, and it's a good thing. Now, that wouldn't have been so bad if it was as bad as it got and other than friends and family seeing him losing himself in alcohol, he really didn't affect many people in a bad way. Unfortunately, Brad was far too trusting of people he knew from the bars and even some who had treated him badly in high school. This resulted in him being beaten and stabbed to death in his apartment after inviting some people he knew from the bar for an after-hours party. I got a call from the groom one afternoon in '03, informing me that the memorial service would be held that evening.

I fail to see how this was victimless. People who drink and drug to excess lose the ability to make decisions that are in their best interest and in the best interest of others. Brad wouldn't have hurt anyone and at the time of his death, he had been working on quitting his drinking because, among other reasons, he had been having seizures. Many would see him as a weak, pathetic drunk who had no self-control but for some, alcohol or a particular drug is like a key opening a lock- many times, the first sensation in life is withdrawal from whatever their mother had abused while she was pregnant. There's often no problem until the first drink or first time using one drug or another and some people turn into what is referred to as a 'garbage can', because they'll throw down whatever drugs they can get. A pregnant woman drinking or drugging is definitely not victimless and the way Brad died was far from it, too.

Sorry to bring this down but when people haven't experienced this kind of thing, they don't always see the whole picture.

As sorry as i am to read about anyone's death, it seems he was the only victim here and all that does is reinforce my point. If he could fall victim to his own demons so easily, he had other issues and the alcohol was just an excuse to loose them.

I guess the real question on my mind is that how could you and the rest of his/your friends let him get so wasted to begin with and then leave him alone in such a vulnerable state?

 

[highfigh]

Except for the drug and alcohol related side effects, the others have willing participants, usually, even though they catch a disease. That possibility is out there and precautions are available.

What about rape victims?

 

[highfigh]

As sorry as i am to read about anyone's death, it seems he was the only victim here and all that does is reinforce my point. If he could fall victim to his own demons so easily, he had other issues and the alcohol was just an excuse to loose them.

I guess the real question on my mind is that how could you and the rest of his/your friends let him get so wasted to begin with and then leave him alone in such a vulnerable state?

Victim in the literal sense but others are definitely affected. I never heard him use drinking as an excuse for dealing with other issues. Luckily, he didn't drive- I'm sure I would never have met him because he would have been in a bad crash well before that time. I'm sure anyone who drinks like a fish has issues that they're trying to drown, or they started that way and didn't stop when the issues had been blotted away and all but forgotten. Some start out as social drinkers and it develops into looking for an excuse to go out or to a party.

I only knew him through another friend and had little contact with him, although the night he accused us of taking his beer (when I first met him), a couple of us took him aside and tried to get him to see what he was doing. As far as his friends, they drank quite a bit, too and friends like that usually don't try to get others to stop unless it's really bad. I'm npt sure most people know any of the warning signs, either. I can't say if they tried to get him to slow down/stop, or not. From what they said at the service, some of them had and at least one had talked to one of his brothers about him. To a certain extent, I think most people are reluctant to say anything in a situation like this because they don't know how to begin, stop preaching or don't want to admit that there's a problem. Some people just don't see that they have a problem and as it has been said, they won't try to stop until they reach rock bottom and realize they're in trouble.

That's the problem with people- they think they have more control over their life than they do. When someone says "I don't have a problem, can stop anytime I want", it's time to step in.

 

[cfrizz]

This has been a very interesting & thought provoking thread thank you!

Everyone has made interesting & valid points on ALL sides. Some I want to bring up.

If one chooses to drink to excess in their own home (and STAY there) & crash afterwards is free to do so. If that is their choice then they can deal with the after effects on their own as well. They are the only ones being hurt.

Now as for the sleeping around, I have seen the unintentional damage done to an unsuspecting person. I work in insurance & one of our customers had to get medical testing for his application. We had to decline because he tested postive for HIV. Now he had to tell his FIANCEE' who was to be the benficiary that he couldn't get insurance & why. Now if she has been having unprotected sex with him, there is a good chance that SHE now has HIV.

He may not have intended to get HIV when he slept around but it happened & he has now probably spread it at the very least to his fiancee' if not others.

There is a very good reason why the majority of my cd collection is greatest hits. Very few artists are capable or talented enough to put out an entire album for 18-20 bucks a pop that are worth buying.

One of the best things ever invented is listening stations in stores, I have walked away from wasting my money buying an album that I discovered that all of the songs sounded the same on.

And I don't know or care if it is illegal or not, but I usually now buy most of my cd's used in stores or from Amazon.

 

[highfigh]

This has been a very interesting & thought provoking thread thank you!

Everyone has made interesting & valid points on ALL sides. Some I want to bring up.

If one chooses to drink to excess in their own home (and STAY there) & crash afterwards is free to do so. If that is their choice then they can deal with the after effects on their own as well. They are the only ones being hurt.

Now as for the sleeping around, I have seen the unintentional damage done to an unsuspecting person. I work in insurance & one of our customers had to get medical testing for his application. We had to decline because he tested postive for HIV. Now he had to tell his FIANCEE' who was to be the benficiary that he couldn't get insurance & why. Now if she has been having unprotected sex with him, there is a good chance that SHE now has HIV.

He may not have intended to get HIV when he slept around but it happened & he has now probably spread it at the very least to his fiancee' if not others.

There is a very good reason why the majority of my cd collection is greatest hits. Very few artists are capable or talented enough to put out an entire album for 18-20 bucks a pop that are worth buying.

One of the best things ever invented is listening stations in stores, I have walked away from wasting my money buying an album that I discovered that all of the songs sounded the same on.

And I don't know or care if it is illegal or not, but I usually now buy most of my cd's used in stores or from Amazon.

Used software doesn't pay anything to the artist so in that sense, it's similar but not illegal. The royalties have been paid but there's no residual payment, like radio, TV or movie play. I'm not sure how it works when playing a song on the 'net but I can find out. I think listening stations are great, as well as clips on the 'net- it gives the potential buyer some idea of the songs and hopefully, the section is representative of the real quality of the songs instead of the best parts. Exposure is a good thing- every time someone hears something and likes it, they tell others.

 

[MidnightSensi]

One of the best things ever invented is listening stations in stores, I have walked away from wasting my money buying an album that I discovered that all of the songs sounded the same on.

I recently have been spending some time in a recording studio that does a lot of music that has done well, including pop and rap songs and records that have done well on the charts.

The thing that struck me about the process, is that it really is "mastering engineering." The music is so processed it is unbelievable. I watched a hip-hop artist record (one you would recognize), and for the chorus (which had female vocals), they basically just needed a girl to lay down some vocals, then they fixed her key, pitch, everything downstream. She was okay, but by the time they were done processing her vocals, she sounded amazing. The rap artist just layed down his raps, and then the timing was fixed, everything down to how things were enunciated. The beat was made by a talented producer, who recorded half of the stuff just using a microphone beatboxing, DAW and imagination.

I say that to say this: Music sounds the same now days because the engineers that make it are so good that they can turn mediocre, pretty, sociable people into singers. The marketing department picks the right person, and then these engineers build the albums so that anyone could sound good. It didn't used to be this way, you had to have a musician to make a amazing album. Now you can engineer them.

Don't get me wrong, I love music and I still think there are great musicians out there, I'm just speaking about a lot of what is chart-topping.

At clubs down here sometimes they'll do concerts with pop stars. The band they have behind them is super-talented, or if its beats/sampled stuff its pre-recorded. Then most either lip-synch, or they have a microphone with inline processing.

 

[JerryLove]

I say that to say this: Music sounds the same now days because the engineers that make it are so good that they can turn mediocre, pretty, sociable people into singers. The marketing department picks the right person, and then these engineers build the albums so that anyone could sound good. It didn't used to be this way, you had to have a musician to make a amazing album. Now you can engineer them.

I have love for a few artists that would otherwise not interest me because I've heard them unplugged.

Extreme's lead singer was very talented. I got to hear songs like "more than words" sitting about 10' away from him and the band.

 

[GirgleMirt]

billions of dollars losses

A download doesn't necessarily mean a lost sale, it more often than not would have never been a sale.

If someone was handing out free Mr.T sings Christmas carols cds in the streets, you can be relatively sure he'd have no trouble handing out hundreds of free copies. But how many people who buy the cds for 20 bucks a pop? Therefore, even if someone was handing out 200 free Mr.T sings Christmas carols cds and 200 people picked them up hey, just because it's free, it really doesn't translate into 4000$ losses since the majority who picked up the free copies wouldn't have bought it anyhow.

Of course, those 200 people might listen to the CD and notice that Mr-T couldn't sing to save his life and not purchase the CD because of it, but hey, life's hard, pity the fool who buys a cd and then regrets it because he then finds out that it totally sucks...

I think many use piracy to sample stuff and then purchase what they feel is worth it, but it's somewhat hard to defend because often free samples are available, surely it doesn't help that going legit often gets you a lot more headaches than getting pirated stuff (CD protection which causes more problems to legitimate customers than pirates, limited # of copies for purchased mp3s, etc) or that sometimes some of the prices are exorbitant... I really think it's time for industries to adapt.