DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[cschang]

That's one I can't answer, as I've tried and failed to find reasonable cause for having faith in Mark's promises. Without such faith, the written word (forum posts, emails, PM's, etc.) doesn't get you very far.

I invite anyone to post proof, PM proof, or tell us how to get verification, that MLS is righting the wrongs.

 

[Chu Gai]

I just ran through the whole thread you linked to, gonk. The product was hypothesized to be sold through Underwood Wally - Wally Liederman. He's since cashed out and probably been that way for a year or so. It was a remarkable thread where people ohhhed and ahhhed over some CAD drawings, no one ever heard anything, and I rather doubt a functional prototype was ever built. As to what Arnie Nudell actually knows about designing a speaker from an engineering POV has never been explored to my knowledge.

 

[Chu Gai]

I invite anyone to post proof, PM proof, or tell us how to get verification, that MLS is righting the wrongs.

Well Curtis, he's righting the wrongs by having addressed the MFW amp situation. I know, I know, you're going to say that some don't quite fit in those openings and as a result it's easy to damage the veneer. But really. Wouldn't you rather have a wooden leg with a chip than no leg at all to stand on?

He also posted for a while on AVS telling people thanks, my best, I'm here from you, humbly and that brought the spirits up of some just like when William Wallace rode his horse to the front of the lines filled with dispirited Scotsmen in a pending battle with the English. I'm not sure how Dave Bott liked AVS being used as MLS's marketing arm, but hey, he jumped right in.

Instead of having the speakers assembled in either Colombia or Asia, where they just couldn't figure out how to wire the crossovers to the speakers, install the drivers so they wouldn't leak air, he's having a lot of stuff 'built out' here by bringing his wife in to do the work.

He's dealing with difficult issues like not travelling all around. He got rid of his Mac. He had garage sales, and sold stuff on craigs list, and remarkable clearouts of stuff either in his home or the warehouse of products that don't work but need a little TLC.

These cost cutting, quality control improving methods have allowed him the funds he needs to make payments to Fabrikant and Derek, reducing the commitment. All in the spirit of the last presidential race, when was heard those galvanizing words, "Yes, we can."

 

[Mac11700]

Well, I am not so sure. Have you acknowledged some of the verifiable wrong doings by MLS? Wouldn't those be characterized as objective? Allowing him to explain is different than asking him for proof. How many times can the dog eat your homework? Remember the old saying "actions speak louder than words". If you can show me a verifiable action that he has taken to right the wrongs of the raffles, then we are making headway.



Sorry...it was not specifically directed to you.

Yes...I have..and in a way to him that would make some blush some others cringe..and some cheer...My last actual spoken conversation with Mark wasn't a pleasant one..as I took it down below the gutter...hell..further down than that..I would say below cesspool level..I'm not proud of my cursing him..normally I try my best to remain civil..but..in that I didn't. I let the worst in me surface and come out..Many of the things I yelled at him,needed to be said..but the manner in which I spoke to him was totally unprofessional..Did I accomplish anything by speaking to him the way I did...maybe..maybe not. I would hope it did in some manner..because I've tried to be a good friend to him and give him the best advise I could give..which was/is..

Pay back every dime you owe on the charities immediately or as soon as possible...not later on.. Waiting will only make it worse..

Don't have anymore pre-pays or pre-orders...period...

Don't make any promises you can't or have no intentions of keeping..If you promise someone something..then move heaven and earth to do it..


Stevo..taking the high road is always the best way to do something..Muckraking..for the sake of muckraking accomplishes little and clouds the issues...This then allows the discussions to stop focusing on the issue and focuses on just plain BS..Putting the man down just for the sake of being able to do it..while being self gratifying ..isn't going to accomplish much..Then this in turns allows others to chime in and add their BS doing the same exact thing..Do you honestly believe it serves any higher purpose..? BTW...I never said all muckrakers are bad people..

The facts about all of this is out for all to see..It's how we handle ourselves that all those that aren't commenting..but only reading about it..base their opinions on.

Curtis..yes..my posting is allowing some objectivity to be present..and in no way am I trying to downplay what has happened with regards to Mark and the wrongs he has done..All I am trying to say is for some here to stop with the BS..and stick to the facts..Some here in their zeal have posted things that have no bearings on what has transpired..no matter how they try to justify their actions.I only have to look at my own actions of late with Mark to realize the truth in what I am saying..

Gonk and others over there have taken the high road..and while there may be no outward appearance of accomplishing anything..I know what is being said there is having a lot more impact than all of the BS that has been posted here and elsewhere..

He's dealing with difficult issues like not travelling all around. He got rid of his Mac. He had garage sales, and sold stuff on craigs list, and remarkable clearouts of stuff either in his home or the warehouse of products that don't work but need a little TLC.

No..he didn't do what your saying..I walked away from a non paying position as forum administrator..I wasn't "gotten rid of"...or..perhaps your going to try to put a different spin on it to paint it in a different light..?

Mac

 

[Chu Gai]

You misunderstood. He got rid of his Mac computer.

 

[cschang]

Yes...I have..and in a way to him that would make some blush some others cringe..and some cheer...My last actual spoken conversation with Mark wasn't a pleasant one..as I took it down below the gutter...hell..further down than that..I would say below cesspool level..I'm not proud of my cursing him..normally I try my best to remain civil..but..in that I didn't. I let the worst in me surface and come out..Many of the things I yelled at him,needed to be said..but the manner in which I spoke to him was totally unprofessional..Did I accomplish anything by speaking to him the way I did...maybe..maybe not. I would hope it did in some manner..because I've tried to be a good friend to him and give him the best advise I could give..which was/is..

Pay back every dime you owe on the charities immediately or as soon as possible...not later on.. Waiting will only make it worse..

Don't have anymore pre-pays or pre-orders...period...

Don't make any promises you can't or have no intentions of keeping..If you promise someone something..then move heaven and earth to do it..

I think everyone wants the same things, but how do you make it happen? Do you think it will happen?

 

[Chu Gai]

Another way to look at it Curtis, is what do sales and net profits have to be to pull this off? I spoke with a couple of people and they have serious reservations that the amount of customers stated to have bought product, ~17K, or MLS's sales projections during their heyday, said to be just south of 10 Million were gross exaggerations. More realistic max sales figures were maybe 3 Million tops. So, what do you think they're selling nowadays? My guess with the trickle of shipments that come in is that he's lucky to be doing a half million. He's got to pay commission, rent and utilities on the building, sundry other fees and pay Suzanne, himself, and maybe the wife works for free. Payroll taxes, sundry other fees and things add up. And AFAIK, he's still facing foreclosure on a 100K loan. MLS no longer has the favorable terms he once had back in the good old days. No one is extending him net 90days. For many products, like the HR drivers, he's got to pay up front. What does that leave for those affected?

 

[cschang]

Another way to look at it Curtis, is what do sales and net profits have to be to pull this off? I spoke with a couple of people and they have serious reservations that the amount of customers stated to have bought product, ~17K, or MLS's sales projections during their heyday, said to be just south of 10 Million were gross exaggerations. More realistic max sales figures were maybe 3 Million tops. So, what do you think they're selling nowadays? My guess with the trickle of shipments that come in is that he's lucky to be doing a half million. He's got to pay commission, rent and utilities on the building, sundry other fees and pay Suzanne, himself, and maybe the wife works for free. Payroll taxes, sundry other fees and things add up. And AFAIK, he's still facing foreclosure on a 100K loan. MLS no longer has the favorable terms he once had back in the good old days. No one is extending him net 90days. For many products, like the HR drivers, he's got to pay up front. What does that leave for those affected?

Chu, you are right....these questions must be taken into consideration.

I have also spoken to someone that told me "take any number that Mark gives you, the actual number is closer to 50% of what he told you".

IMO, his lifestyle has been fueled by monies obtained or kept by not providing products, not providing refunds, and not donating the proceeds of raffles to the intended parties. This isn't something that has happened in the last year, but something that looks to be the mode of operation for at least a few years. Remember....over $200K has been raised in raffles on the AV123 forum.

 

[cschang]

Allow me to suggest that MLS' defenders are not in this thread because most of his friends think his actions are indefensible...

And, if I may add, there are no facts that can be used in his defense. Maybe that is what you meant.

 

[Chu Gai]

Chu, you are right....these questions must be taken into consideration.

I have also spoken to someone that told me "take any number that Mark gives you, the actual number is closer to 50% of what he told you".

IMO, his lifestyle has been fueled by monies obtained or kept by not providing products, not providing refunds, and not donating the proceeds of raffles to the intended parties. This isn't something that has happened in the last year, but something that looks to be the mode of operation for at least a few years.

Well, he was living high and mighty. Weeks or months in China and Russia on the stupidest of reasons that no one questioned. Bills that came due on all sorts of things. The amp(s) fiasco(s), Cali was stupid but sort of hard to walk away from if someone's going to float you net 30's and net 60's.

I know I don't have all the numbers, the profit margins, and all that. But even if I crank them favorably (very large profit margins), I just don't see enough money to satisfy the obligations in a timely manner. Curtis, you & I both know how much someone is getting paid, how much is owed, and how they're a useful asset.

 

[cschang]

Well, not entirely. I would say that I don't think that MLS' friends know all the facts any more than we do. So they have no facts with which to defend him. I think only MLS' knows all the facts. This notwithstanding, I'm sure there are many facts that could be used in his defense because, frankly, some of the accusations here are a bit fanciful.

With the way that MLS likes to spin things, I would think that if there were any shred of actual factual evidence that put him in a good light, it would have been put out in the open for all to see.

 

[cschang]

I know I don't have all the numbers, the profit margins, and all that. But even if I crank them favorably (very large profit margins), I just don't see enough money to satisfy the obligations in a timely manner. Curtis, you & I both know how much someone is getting paid, how much is owed, and how they're a useful asset.

I agree, but I also wonder, when AV123 was doing its best, was there enough to satisfy the obligations?

 

[Mac11700]

Well, he was living high and mighty. Weeks or months in China and Russia on the stupidest of reasons that no one questioned. Bills that came due on all sorts of things. The amp(s) fiasco(s), Cali was stupid but sort of hard to walk away from if someone's going to float you net 30's and net 60's.

I know I don't have all the numbers, the profit margins, and all that. But even if I crank them favorably (very large profit margins), I just don't see enough money to satisfy the obligations in a timely manner. Curtis, you & I both know how much someone is getting paid, how much is owed, and how they're a useful asset.

Why are you posting crap like this..

Well, he was living high and mighty. Weeks or months in China and Russia on the stupidest of reasons that no one questioned.

What has this to do with anything about the charities or raffles..Do you have any right to question why the man was there...no..you don't...Do you know if he was there conducting other business..no..you don't...Why is it he has to check in with folks like you to do these things..?

The amp(s) fiasco(s), Cali was stupid but sort of hard to walk away from if someone's going to float you net 30's and net 60's.

You state this as facts Chu...do you have the paper to back this up..or is this just another way of putting out numbers some some will take it as facts?

I know I don't have all the numbers, the profit margins, and all that.

No kidding...then why are you trying state things as facts then...I am just trying to figure anything why this is important or pertinent with regards to any of this..

But even if I crank them favorably (very large profit margins), I just don't see enough money to satisfy the obligations in a timely manner

See above...you admit you don't know..but you still try to make assumptions and estimates..You can't...you can only guess..

This is the type of crap that is pure BS...Sure..I can see how it might entertain some here..but I can also see how it is slanting everything against the man as well..This may give you credibility with those that hate and despise Mark for the things he's done..but not in my book..nor in many others eyes

If you have facts Chu..post them..Don't post conjecture..or BS just to slant things as you have in the past and how you are currently doing..This is my opinion of what I see you doing..and why..

I know this won't set well with many here Chu...and I am sorry if it offends anyone..but..this type of stuff needs to have a disclaimer on it..

Django1...why should folks step up and defend Mark here..? Most folks don't want to get raked over the coals..that's why..

Curtis...do you honestly believe there wasn't enough money to stay afloat all these years..that they still would be in business?

Mac

 

[cschang]

Curtis...do you honestly believe there wasn't enough money to stay afloat all these years..that they still would be in business?

I think there was enough money to stay in business. My question is, when AV123 was doing its best business, how fast could MLS pay back what he owes?

 

[stevo238]

I'm curious then Mac. Where have those monies that MLS misappropriated from various Raffles and pre pays for future products gone? R&D? Living expenses? Dinner parties? New factories? Travel? Maybe you could take a crack at it and set us straight. I'd be curious what your take is on this.

MLS has had his dancing shoes on for so long now, I don't think he even knows where the money has been spent. And in some ways, all we know is what MLS tells us. And that ain't much lately. No one knows where the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth resides Mac. We've formed our opinions in large part around MLS' explanations. One thing is clear though. It's entirely his mess.

 

[fredk]

I've gotta agree with Mac (sort of). Posts here shift between the factual and the fanciful. Unless you have inside info, you don't know where the money went and why. It is possible that MLS spent the money foolishly on business related things. It is also possible he lived the high life on company money.

Mac. It is entirely possible for AV123 to be under financed for several years and still keep going. In fact, this is a common problem with high growth companies and, pre-recession, av123 was a high growth company.

The pre-sales may have been an early symptom of cash-flow difficulties. It is entirely possible that cash went out the door to finance the early stages of a lot of these 'napkin' products and for that to contribute to the difficulties. Again, this is not unusual in a small company with rapid growth.

I had rides on a couple of pre 2000 high-tech rockets and it was amazing the way in which companies could waste money.

 

[fredk]

Where have those monies that MLS misappropriated from various Raffles and pre pays for future products gone? R&D? Living expenses? Dinner parties? New factories? Travel? Maybe you could take a crack at it and set us straight. I'd be curious what your take is on this.

Unless you were his accountant or his executive assistant, how would you have, or get, this information?

I don't think he even knows where the money has been spent

That is entirely possible.

It's entirely his mess.

Yup, but whether or not it was deliberate scamming, mis-management, or both, is pure speculation.

 

[cschang]

Yup, but whether or not it was deliberate scamming, mis-management, or both, is pure speculation.

In the cases of the raffle money, whatever you want to call it, it is still criminal.

 

[fredk]

Since I do not practice criminal law in the US, I have no idea. It is most certainly immoral.

 

[droht]

This is a very good point. Furthermore, some of the facts that MLS could use to disculpate himself from some accusations would no doubt inculpate him of others. Thus he has no choice but to shut up...

Over on av123 MLS is being asked to fess (sp?) up about the raffles. But how many of us would admit, publicly and in writing, what we are asking him to admit? It amounts to a confession that could be used against him in court, no?
The man truly is in between a rock and a hard place and I almost feel sorry for him. Almost, but not quite...

This is without a doubt the key issue in the whole raffle thing. If I'm mls I'm talking to a good lawyer about what can happen. If I 'fess up and put a plan in place to pay everything owed what am I looking at in terms of legal risk? You have to weigh that against the fact that the long arm of the law is likely coming whether or not he says another word about it on any forum.

If the determination is you can clam up and skate then by all means do so. But if you think you're going to end up in the legal system any way it is far better to get in front of it and control as much of the process as you can.

The crazy thing is that "fully funding"' the raffles still doesn't seem to be priority 1. I'd be doing whatever I could to at least be able to say that NOW everyone has been paid what is owed to them. Mistakes were made, but they have been rectified. Try to get that smoking gun off the table.

It makes you wonder if maybe there are bigger issues that we don't even know about, or if mls is so delusional that he believes his own BS.