DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[randyb]

Yup, he sure had deep feelings. Like the deep feelings he had for all the causes he exploited using raffles and the good will of the internet community. Justice is coming baby.

Boy, if there is a karma in the world, this guy's reckoning is overdue.

 

[MinusTheBear]

How many outstanding issues are there still? I recall one person saying that he received his LS9 last month, how many the month before shipped etc? How many more people are still in limbo on this issue or with any other products that they are waiting for? Refunds? Have not heard any updates on this issue in months? Raffles??

Maybe there should be monthly update on the issues that get resolved and that are still outstanding to put everything in perspective. Not much seems to be happening though, only a thing here and there. Do you realize when the OP created this thread?

 

[Chu Gai]

How many outstanding issues are there still? I recall one person saying that he received his LS9 last month, how many the month before shipped etc?

I can't put a finger on the number Bear other than to say it doesn't seem like a lot. Skiman I believe is still waiting and IIRC, The Ninja was originally promised LS-9's as part of some personal settlement with MLS but indicated he'd 'downgrade' to LS-6's if that would somehow expedite matters. Expedite seems to mean different things whether your Sean or MLS. The problem in figuring numbers as you know is there's no central place that folks went after the 123 forums shut down for several months and some I suspect just left and conduct their business by email or phone.

If MLS was really sincere in looking to satisfy already paid for LS-whatevers in a timely fashion, then giving good old Ruben the boot and saying he's once again going back with Lucid seems counterproductive. Why not use both resources to make the cabinets? My skeptical nature makes me think the reasons are that he's looking to stall people a little longer in part because he needs to come up with the cash that'll forestall foreclosure on his home as well as the possibility that Lucid is giving him a better price on the cabinets than Ruben.

How many more people are still in limbo on this issue or with any other products that they are waiting for? Refunds? Have not heard any updates on this issue in months? Raffles??

Well, there's still the issue of amps for the UFW/ULW subs that haven't been delivered. There was a fellow who posted he'd won one of the raffles but never received his MFW-15! Sundry other problems also get posted from time to time. AFAIK, you've got around a dozen people who plonked down 6K to be beta testers for the RSL-II's that never got their money back. Last I heard none of the raffles (Derek, Fabrikant, Hugh, Ballet Nouveau) have received additional monies. With respect to some of the other raffles, I'm not at liberty to publicly say what's going on. In addition there are still people, let's call them investors, who are out considerable amounts (6-figure numbers give or take a bit) and at least one has pursued legal remedy. Then you've got past (I call them past because they don't seem to be willing to do any business with Shifty at this time) employees that are owed very substantial amounts. I'd say Shifty and 123 are very deep in the red but he still manages to get enough strength to say 'Humbly' from time to time.

Maybe there should be monthly update on the issues that get resolved and that are still outstanding to put everything in perspective. Not much seems to be happening though, only a thing here and there. Do you realize when the OP created this thread?

Myself, I've given as much of an update as I publicly can. IMO, while some progress has been made, and I ain't talking a lot now, it remains to be seen whether the Coast Guard will come to rescue Shifty or take him to the authorities. Drop me a PM and if I can be more forthcoming I will.

 

[stevo238]

A new quote from MLS...

Thought I would take a moment and post a few photos of one of the test candidates for the new Twin 8 subwoofer...

Been kickin' around an official name for this product - and I came up with Sub Stantial...

You'll soon see why if you look below... Here are some photos of this test driver...



All the best...

mls

I think the name Sub Standard would be more apt. Surely even MLS could think ahead and figure out the fun we could have with that name.

 

[Chu Gai]

Is there any truth to the rumor that the twin 8 sub will be coming with all the screws and a manual? I know they've licked the problem of putting out enough cracked veneer to satisfy the demands for B stock.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Is there any truth to the rumor that the twin 8 sub will be coming with all the screws and a manual? I know they've licked the problem of putting out enough cracked veneer to satisfy the demands for B stock.

Well the marketing department...errrr MS would have to change the name from sub-standard.

There is a new happy dual MFW owner on the 123 forum. Both subs hummed and he has noticed some "flapping" among other things. Thanks to the great customer service over there, breaking in the subs is being stressed rather than helping solve the ground loop problem and maybe asking him to look for any stripped screws which in the past has caused the "flap"... or audyssey could be doing something strange....just wait for them to break in and it will make all the improvement (alteast one person asked about placement which is good)

 

[Chu Gai]

Well the marketing department...errrr MS would have to change the name from sub-standard.

There is a new happy dual MFW owner on the 123 forum. Both subs hummed and he has noticed some "flapping" among other things. Thanks to the great customer service over there, breaking in the subs is being stressed rather than helping solve the ground loop problem and maybe asking him to look for any stripped screws which in the past has caused the "flap"... or audyssey could be doing something strange....just wait for them to break in and it will make all the improvement (alteast one person asked about placement which is good)

I didn't follow 123 especially closely in the past, but when situations like this arose in the past, were the replies as equally incompetent? Also, does anyone know if the subs have been remeasured with the new amp with the results being compared to the original?

 

[MinusTheBear]

I didn't follow 123 especially closely in the past, but when situations like this arose in the past, were the replies as equally incompetent? Also, does anyone know if the subs have been remeasured with the new amp with the results being compared to the original?

Well there is a history when someone was not satisfied there was always some posts that the speaker or subwoofer need to "break-in" or blame it on other matters like the amplification etc. Not to say there isn't some good advice given from some people but the AV123 forum touts hype, snake oil and highly subjective and unscientific claims more so than a lot of other audio companies.

 

[Matt34]

....but the AV123 forum touts hype, snake oil and highly subjective and unscientific claims more so than a lot of other audio companies.

You need to check out the Polk forum sometime, AV123 can't hold a candle to what nonsense is posted over there.

 

[Chu Gai]

Gotcha. I also see the Shifty is heavily into having people that have problems call him rather than have forum discussions. Good way to do public damage control, I'd say

Also, have you seen the people who've sprung for the UFW-12 HR's are now reporting hissing (amp issues?) as well as a clicking sound. This is what Doug Goldberg said...

The UFW-12 HR driver cone material is metal (Al) and given it size it does tend to resonate with when excited by test tones. I suspect this what is being heard during calibration.

Maybe UFW stands for UnderFunded Woofer?

 

[MinusTheBear]

Gotcha. I also see the Shifty is heavily into having people that have problems call him rather than have forum discussions. Good way to do public damage control, I'd say

Also, have you seen the people who've sprung for the UFW-12 HR's are now reporting hissing (amp issues?) as well as a clicking sound. This is what Doug Goldberg said...
Maybe UFW stands for UnderFunded Woofer?

In the past when the hype, misinformation and fanboys was flowing like gold, all issues no matter how bad they looked were taken care publically. It almost seemed like he went out of way during that period to publically resolve issues and take care of problems. AVS forum was a good example of this. Now it is the complete opposite.

 

[SlushPuppy]

The old AV123 forum was much more than just fanboys nuthugging MLS and defending his products when they weren't up to snuff. There were great threads on music, cigars, beer, food, just about anything in between. I personally had over 2000 posts on the "What are you listening to?" thread. Probably around 2200 before the forum shut down. In many ways it was more a "community of friends" than an audio forum.

To say everyone over there was a Kool-Aid drinker is disingenuous. Of course they existed, but most of the good guys avoided those types of threads. I personally received some of the best advise on positioning and calibrating subwoofers I've seen anywhere. Bossobass could have written a book on the subject. My music collection is much better today because of the music recommendations I got there. Hell, I shed tears when someone posted about their dog passing away. It was a great place to hang out.

That said, I didn't go back when the forum reopened and the truth about the raffles came out. I have no plans of ever going back. MSL did a terrible thing and should be punished. What an awful thing to do. What makes it worse is the fact it was going on the entire time I was active on the forum.

Anyway, all I'm saying is don't lump us all together. There are fanboys and nuthuggers on every forum. I and many others weren't.

 

[gonk]

The old AV123 forum was much more than just fanboys nuthugging MLS and defending his products when they weren't up to snuff. There were great threads on music, cigars, beer, food, just about anything in between. I personally had over 2000 posts on the "What are you listening to?" thread. Probably around 2200 before the forum shut down. In many ways it was more a "community of friends" than an audio forum.

To say everyone over there was a Kool-Aid drinker is disingenuous. Of course they existed, but most of the good guys avoided those types of threads. I personally received some of the best advise on positioning and calibrating subwoofers I've seen anywhere. Bossobass could have written a book on the subject. My music collection is much better today because of the music recommendations I got there. Hell, I shed tears when someone posted about their dog passing away. It was a great place to hang out.

In some ways I was a late-comer to the forum's community, and my participation was always somewhat casual. It is worth remembering that there was a large and generally positive community living there that was essentially separate from the company and its products. There were plenty of regulars in that portion of the community who played little or no role in discussions of the products themselves. The diehard fans who created such an unhealthy environment were simply a very vocal minority. In a way, the community members may be counted as victims of AV123's mis-steps right alongside the customers with defective products, the customers with delayed warranty repairs, the customers with undelivered products, and the community members who gave money to raffles.

That said, I didn't go back when the forum reopened and the truth about the raffles came out. I have no plans of ever going back. MSL did a terrible thing and should be punished. What an awful thing to do. What makes it worse is the fact it was going on the entire time I was active on the forum.

I went back for a while. Right about the time I gave up on the forum and found myself asking why I was even bothering to go there, they banned me permanently. Simplified my decision-making process.

 

[GirgleMirt]

New sub: Twice the breaking power? I got nothin...

The old AV123 forum was much more than just fanboys nuthugging MLS and defending his products when they weren't up to snuff. There were great threads on music, cigars, beer, food, just about anything in between. I personally had over 2000 posts on the "What are you listening to?" thread. Probably around 2200 before the forum shut down. In many ways it was more a "community of friends" than an audio forum.

To say everyone over there was a Kool-Aid drinker is disingenuous. Of course they existed, but most of the good guys avoided those types of threads. I personally received some of the best advise on positioning and calibrating subwoofers I've seen anywhere. Bossobass could have written a book on the subject. My music collection is much better today because of the music recommendations I got there. Hell, I shed tears when someone posted about their dog passing away. It was a great place to hang out.

The problem was, is again in many ways, that the "Kool-Aid Drinkers" as you mentioned were the ones drawing attention. I guess you could have had ten regular guys for every KADs, but if the only voices you ever heard were the KADs, then they were the ones representative of the group...

Also, you have to realize that the forums were before anything else their main marketing tool. I know that I seldom checked it out, but when I did, it always seemed like there was some amazing event/sales going on. It was non-stop. From product releases, sales, raffles, announcements, there was always something to get people high. The hype was simply unbelievable. There was probably some reasonable people there, but even if they just said something "This is interesting, I might have to check it out", amongst the unending praise and unrelenting continual amazement about even the most mundane thing, then they were also just helping build the hype. And the company was well willing to oblige and took advantage of this on a multitude of levels. (Stealing from raffles, free advertisement, high MSRPs and multitude of sales, always new and ever improved models, etc.)

Anyhow, most brands have their fans, but few seem to equal these. And I say seem because it still seems to be this way, albeit at a lesser level, the new computer models shots seemed to get a lot of praise and get people excited, people are posting pics of their subs or whatever, people still describe latest sales as "cannot pass up" events... Surely, many of those who have been burned aren't about to go back, but there seems to be people willing to take their place.

 

[Chu Gai]

With the holidays upon us

and people like Bob Dylan releasing a Christmas album, I thought it would be nice to share an update to an old classic that many of have heard or sung.

On the twelfth day of Christmas,
Mark Schifter sent to me

12 beta testers out six thousand
11 Kool Aid packets
10 unanswered phone calls
9 e-mail excuses
8 subs a humming
7 bouncing checks
6 I'm sick stories
5 missing gaskets
4 stripped screws
3 subs a flapping
2 veneers a cracking
And a bunch of underfunded raffles

 

[haraldo]

I went back for a while. Right about the time I gave up on the forum and found myself asking why I was even bothering to go there, they banned me permanently. Simplified my decision-making process.

Shocking !!!

 

[droht]

New sub: Twice the breaking power? I got nothin...


The problem was, is again in many ways, that the "Kool-Aid Drinkers" as you mentioned were the ones drawing attention. I guess you could have had ten regular guys for every KADs, but if the only voices you ever heard were the KADs, then they were the ones representative of the group...

Also, you have to realize that the forums were before anything else their main marketing tool. I know that I seldom checked it out, but when I did, it always seemed like there was some amazing event/sales going on. It was non-stop. From product releases, sales, raffles, announcements, there was always something to get people high. The hype was simply unbelievable. There was probably some reasonable people there, but even if they just said something "This is interesting, I might have to check it out", amongst the unending praise and unrelenting continual amazement about even the most mundane thing, then they were also just helping build the hype. And the company was well willing to oblige and took advantage of this on a multitude of levels. (Stealing from raffles, free advertisement, high MSRPs and multitude of sales, always new and ever improved models, etc.)

Anyhow, most brands have their fans, but few seem to equal these. And I say seem because it still seems to be this way, albeit at a lesser level, the new computer models shots seemed to get a lot of praise and get people excited, people are posting pics of their subs or whatever, people still describe latest sales as "cannot pass up" events... Surely, many of those who have been burned aren't about to go back, but there seems to be people willing to take their place.

This post, and other by slush and gonk, are right on imo. mls could not have structured the forum any better than it was when I found it about 3 years ago. Something new "to get you high" as GirgleMirt described + the "good"' part of the forum, which slush describes. The good part really helped to lend credibility to the hype part. No one was trying to do that, but it certainly had that effect.

At the end of the day I give mls tons of credit from a marketing perspective for doing what he did. If only he had the manufacturing side to back things up. I still give him credit, strictly from a business standpoint, for seemingly making a go of it. He has recylced his customer base to a large extent, having extracted max dollars from "old"' crew and watching them walk away mostly in disgust, while retaining only the most fervent and loyal of his supporters. Those folks, along with crazy sales, are helping to build a new customer base. It may or may not succeed, but I am impressed that it has gotten to where it is today.

 

[Chu Gai]

Schifter is having some success because he's able to control the flow of information, stifle dissent, and ban undesirables on his website while touting the next 3 year plan of future growth and properity. Straight out of the pages of Venezuela, North Korea, China, & Iran.

Presently, Shifty is relying upon having people call him rather than enter into an online answer. This creates the illusion of a benevolent owner willing to take the time to help a poor customer with a problem. It would be far more honest and helpful to the community at large to create a sticky thread that would tell them how to check if their MFW-15 has all its screws and what to do if they found a stripped screw. But that would be a tacit admission that the problem is not a rare occurence and instead indicates an absence of engineering skills and quality control. Divide and conquer.

What information he does provide, and I use the term very loosely, is not questioned for authenticity. He has spoken about a 3-step quality control program for the subs, but does anybody know what it is? He has spoken about how for quality control purposes Longmont does not utilize the predrilled holes for the MFW driver that Uniaudio sends and instead drills their own. Does that make sense? He has spoken about how the staff at Longmont needs to check their torque settings when driving in screws so as not to strip them, but wouldn't that depend upon the precision of who drills the pilot hole? He has spoken about how Uniaudio has finally figured out how to glue down veneers correctly, yet still we see scores of delamination problems that have occurred in A-Stock product while under warranty that have not been reconciled.

On 7/24/09 He wrote,

I was asked earlier in the week by a good customer about the CE and FCC “Marks” on our products, and do we “Self Certify”… The emphatic answer is NO – we do not subscribe to self certification process here. The CE Mark is a very serious matter to us – as is the FCC one – and BTW… these have serious costs (over $5000 dollars in procedural tests) associated with them. Our products so labeled have passed each certification.

Now, given that I've spoken with people intimately related with AV123, who have stated that products bearing these markings were never, and I repeat, NEVER tested for any compliance. Rather, emails indicate that the vendor of the amps was instructed to screen these markings onto the amps just as they were instructed to screen lettering to indicate labeling of inputs.

That there are old timers who still remain there preening and rationalizing despite the countless stories of incompetence, mismanagement, and outright filching via the countless raffles, speaks poorly of their judgement, IMO. This is a man and company that has become a virtual pariah within the industry he attempts to serve.

 

[stevo238]

By the time I got interested in AV123's proposed products, the cracks in the company's veneer were starting to show. MLS' response to one of my brief posts in July 2008 told me I had touched a nerve and I knew there was gold to mine. He wasn't who he portrayed himself as.

That time, place and mood that was AV123 and ably described by Gonk and Slushpuppy is gone, replaced by newcomers which was always a part of the business model anyway. The consolation of those good ole' days is whats transpired in the past year, and that MLS was found out. I don't know why Audio Alchemy failed but I'd venture a guess it may have been under similar circumstances. I don't think they had a forum though. With AV123, the forum raised MLS up and then tore him down. Yea, there's still life there, but it's day to day. So much for the Audio press doing there job. Maybe that's too much to ask.






http://forums.av123.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=623894

 

[Chu Gai]

The one common thread in all these business failures - Audio Alchemy, Perpetual Technologies, Genesis - is Schifter. As Michael Corleone said to Moe Green, "You're unlucky."

FWIW, I can't read that reply link.