YPAO problem

[jinjuku]

I dispute that. That is Lucas labs idea to emasculate perfectly good speakers with an unnecessary crossover. There have been a number of studies and a paper given at the Holland AES that had good evidence Lucas labs are wrong. I have felt Lucas labs were wrong from my researches. A good capable speaker should be set the large in my view for music and HT. The small settings should be used for incapable speakers.

I agree 100%. I have never neutered, tower speakers especially, that can play authoritatively below 80hz.

 

[jeanseb]

I'm now more confused than ever :S

 

[supervij]

I have mains (Athena F2) that go down to 35 Hz. For 2-channel music, I run them full-range, and they really do sound wonderful. But for multi-channel music and movies, I run them as small because there's usually deeper and louder bass than on CDs (the ones I listen to, anyway).

Is this a sensible method?

cheers,
supervij

 

[3db]

I'm now more confused than ever :S

Don't worry about it. Just experiment for yourself and see what sounds best for you.

When I run YPAO, I set all my speakers to small including the towers so that all bass goes to the sub. I then tell YPAO to skip checking speaker size. I'm pleased with the reslts I get for Home Theater.

However, when listening to two channel .aka cd or my turntable, I go to direct mode and run my towers full range.

 

[jeanseb]

I have to say that my subs are doing a better job than my towers. Well calibrated, they punch very cleanly and very powerfully.

Like the Audioholic's BM article state, bass needs a lot of power to be reproduce, so why don't let your powered sub do it and leave more power to your AVR for mids and highs? Specially if you have 2 powerfull SW?

 

[zumbo]

I have to say that my subs are doing a better job than my towers. Well calibrated, they punch very cleanly and very powerfully.

Like the Audioholic's BM article state, bass needs a lot of power to be reproduce, so why don't let your powered sub do it and leave more power to your AVR for mids and highs? Specially if you have 2 powerfull SW?

Your reply here is spot-on.

3db also gave very good advice about pure direct. With my smaller towers, I still prefer 2.1. However, your YPAO is now set correctly.

Don't worry about it. Just experiment for yourself and see what sounds best for you.

When I run YPAO, I set all my speakers to small including the towers so that all bass goes to the sub. I then tell YPAO to skip checking speaker size. I'm pleased with the reslts I get for Home Theater.

However, when listening to two channel .aka cd or my turntable, I go to direct mode and run my towers full range.

 

[zumbo]

This reply is clearly why one should not send LFE(BOTH setting) to non-full-range mains. Action movies have some powerful LFE signals.

I have mains (Athena F2) that go down to 35 Hz. For 2-channel music, I run them full-range, and they really do sound wonderful. But for multi-channel music and movies, I run them as small because there's usually deeper and louder bass than on CDs (the ones I listen to, anyway).

Is this a sensible method?

cheers,
supervij

 

[zumbo]

Here is another thing to think about. We count on our mid-woofers in our mains to re-produce vocals, strings, brass, tom toms, and other mid-range sounds accurately. If the mid-woofers are moving back and forth vigorously trying to re-produce frequencies intended for sub-woofers, just think how this movement disrupts the accuracy of the mid-range you need them to re-produce.

 

[jeanseb]

Here is another thing to think about. We count on our mid-woofers in our mains to re-produce vocals, strings, brass, tom toms, and other mid-range sounds accurately. If the mid-woofers are moving back and forth vigorously trying to re-produce frequencies intended for sub-woofers, just think how this movement disrupts the accuracy of the mid-range you need them to re-produce.

I've just realize that my speakers are more capable [by setting everything right] than what I believed the could do.

 

[zumbo]

I've just realize that my speakers are more capable [by setting everything right] than what I believed the could do.

When you get to the level of feeling the vocals in your chest as if someone were punching you with their voice, you know you are headed in the right direction.

 

[Rocket88]

I'm new to the site and have to say thanks to all of you for your insight.
I too had the same thing happen as jeanseb did with my RXV863.
After reading all of your posts through the day I spent the good part of this evening re-setting my system, what a huge difference!
I still have lots to learn and plenty of tweaking to do, but I think I'm on the right path thanks to you folks.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have to say that my subs are doing a better job than my towers. Well calibrated, they punch very cleanly and very powerfully.

Like the Audioholic's BM article state, bass needs a lot of power to be reproduce, so why don't let your powered sub do it and leave more power to your AVR for mids and highs? Specially if you have 2 powerfull SW?

The problem is a decent speaker competently designed should be allowed to perform the way the designer intended. The bass tuning is an important part of any speakers voicing.

So if you have a speaker that rolls off acoustically at 40 Hz say, then rolling it off at 80 Hz is making nonsense of the designers intent. So if you then supplement the last octave with a sub as the speaker rolls off, then you have minimal violence done in terms of phase etc. You always want to use acoustic crossovers as much as possible.

Now we get this myth again that bass takes all this energy to reproduce. It doesn't. There is very little acoustical energy below 60 Hz, I see that all the time on my energy spectrum meter.

The reason you think it takes a lot of energy is that subs are very insensitive and inefficient because they are too small. If they had the same efficiency and sensitivity as the mains, they would take very little power. My bass amps don't break a sweat, not even in HT.

The sub Matt is building will only need about one or two watts and threaten to destroy the house, but its not small.

The acoustical energy is really concentrated between 80 and 1500 Hz. That is where you need power handling capability. That is where the acoustic energy is that is radiated into the room. That is why small pipsqueak mains and centers are not the way to go, for really realistic reproduction.

 

[3db]

The problem is a decent speaker competently designed should be allowed to perform the way the designer intended. The bass tuning is an important part of any speakers voicing.

So if you have a speaker that rolls off acoustically at 40 Hz say, then rolling it off at 80 Hz is making nonsense of the designers intent. So if you then supplement the last octave with a sub as the speaker rolls off, then you have minimal violence done in terms of phase etc. You always want to use acoustic crossovers as much as possible.

Now we get this myth again that bass takes all this energy to reproduce. It doesn't. There is very little acoustical energy below 60 Hz, I see that all the time on my energy spectrum meter.

The reason you think it takes a lot of energy is that subs are very insensitive and inefficient because they are too small. If they had the same efficiency and sensitivity as the mains, they would take very little power. My bass amps don't break a sweat, not even in HT.

The sub Matt is building will only need about one or two watts and threaten to destroy the house, but its not small.

The acoustical energy is really concentrated between 80 and 1500 Hz. That is where you need power handling capability. That is where the acoustic energy is that is radiated into the room. That is why small pipsqueak mains and centers are not the way to go, for really realistic reproduction.

A question for you just to clarify what you are saying about the energy;

a.) The spectral energy between 80 and 1500 Hz; Is this because thats the majoriity of the frequencies of what we listen to reside in that band?
b.) If one were to apply a single sine wave, played seperately, what would require more power to reproduce, the 40, 60, 80, 100, 200..up to 1500Hz ?

General commnet. Speakers with the calibre that you are talkigng about are pricey. My PSB T45s with 2 5.25" drivers are at -10db at 32 Hz . At around 40 Hz, they begin to deliver the bass with some authority. However, I'm leary that I could easily destroy the drivers if I cranked them full range in HT because of some of the insane bass content in the sound tracks. It would be more prudent to let a sub handle that then to risk damaging what other wise are great speakers.

 

[Rocket88]

After trying different settings last night I noticed that the bass seemed thin.
I have my sub (an Athena PS400) wired in the direct mode, this bypasses the adjustable crossover in the sub.
After some more playing I reversed the phase on the sub and it made a big difference.
Is phase reversal ok, will it hurt the sub at all?
In my mind it seems like a bandaid cure for what could be an adjustment issue.

 

[3db]

After trying different settings last night I noticed that the bass seemed thin.
I have my sub (an Athena PS400) wired in the direct mode, this bypasses the adjustable crossover in the sub.
After some more playing I reversed the phase on the sub and it made a big difference.
Is phase reversal ok, will it hurt the sub at all?
In my mind it seems like a bandaid cure for what could be an adjustment issue.

They would not put a feature into a sub that would cause damage. Bass wavelength is extemely long. Imagine if you will a sine wave of 25 Hz travelling from the sub into the room. Relative to the sub, your seating position maybe at or close to a null (where the wave crosses the x axes). Thats why you hear weak bass. There are two options to correct this. The physical method is to move the distance between the sub and seating position so that you are in the higher amplitude of the bass wave or electrically (2nd method) move the signal (via teh phase control) to advance or retard teh signal so that you are located in the higher amplitude of the signal. I hope this helps.

 

[jeanseb]

After trying different settings last night I noticed that the bass seemed thin.
I have my sub (an Athena PS400) wired in the direct mode, this bypasses the adjustable crossover in the sub.
After some more playing I reversed the phase on the sub and it made a big difference.
Is phase reversal ok, will it hurt the sub at all?
In my mind it seems like a bandaid cure for what could be an adjustment issue.

I'm not a "Ninja" neither a "Samurai", but I don't think that dephasing a speaker (when needed) is bad for it. Sometimes it is inevitable due to placement restrictions.

 

[zumbo]

The problem is a decent speaker competently designed should be allowed to perform the way the designer intended. The bass tuning is an important part of any speakers voicing.

So if you have a speaker that rolls off acoustically at 40 Hz say, then rolling it off at 80 Hz is making nonsense of the designers intent. So if you then supplement the last octave with a sub as the speaker rolls off, then you have minimal violence done in terms of phase etc. You always want to use acoustic crossovers as much as possible.

Now we get this myth again that bass takes all this energy to reproduce. It doesn't. There is very little acoustical energy below 60 Hz, I see that all the time on my energy spectrum meter.

The reason you think it takes a lot of energy is that subs are very insensitive and inefficient because they are too small. If they had the same efficiency and sensitivity as the mains, they would take very little power. My bass amps don't break a sweat, not even in HT.

The sub Matt is building will only need about one or two watts and threaten to destroy the house, but its not small.

The acoustical energy is really concentrated between 80 and 1500 Hz. That is where you need power handling capability. That is where the acoustic energy is that is radiated into the room. That is why small pipsqueak mains and centers are not the way to go, for really realistic reproduction.

I totally understand where you are coming from, and your knowledge is very much appreciated.

I wish my budget would allow for B&W 801/802 as my mains, for that matter, all around for killer SACD/dvd-a performance. However, as many others, there is a limit to the system at hand.

If your statement of acoustical energy between 80-1500 is correct, which I do not doubt one bit, isn't that more reason to free-up as much reserve power as possible for those frequencies?

Also, I am not in a debate for the goal of winning. These debates are very informative for all, and I very much enjoy the good points from everyone that come from them. Every member has a right for how they feel, as every member has a right to take from this thread what they need.

Good thread.

 

[TLS Guy]

A question for you just to clarify what you are saying about the energy;

a.) The spectral energy between 80 and 1500 Hz; Is this because thats the majoriity of the frequencies of what we listen to reside in that band?
b.) If one were to apply a single sine wave, played seperately, what would require more power to reproduce, the 40, 60, 80, 100, 200..up to 1500Hz ?

General commnet. Speakers with the calibre that you are talkigng about are pricey. My PSB T45s with 2 5.25" drivers are at -10db at 32 Hz . At around 40 Hz, they begin to deliver the bass with some authority. However, I'm leary that I could easily destroy the drivers if I cranked them full range in HT because of some of the insane bass content in the sound tracks. It would be more prudent to let a sub handle that then to risk damaging what other wise are great speakers.

If the speakers are of equal sensitivity and efficiency then the power required for a given spl is independent of frequency.

I agree about this fad for very small drivers. That complicates the issue. However a speaker with 5.25" inch, unless it has a most unusual motor system, is going to be limited in bass output.

A 5.5 inch driver will have a cone area of around 11.5 sq. in., so 23 sq. in for two.

A 7' driver will have a cone area of around 20 sq. in., so 40 sq. in. for two drivers which is a lot more useful. This is 6 sq.in. more than a single 8" driver.

For two way/2.5 way designs the sweet spot for driver size is 6.5" to 7", I think. This gives enough frequency extension before cone break up, usually. Once you get larger, then cone break up is likely to come too early.

 

[3db]

If the speakers are of equal sensitivity and efficiency then the power required for a given spl is independent of frequency.

Are you saying then the power content in that narrow bandwidth between 80 and 1500 Hz is because most of what we listen too lies in that frequency spectrum?

From an amplifier point of view I always thought bass would be harder to drive because the duty cycle ( an incorrect term here I realize) is much longer which causes a bigger strain on the power supplies. Also, unless my memory is failing me, low impedances of speakers tend to be near the 80Hz and lower mark.

I agree about this fad for very small drivers. That complicates the issue. However a speaker with 5.25" inch, unless it has a most unusual motor system, is going to be limited in bass output.

A 5.5 inch driver will have a cone area of around 11.5 sq. in., so 23 sq. in for two.

A 7' driver will have a cone area of around 20 sq. in., so 40 sq. in. for two drivers which is a lot more useful. This is 6 sq.in. more than a single 8" driver.

For two way/2.5 way designs the sweet spot for driver size is 6.5" to 7", I think. This gives enough frequency extension before cone break up, usually. Once you get larger, then cone break up is likely to come too early.

The PSBs I have do bass well for most types of music with the exception of organ music and rap. When I do listen to Bach's Tochatta (I know I misspelled that one) I will use my towers with the sub.

 

[jeanseb]

Hey guys, here's some update.

So I tought that my mid bass problem was solve, but the problem is that I have (at least, feel) a HUGE peak around 23-30Hz. I'm now thinking strongly about getting an SMS-1 to solve that issue for good.

Or would an AVR like a Denon with Audyssey would do the same job as an SMS-1?

Thanks!