Speaker suggestions for SC-05

K

Kenneth M

Audiophyte
Heya fellas!

I just walked from BB with a SC-05 in hand and now am curious about what speakers I should get to start completing the package.

I have a set of Definitive towers that sat in non-climate controlled over a Texas summer and am already not wanting to use them. I have a feeling they're ruined and just want to figure they are and turn the page.

There is no set budget. I've read enough on this forum to realize that this is the most important decision of the home theater set-up process and am willing to invest the most on them. Obviously I don't desire anything outlandish, so let's cap it at 5 or $6,000 for the entire 7.1 experience.

Music quality is somwhat important in this package, but this system will be mainly used for watching movies. From HD Blu's, DVD to mono track VHS medium, I want everything to sound as good as possible.

Tower fronts are good, wall-mounted rears are preferred and the center and sub are open for any suggestions.

Help me get the best out of my system pleeeeeze.

Much obliged for any help I can get from you gurus!

-Kenneth
 
P

popotoys

Audioholic
If I did mine over again, I would stay away from full blown towers in the front and spend the extra money on either subwoofers or treatment.

I have the SC-07 with Paridigm Sudio's v.2 and the system works great.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Nice receiver! :D

Selecting your speakers is, indeed, probably the most personal and difficult portion of a home theater. There are so many good choices!

But what a lot of people don't really think about is that the sound that you hear is a partnership between the speakers and the room. The room's acoustics and how you position the speakers and listening positions has just as much effect on the final sound quality as the speakers themselves.

We can throw out speaker suggestions until we're all blue in the face! With your good-sized budget, the choices are numerous to say the least! But your room's construction, its dimensions, the layout, acoustically treating it and the positioning of all your furniture and equipment; these things are often much more limited and they will inform us and you as to what you really need and want in terms of speakers.

So let's start with your room!

Please tell us the dimensions. Also note whether it is fully enclosed, or if there are permanent openings to other rooms of the house.

Pictures and diagrams are a great help ;)

What is your intended layout? Where will the seats go? Where will the speakers go? Where are the windows and doors?

Is your room carpeted? Do you have heavy drapes? Do you have bookcases, potted plants, tables, chairs, etc?

Are you willing to hang dedicated acoustic treatments to improve your room's acoustics? How about treatments that actually look like posters, pictures or art?

Once we know all about your room and what you are willing to change in that room in order to make it the best acoustic environment possible, we can look at what part of the budget should go towards improving your room and what should go towards speakers. We can figure out if you might "get away" with a single subwoofer or if you really need 2 (or more) subwoofers to either create louder bass or more evenly distributed bass. We can determine what sort of output capabilities your speakers need to have and whether you would be better off with wide dispersion or more controlled dispersion. We can figure out if you would benefit from more high frequency output or less high frequency output. And all of those things are also partially decided by your own, personal taste.

You have a good-sized budget. Large enough that you can likely purchase some acoustic room treatments within that budget and still get 5 great speakers and 1 or 2 subwoofers. But we need to narrow down the vast number of choices. And knowing all about your room will allow us to do that and to also recommend what will actually work best in your specific room :)
 
K

Kenneth M

Audiophyte
Popotoys: Thank you for the info!

FirstReflection:

All I can say is WOW.

You have given me some seriously great information to start this journey.

The situation for me is this: My wife and I rent a small apartment right now. Everything I own is in storage. Everything I am buying for this hobby is in storage. I just picked up a 60" Pioneer Elite plasma and you can guess where that is going....

We are going to be buying a house most likely within a year, and that is when the ball will drop on the installation.

The only thing I know at this stage is that: This will go in the main living quarters where many openings will be present. Kitchen, hallway, entry way...all of these things will most likely be connected to this room.

Other than that, I cannot tell you anything else.

Instead of guessing and getting probables, let me come back to this thread when I do have a house. Then we can get down to the nitty gritty.

fyi: the main reason we are piecing this together now is when there are house payments, along with the duties of owning one, come about, we will already have this and won't be heavily burdened financially anytime in the future.


:) Thank you so much for your reply. :)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You're most welcome, Kenneth! :)

Your situation is fairly common. Many people buy a sound system and then move, or they simply want to buy speakers that will work really well in most any room.

There are two ways that I look at it:

1) You can buy neutral speakers that are accurate and that will sound good in the widest variety of room. This is a very "safe bet". And if the sound is not to your liking, you can be pretty darn sure that the speakers are not "to blame" and that the cause of your "bad" sound is the acoustic environment or the positioning.

2) You can take the acoustics and the positioning "as is" and buy speakers that will specifically compensate for the room and setup's short-comings.

In the end, no speaker can really "make up" for a bad acoustic environment or bad positioning. But it is often the case that people have to put their speakers in less than ideal positions or they are unable to alter the layout of the room or to add acoustic treatments to improve the acoustics. More and more speaker manufacturers realize these constraints and they are making speakers that, in a strict sense, are not really neutral or accurate, but they are specifically designed to compensate for common "bad" placements - like being right up against a wall, or being stuffed in a corner :p

Personally, I believe that where there is a will, there is a way :) There is a whole lot more choice in the way of acoustic treatments these days. And that means it is possible to acoustically treat and therefore improve the acoustics of far more rooms. Acoustic treatments no longer have to look like big ugly panels or weird "egg crate" foam. You can get acoustic panels that literally look like posters or works of art. You can get bass traps that literally look like end tables or plant holders or picture/art stands. And you can get diffusion and absorption panels that come in really cool and funky colors and designs so that they become decoration rather than an eye-sore.

Speakers too can come in many attractive styles these days. You'll still find the lowest priced speakers that focus only on great sound are mostly plain, black boxes (because that helps to keep the price as low as possible). But there are certainly some very attractive speakers out there. This can go a long way in helping you to better position the speakers. Because if you do not mind the way they look, they can become part of the decoration of the room, so you won't be so tempted to try and "hide them away" in a corner or way up high or way off to the side or something.

And there are also many, many very good in-wall solutions as well. For people who really just cannot stand having speakers of any kind visible in the room, in-wall speakers can offer a truly "invisible" speaker solution.

So...if you like, we can go ahead and recommend some of those "safe bet" speakers that are very neutral and accurate and will sound good in almost any room. If nothing else, those recommendations can give you a list of speakers that you can try and audition so that you can hear them for yourself. Speakers are such a personal purchase. What you like the most might not be the same as what I like the most. My preference is to try and get as close to the same sound that is heard in a professional mixing studio so that I am hearing something very close to what the people who made the recording heard as they were producing the soundtrack. But not all studios are the same, so even with that goal, it is only a close approximation. Some people just plain like more bass or just plain like more treble and there is nothing wrong with that...it's just personal preference.

So, in your price range:

definitely try to find an RBH dealer in your area and audition some Signature and Signature Reference RBH speakers.

I would also highly recommend Paradigm's Studio and Signature lines of speakers as well as their Millenia line (which is VERY sleek and stylish).

If you can find someone in your area who has some Salk speakers, those are definitely worth a listen.

And I would certainly recommend finding people in your area with speakers from the best-known internet direct brands, such as: Axiom, Ascend, SVSound, Aperion and Emotiva.

Almost all of the internet brands have really active owner communities with owners all over the country who are willing to have people over to listen to their speakers - it's quite a lot of fun and you meet some great people!

To get ahead on your acoustic treatment considerations, definitely head on over to the Auralex and GIK Acoustics websites. Ready Acoustics and RealTraps also offer a lot of great information and ideas. You'll start to really see what's available and start to get a really good idea of what acoustic treatments are all about.

In the type of open concept room that you described, getting great bass is going to be a concern. To get great bass, you have to be able to pressurize the entire open space. Bass in non-directional and you cannot "aim" it just at your listening area. There are a lot of great and extremely capable subwoofers these days. And using multiple subwoofers is the easiest and best way to not just fill a large, open space with great bass, but to also make sure that the bass is even and uniform throughout the entire space.

Internet-direct subwoofer companies definitely offer the highest value. But most of them come in the form of large, plain, black boxes :p Still, it never hurts to start looking into them!

SVSound and Epik are two of my top favorites when it comes to awesome output levels at very reasonable prices. Elemental designs and HSU Research are the other big names in internet-direct subwoofers.

But there ARE other subwoofer choices out there - even in-wall subs!

So I've just given you a TON to think about and to research, but I think it's a good start and you can have a lot of fun!

By the way - AWESOME choice on the Pioneer Elite plasma! I have a 60" Pioneer Kuro KRP Monitor myself (virtually identical to the Signature Elite Monitors). Plain and simple, there is no better flat panel display out there! So a great display and a great receiver deserve nothing less than great speakers and a great acoustic environment, yes? :D

Have fun!
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I have a set of Definitive towers that sat in non-climate controlled over a Texas summer and am already not wanting to use them. I have a feeling they're ruined and just want to figure they are and turn the page.
Popotoys:
The situation for me is this: My wife and I rent a small apartment right now. Everything I own is in storage. Everything I am buying for this hobby is in storage. I just picked up a 60" Pioneer Elite plasma and you can guess where that is going....
I have no scientific data, but I have read of more cases where electronics are ruined in cold storage, rather than in hot storage. If you don't like your old speakers, that's one thing, but I wouldn't just presume that they're ruined?

If your storage gets cold, and it will be winter when you take the stuff out, give your electronics days in room temperature (or even a week) before turning them on. The condensation of the inner electronics (without waiting) seems to have destroyed more components than hot storage has.
 
K

Kenneth M

Audiophyte
jostenmeat - You do have a valid point and I do not discredit the possibility that they are okay... but for how long? I have some issues with the fact that they will be prone to tearing after some heavy use due to being in 130 degree temperature for around 3 months. When I put this together, I do not want to have to redo anything for a very very long time. I want it to be completed. The only example of what heat can do to a speaker, that I've lived through, is a pair of JL W8's facing the rear window on a Carrera I used to own. With only one strip of limo tint on the rear window, the speakers collapsed within two months. Adding another strip of limo tint helped the next pair last over a year and a half. The system was kept the same and used in the same manner, playing the same music. While sunlight did obviously play a large part in this example, and I am not discrediting it, I do believe heat also played a part.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. :)


FirstReflection: I read your post last night and slept on what you wrote. I have been thinking about your thoughts for the last 24 hours (minus sleep) and have figured out what I want to do.

My wife and I are going to be having kids sometime soon. Kids, running around the living room and toppling over a 5 year old speaker when they are chasing the family dog scares the ____ out of me. Especially when I will have to find a replacement for a speaker that is no longer in production.

The idea of "in-wall speakers" is phenomenal. I have never even thought about the idea until you mentioned it. But it would work beautifully. Not only would it prevent cone-stabbing toddlers from playing "GI-Joe vs. the Black Hole" with them, it would free up a lot of space. Allow me to explain. We are new to the house buying world. After looking at nice houses around 2,400 sq ft, we did all of our research and realized we would have taxes for roughly $500.00 a month for the rest of our lives. For a house we already owned. This sickens me and we would probably have to find a smaller house to pay taxes around $250.00 a month, just to be more comfortable when we retire. So, we've ultimately decided to find an older house around 1,700 to 1,800 sq feet that will make life much more managable in the long run. (This is for a 4 bedroom 2 bath) So, ultimately, the living room space is probably going to be kind of small. Not tiny, but to free up some floor space by not having towers, and not having shelf-type rear speakers protruding from the wall, would definitely free up the amount of space it would appear to have. So, that's another reason I love the idea.

There is no doubt in my mind that in-wall speakers have some serious disadvantages and you can tell me if you feel like I am erroneous. (1) Not as much airspace. (2) Speaker placement extremely limited.

Those are the two main disadvantages that I can think of. While these are not good things, I would be willing to sacrifice some sound quality for them being in such an advantageous location. They just seem very ideal to me, now that you have mentioned that they exist....

Which brings me to: What are some recommendations for in-wall speakers?

-----------------------------------------------------------

On to the other things that I can make the room sound better acoustically...

I have talked with my dad, who will be helping with a down payment, and asked him if I could use some of the down payment money to:

1) Tear out all of the old 1/2" sheet rock.
2) Take out all of the insulation and replace it with new insulation.
3) Put on 5/8" sheet rock & re-spackle.

This would be everything in the main living room, kitchen, hallways... basically everything that isn't a seperate room from the main living area. He told me that he was "up to anything." So, now that I know it is possible, I have to ask... Do you think that it would improve the acoustics of the room to a good degree?

Is there any other suggestions since I will possibly already have that specific part of the house torn apart...

-------------------------------------------------------

These are the two things I have really centered my thoughts on in your post. I will definitely work onto the other things you have mentioned as well, and appreciate the amount of time you have taken to help me. I feel enthusiastic and informed. Thank you so much.

Congrats on the 60" plasma! These are the best plasmas, and will be the best for a looooong time. I hate to see Pioneer leaving the business, but when you build products so good, that you can't make money on them, I guess at some point you are forced to...

I just knocked another no-brainer off the list with the Oppo Blu-Ray today. All I need to do is order the region-free hardware hack from the UK and it'll be ready to rock when everything goes together. :cool:

Thanks again! :)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
If you go with in-wall speakers, I personally do not think there is much better than RBH. Their Signature or Signature Reference in-wall speakers are extremely good, and most importantly, they are designed as complete, fully boxed speakers that just happen to go inside the wall. In other words, they are not just loose drivers, like so many other in-wall speakers. They are a complete, enclosed box, but you just stick the box inside the wall, in between your studs is all :) They are designed for 16" on center studs.

If you are thinking of renovating your new house when you get it, considering sound-proofing is WELL worth your while. People do not realize just how important a quite home can be and how much stress it can releave.

Sound is a lot like water: it will find ANY hole or gap and "bleed" into other rooms. There are three, super-important things when it comes to sound-proofing:

1) Seal the room tight. Use acoustic caulk along ALL edges of the room, around any outlets, and put it in the seems of the drywall when you hang the drywall. Acoustic caulk is just caulk that never dries out and always remains viscous. If you are using vapor barrier, use acoustic caulk to seal the vapor barrier at the floor, ceiling and room edges/corners. But ALSO use acoustic caulk to seal around the edges of the drywall.

Where ever you have an electrical outlet, make sure that you do not also have an electrical outlet that goes to the room on the other side of the wall within the same 16" "channel" between studs. Remember, you want to prevent any holes or gaps. Think of it like trying to make the room "air tight" and you'll have the right idea ;)

2) Mass is your friend. The more massive the material, the more energy it takes to get it to move. 5/8th inch drywall is better than 1/2" drywall - but it isn't a huge improvement.

3) Much more effective than mass is decoupling! Sound is just kinetic energy. Molecules "bump" into each other and pass the energy along. The vibration of the speaker cone (or your vocal cords, or the string of an instrument, etc.) makes the molecules in the air vibrate. The vibrating molecules in the air pass the energy along and eventually make the walls vibrate. The walls transmit the sound very well because the molecules are so close together compared to the molecules in the air. We can try to stop the solid walls from vibrating by making them extremely massive. But even if they are very dense and massive, if they vibrate AT ALL, they will transmit that sound very effectively.

Decoupling is the idea of putting a "shock absorber" in between two surfaces. Instead of just trying to deaden the sound energy with mass, a decoupling device will turn the kinetic sound energy into heat. In order to do that, a decoupling device has to be "squishy". The acoustic caulk that I mentioned is a decoupling device :)

So much more effective that putting up more massive drywall, is putting up regular drywall with a decoupling device in between the drywall back and the stud. In the old days, the decoupling device was a resiliant channel - which is just a piece of metal that kind of looks like an S curve. Though resiliant channels do work, they are a ***** to work with and it is extremely easy to "short circuit" a resiliant channel and render it useless!

These days, we use visco-elastic polymers. Sticky, squishy semi-liquids that never dry out and behave a lot like that acoustic caulk. There are two primary sources:

QuietSolutions QuietGlue and

Green Glue

The most effective way to use either Glue product is to hang a layer of drywall as usual and then apply a layer of Glue and then put a second layer of drywall over the Glue to make a "sandwich". But you can also just put Glue on the studs and hang a single layer of drywall and achieve a fairly large improvement in soundproofing.

QuietSolutions also offer many dedicated soundproofing construction materials. They have QuietRock, which is soundproof drywall. It is more effective at blocking sound than 8 layers of regular drywall! But it also costs about 10x as much per 4' x 8' panel. The Glue solution is MUCH cheaper and still very effective.

Check out QuietSolutions and Green Glue. I think you will start to form many ideas!

Personally, I would try to use one of the Glue products everywhere in the house just buy putting the Glue on the stud and hanging regular drywall with acoutic insulation in between the studs. But for the actual room in which the surround sound system will go, consider doing the full "sandwich" with two layers of drywall and a Glue layer in the middle. Not only will that stop sound from escaping the theater room, but it will also stop sound from getting into the theater room, which will allow you to play your system at a lower volume level - and you can see how that will help things even more!

I LOVE talking about soundproofing. I think it is so drastically overlooked. And it can improve your quality of life SO much. But it really does require a full renovation to achieve, so most people just never get around to it and cannot afford it. Still, many people can afford to just leave what is already there, put up a layer of Glue and a second layer of drywall over the existing construction. Just doing that in your theater room can make a tremendous difference!

So definitely check out QuietSolutions and Green Glue. There is a TON to learn there. Auralex also has a terrific guide called, Acoustics 101. They really go into detail on the older methods of building massive walls and using resiliant channels.

I'm sure you will have a lot of questions, but that should get you started :)

Just remember - think "air tight" and think "use something squishy that will turn kinetic energy into heat"! Those, along with just plain mass are the keys to soundproofing and if you are going to rip down all the old drywall and put up insulation and new drywall anyway, you might as well really do it right, yes?

Enjoy!
 

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