CA Energy Commission Seeks to Regulate Television Use

R

redman_43

Junior Audioholic
I'm confused. CA wants to decrease energy consumption of large TVs by limiting what products are for sale in retails stores, directly causing the loss of jobs and hurting their already suffering economy? That is retarded. It makes no sense at all.

Why not force the manufacturers to produce more effecient TVs? Problem solved for CA and....hey guess what, those more effecient products would also now be available for the other 49 states, helping to reduce their energy usage. What an idea.

I'm glad my mom moved me out of CA when I was a kid. Unfortunately, most of my family still lives down there.

With regards to solar panels, the initial investment isn't small, but ongoing costs are relatively low. There are government subsidies and tax breaks (I think) that will help with it. It's almost a no brainer in most of the southern half of the country.
 
cwall99

cwall99

Full Audioholic
Sort of like CAFE standards for televisions. The Big 3 in Detroit fight CAFE standards every time there's legislation on the table to raise those standards. There's a great line from a speech I heard someone give: every time Congress sets out to raise the CAFE standards, the Big 3 hires an army of lawyers and lobbyists while the Japanese manufacturers hire an army of engineers to make it happen.

Still, I like the idea. There's already a system out there for assessing energy consumption: Energy Star. I've seen Energy Star 3.0, so that tells me that Energy Star has been updated at least twice since it came out. Maybe that's the way to go:

Create an evolving series of Energy Star ratings, and, over time, as the Energy Star develops into a stricter or more energy efficient standards, require all new products to be sold to be compliant with the latest and greatest Energy Star ratings.

Apply this to all electrical devices from power tools to televisions to toasters to microwaves. That way everyone is affected. All manufacturers can see the future and can plan for it (and clever manufacturers might look several generations into the future and get a competitive edge).

Targeting televisions alone won't amount to a hill of beans in the reduction of energy consumption. You'll have people traveling to Nevada and Oregon to buy new televisions there, so it has to be a national policy. It's just like the way we in Michigan go to Indiana to buy fireworks.
 
MapleSyrup

MapleSyrup

Audioholic
jaime

You said:

Why not build a few power plants? Sure we should but the reason will be different than needing power it will be some billionare who already has a ton o cash to make more money.
That makes as much sense as the following being "good news" for California.

The plant, in Fremont, Calif., employs 4,700 people and is the country’s only remaining auto plant west of San Antonio. It opened in 1984 as a way for Toyota to experiment with building cars in North America and for G.M. to learn more efficient production techniques from Japan.
LINK

That plant's closing. Where's the plant going to be moved to?

Toyota Motor Manufacturing of Texas announced Thursday night that Toyota is relocating its Tacoma mid sized pickup truck production form Fremont California to San Antonio, and is expected to make a $100 million investment in the plant on the city's south side, 1200 WOAI news reports.
It will mean 1,000 new Toyota jobs.
LINK

Since a plant's closing "some billionaire" stands to make less money, and that's good news?:confused:

The state with far more regulations losses jobs and the state with far fewer regulations gains 1/4th of those jobs lost. Coincidence? The state with far more restrictions is in massive debt and massive unemployment while the state with far few regulations is free of debt and has far less unemployment.

Following the logic of Michael Moore is what California's been doing the past several decades. Why in the world would you want more of the same from California?

Regarding the "rich getting richer": Could you please show me where anyone's employed by a poor person or poor organization? Anywhere? One key to becoming rich is to retain a healthy middle class. In countries such as Russia, China, Cuba, Venezuela, England, France, etc. where government regiments society and the economy far more than in the US, the gap between rich and poor is far greater (that means a small to non-existing middle class). Poverty is also far greater.

I've got my own ideas about legalizing weed; but that'll get this thread really off topic.
 
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MapleSyrup

MapleSyrup

Audioholic
cwall

You said:

Sort of like CAFE standards for televisions. The Big 3 in Detroit fight CAFE standards every time there's legislation on the table to raise those standards. There's a great line from a speech I heard someone give: every time Congress sets out to raise the CAFE standards, the Big 3 hires an army of lawyers and lobbyists while the Japanese manufacturers hire an army of engineers to make it happen.
Read this:

The major automakers have filed suit to challenge California's aggressive new carbon dioxide emission rules for new automobiles. Joining the suit are BMW, Daimler Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Porsche, Toyota, and Volkswagen -- all nine automakers represented by the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers. Nissan and Honda reportedly oppose the regulations as well, but have not yet elected to join the suit, accordin to thisNYT' report. The Sierra Club's response is here.
LINK

Dude, Google is you friend.

Also, why do you think they oppose increasing CAFE standards?
 
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J

jamie2112

Banned
Sorry I was being way to general about the whole thing.It is really politics so I have to bow out now.
 
MapleSyrup

MapleSyrup

Audioholic
redman

Why not force the manufacturers to produce more effecient TVs? Problem solved for CA and....hey guess what, those more effecient products would also now be available for the other 49 states, helping to reduce their energy usage.
What's the difference? By forcing manufacturers to produce televisions that use less energy (already being done without gov't regulation) you'll simply force the market to offer less and/or more expensive products to the consumer.

And is there a television manufacturer left in the US? I don't know of any (and not at all saying they don't exist). So if the manufacturer produces a television to meet California's regulations, how would that benefit California? Those same televisions would be shipped equally to the remaining 49 states. It's not like those televisions has to be sold to everyone else through California.
 
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X

Xargos

Junior Audioholic
What of the spin that we can't produce the energy we need?
Without high initial outlay or continued investment in dirty energy such as oil and coal (yes, coal is dirty!), producing the energy isn't that simple. That's a sad but true fact.


You could not be more wrong. Oil production's become much more efficient, cars have become more efficient (w/o regulations, simply because people like the idea of economical cars), and the BASH amplifier wasn't a product of regulation; but from what the market offered.
More efficient cars have been made because of both regulations and the fact that high oil prices pushed consumers in that direction. When oil was cheap, there was no demand for something more efficient regardless of the fact that it is better for the environment.

Things like the BASH amplifier are products of the desire to reduce manufacturing costs. Since fewer components are needed, they are produced. Without the cost cutting reasoning, I seriously doubt that they would even exist.

The pure free market doesn't work. The removal of regulations is one of the big reasons why the world just saw that huge economic downturn.

Regulations could actually create jobs if companies choose to do the research and development necessary to meet them.
 
MapleSyrup

MapleSyrup

Audioholic
Xargos

Coal and oil are dirty energy but efficient. Over time manufacturers have found better ways to harvest coal and oil cleaner and leaving a far less footprint on the earth. That has been accomplished simply because that's what people like and thus the market moves naturally towards efficiency and cleanliness.

Wind and solar power is great; but reality is that the technology needed to use those forms of energy is vastly behind the technology needed to get energy from coal and oil.

We've heard time and time again that it'll "take ten years" to produce enough oil from reserve X so let's invest in clean energy instead. Well, (a) if they began producing oil from site X ten years ago, they'd be at full capacity by now; (b) remove the caps on oil wells in California and start pumping that oil out would take about 30 minutes.

More efficient cars have been made because of both regulations and the fact that high oil prices pushed consumers in that direction.
My main point is that when manufacturers achieved higher efficiency witout sacrificing performance (such as Ford placing a big engine in a smaller body, overhead camshafts, multi valves, etc.) people flood the market to buy such a product.

But what you said is very true, and it's when the market is used to achieve efficiency that costs are held down the most. There's economical cars on the market now, if you want one, you'll get one. It's that simple. By forcing manufacturers to produce only efficient cars you increase costs by forcing the company to retool and create massive uncertainty which results in less consumption and production. Why would a manufacturer retool for a model when the standards could very well change yet again? Why would people buy a product when in the near future they'll be told they can no longer by that product and be forced to buy a different one? Let the market sort things out.

We'll keep an eye on GM. The US government is clearly the new owner and clearly dictating what can be manufactured. My very simple prediction is that business model, which is exactly the end result of arguing for government regulations, will crash and burn. Toyota sales will continue to raise while GM falls. It's that simple.

Things like the BASH amplifier are products of the desire to reduce manufacturing costs.
BINGO!!! The market took care of it. And the BASH amplfier would NOT sell if the consumer determined it sucked. So a combination of manufacture self-interest AND consumer wants created the much more efficient BASH amplifier. Governemnt regulation need not apply.

The pure free market doesn't work. The removal of regulations is one of the big reasons why the world just saw that huge economic downturn.
I don't advocate laissez-faire marketing. Regulation is needed. I only strongly caution as to how far that regulation should go. The exact opposite of laissez-faire is total control of the market. That has not worket anywhere. Countries that have heavily regulated economies have far less production, less consumption, and much more waste.

Regulations could actually create jobs if companies choose to do the research and development necessary to meet them.
Investing in companies, allowing people to keep more of their earned money, and allowing people to be free to develope will do far more to create jobs than any regulation.

If California reduced taxes and regulation I could guarantee a boom in industrial growth in that state.
 
X

Xargos

Junior Audioholic
We'll keep an eye on GM. The US government is clearly the new owner and clearly dictating what can be manufactured. My very simple prediction is that business model, which is exactly the end result of arguing for government regulations, will crash and burn. Toyota sales will continue to raise while GM falls. It's that simple.
Since the US Government took over, I've seen signs of perfectly valid improvements at GM when it comes to improving efficiency. They have actually started retooling for more efficient vehicles and are actually planning on bringing the Chevrolet Spark to the states. Before the buyout their idea of a decent efficient car was the less than reliable Aveo which is nothing more than a Daewoo. That means that there is finally a US car company making something worthy of competing with the Honda Fit and Toyota Yaris.
 
MapleSyrup

MapleSyrup

Audioholic
Xargos

Producing efficient cars is all well and good but what about sales? It's a matter of how many people would buy cars such as the Spark, no?

I'll still bet that Toyota sales smash GM sales domestically (never done before) in the years to come.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
That means that there is finally a US car company making something worthy of competing with the Honda Fit and Toyota Yaris.
I'll SMOKE a Honda Fit in my Mustang, and look WAY cooler doing it. :D
 
MapleSyrup

MapleSyrup

Audioholic
django1

I see energy consumption in the same category of regulation and have no problem with it...
Even if you can no longer buy a Mustang? You know, because the government said so?

Why not allow companies produce more energy instead of forcing the people to use less. Any country out there that has benefited by forcing its people to use less? Any country out there that has benefited by restricting itself from using its own resources? This isn't the road that made the Mustang a success.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Example of government solution making a problem worse. No shocker here.
If you want to read how not to run a city, read www.jsonline.com. Every day, some BS or other is made public. We have a state run child day care program that pays people when they open centers for low-income kids. Well, that's the theory, anyway. There's one just NW of the city that's in a $1.25M house and the woman pulls in over $400K/year. Even after this was revealed, the program sent a check to her last week for over $25K. This is a $400M annual program.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Even if you can no longer buy a Mustang? You know, because the government said so?

Why not allow companies produce more energy instead of forcing the people to use less. Any country out there that has benefited by forcing its people to use less? Any country out there that has benefited by restricting itself from using its own resources? This isn't the road that made the Mustang a success.
If people use less, the companies will lose money, which means they'll either have to find more customers, charge more or be subsidized. We all know that they won't cut their costs when they can just as easily get more money from someone instead.
 
MapleSyrup

MapleSyrup

Audioholic
highfigh

#38;

I agree with holding gov't accountable. That's been utterly lacking for decades and it's excellerated into warp speed as of late. Businesses can cut costs only so much. Businesses survive by making a profit. Their existence is what creates wealth for society.

#36;

And where can I sign up for a $400 million job? :p
 
basspig

basspig

Full Audioholic
I have come to realize that environmentalism is not about saving the environment--it's a religion, which intent is the destruction of all modern technology. It is the manifestation of a hatred of the best within mankind--the desire to see mankind huddled in caves, not in magnificent skyscrapers. It is the manifestation of the Unforgiveable Sin: hatred of the good for being the good.
Death to environmentalists!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
#38;

I agree with holding gov't accountable. That's been utterly lacking for decades and it's excellerated into warp speed as of late. Businesses can cut costs only so much. Businesses survive by making a profit. Their existence is what creates wealth for society.

#36;

And where can I sign up for a $400 million job? :p
You can't. Not in Wisconsin, anyway. Actually, it's a $400M program, not just a job.

This hellhole is doing more to resemble Chicago all the time and it's like the inmates are running the asylum. The Governor hired a general legal council who's not licensed in WI and said he didn't know when the e-mail trail proves otherwise, he's spending his azz off and raising or adding every kind of tax and fee possible and has now said he won't run again because he thinks two terms is all anyone should get, when he has spent his whole career trying to stay in politics. Now, he has a cushy private sector job lined up, no doubt with someone whose area was helped by him or with his influence. We have a state Representative who has been nailed for OWI twice in 6 months, influence peddling has reached a new high (a new low, really) and it's not going to get better until we clean house.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Why not legalize weed and make 2.1 billion in tax revenue for CA in a year? WHy why why why is the question that never gets answered.Why not build a few power plants? Sure we should but the reason will be different than needing power it will be some billionare who already has a ton o cash to make more money.The rich keep getting richer and the poor are being controlled more easily...its a vicious circle and nobody wins EVER......did anyone see Michael Moore on Real Time? He makes alot of sense to me.....
I'm not sure why they won't legalize weed, alcohal is worse than weed. For the record I don't smoke weed or drink, but I do think it's idiotic that alcohal is a legal substance while weed is not.
 

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