Turntable question

[Aburtch]

Greetings. I have a very basic setup, running 2-channel stereo out of my Yamaha RX-V659 receiver (two Cerwin Vega AT-8 speakers).

I was recently gifted a turntable, a Dual CS 508 (http://www.dual-reference.com/tables/CS508.htm). Works great and I love diving back into my old record collection.

My question is what's the best way to beef up the sound? I have to turn the volume way up to get a decent level. Also the sound is a little "tinny" and thin. What's the best way to get more "omph" out of my turntable?

I can't afford new speakers just yet, so is there an under $500 solution? I did some quick google searching and saw this: http://www.phonopreamps.com/TC-770LCpp.html would that work, or do I need something more significant?

Thanks in advance!

 

[TLS Guy]

Greetings. I have a very basic setup, running 2-channel stereo out of my Yamaha RX-V659 receiver (two Cerwin Vega AT-8 speakers).

I was recently gifted a turntable, a Dual CS 508 (http://www.dual-reference.com/tables/CS508.htm). Works great and I love diving back into my old record collection.

My question is what's the best way to beef up the sound? I have to turn the volume way up to get a decent level. Also the sound is a little "tinny" and thin. What's the best way to get more "omph" out of my turntable?

I can't afford new speakers just yet, so is there an under $500 solution? I did some quick google searching and saw this: http://www.phonopreamps.com/TC-770LCpp.html would that work, or do I need something more significant?

Thanks in advance!

I suspect that either your receiver does not have a high gain RIAA input, or if it has you are not using it.

If your receiver has no phono input and stage, then you need a phono preamp, to boost the signal and provide playback equalization of the RIAA curve.

 

[Aburtch]

I suspect that either your receiver does not have a high gain RIAA input, or if it has you are not using it.

If your receiver has no phono input and stage, then you need a phono preamp, to boost the signal and provide playback equalization of the RIAA curve.

The RX-V659 does have a dedicated Phono input which I am currently using. However I'm not sure if it's a "high gain RIAA input."

 

[Aburtch]

The RX-V659 does have a dedicated Phono input which I am currently using. However I'm not sure if it's a "high gain RIAA input."

Would it be bad or hurt the receiver if I used a pre-amp AND plugged it in to the phono input? Also, what is a stage?

 

[Adam]

Would it be bad or hurt the receiver if I used a pre-amp AND plugged it in to the phono input?

I believe so. If you use a phone pre-amp, then you'd want to connect it to one of the other inputs (any of the analog inputs except for the PHONO input). The PHONO input has a higher gain to it, so if you use a pre-amp and plug it into the PHONO input, it would be like plugging a CD player into the PHONO input - the result is that it would sound very loud and (I believe) distorted.

 

[Tomorrow]

That's a fine TT you were given. Congrats.

Your Yamaha, I was 99% certain, has a high gain TT input.

Is the TT grounded and do you know if the cartridge and stylus are sound?

 

[TLS Guy]

The RX-V659 does have a dedicated Phono input which I am currently using. However I'm not sure if it's a "high gain RIAA input."

There is no mention of a proper phono input in the specification. I can't download the manual, as I don't want to sign up for their BS.

If there is an RIAA phono stage it is usually mentioned in the specification.

So I suspect you either don't have one, or it is no good.

What is your cartridge? If it is old it needs replacement, due to hardening of suspension parts.

If you get a preamp you need to plug it into a line input, not a phono input.

I would be this cartridge, or this one.

If either of those cartridges fail to satisfy then your phono input is no good and you will need phono preamp. The one you found should do the trick

 

[Tomorrow]

There is no mention of a proper phono input in the specification. I can't download the manual, as I don't want to sign up for their BS.

If there is an RIAA phono stage it is usually mentioned in the specification.

So I suspect you either don't have one, or it is no good.

What is your cartridge? If it is old it needs replacement, due to hardening of suspension parts.

If you get a preamp you need to plug it into a line input, not a phono input.

I would be this cartridge, or this one.

If either of those cartridges fail to satisfy then your phono input is no good and you will need phono preamp. The one you found should do the trick

Mark,

I just looked at the rear panel of his Rx, and it has a phono input. I'm guessing it's the same as on my RX-V2500. But you are correct, the specs don't say if it's RIAA compliant...nor does it on the specs for mine. But I have no problems with my TT play.

 

[TLS Guy]

Mark,

I just looked at the rear panel of his Rx, and it has a phono input. I'm guessing it's the same as on my RX-V2500. But you are correct, the specs don't say if it's RIAA compliant...nor does it on the specs for mine. But I have no problems with my TT play.

Thanks for the info. In that case, he had better start by replacing the cartridge. However I have a feeling the RIAA stages of receivers are suboptimal. They have been from time immemorial.

Getting really good LP reproduction is not easy. I have never found a way of doing it on the cheap. Some how the rock and pop crowd must like the aberrations turntables are prone to introduce.

I can assure you a turntable set up that will play classical LPs even close to CD quality, is a very expensive proposition. I think this is why the vinyl renaissance has been very slow to catch on among classical collectors.

 

[highfigh]

The Audio Technica cartridge in that link is made more for DJ use and isn't particularly good for getting really good sound. This one (http://www.needledoctor.com/Audio-Technica-120E-Cartridge?sc=2&category=363) is a much better model and it's not much more to pay for the huge difference in sound quality. (I have sold both and listened to both on Dual turntables and others).

If you absolutely need to use a P-mount cartridge, you'll have no choice but if you can use the standard "bayonnet mount", use that- the variety is greater.

The new receivers with Phono input put that on as a convenience and because they don't want to spend the money to include a RIAA preamp. Switching that in/out isn't the best way to go, so they just put a line-level input on so it's not impossible to use a Laser Disc or something after all of the other inputs have been filled.

 

[TLS Guy]

The Audio Technica cartridge in that link is made more for DJ use and isn't particularly good for getting really good sound. This one (http://www.needledoctor.com/Audio-Technica-120E-Cartridge?sc=2&category=363) is a much better model and it's not much more to pay for the huge difference in sound quality. (I have sold both and listened to both on Dual turntables and others).

If you absolutely need to use a P-mount cartridge, you'll have no choice but if you can use the standard "bayonnet mount", use that- the variety is greater.

The new receivers with Phono input put that on as a convenience and because they don't want to spend the money to include a RIAA preamp. Switching that in/out isn't the best way to go, so they just put a line-level input on so it's not impossible to use a Laser Disc or something after all of the other inputs have been filled.

I'm sorry I must have clicked on the wrong cartridge due to the lateness of the hour. It is the 120E I intended to recommend.

Your turntable takes a standard 1/2' mounting cartridges. You do not want a p-mount.

 

[Aburtch]

Thanks!!

Thanks everyone for the great info! My next steps will be to replace the needle cartridge with the one recommended by highfigh AND add a phono pre-stage amp. Then I'll plug that into one of the analogue line inputs I'm not using (not the Phono input) and see how that sounds.

Thanks again for the great advice.

 

[highfigh]

Thanks everyone for the great info! My next steps will be to replace the needle cartridge with the one recommended by highfigh AND add a phono pre-stage amp. Then I'll plug that into one of the analogue line inputs I'm not using (not the Phono input) and see how that sounds.

Thanks again for the great advice.

If the turntable came with the box, look for an overhang gauge. This is part of the alignment and it's important that this be set correctly.

 

[mr-ben]

Did you try simply adjusting the tone controls on your receiver? Maybe there's nothing wrong.

 

[audiofox]

Did you try simply adjusting the tone controls on your receiver? Maybe there's nothing wrong.

Since there is such a low signal, it doesn't sound like a tone control problem-in addition to the alignment suggestions above, I would check all the connections (cartridge-tonearm and turntable-receiver) to make sure you don't have a loose connection and/or a bad connector or cable-the cartridge "cables" are small and can be damaged if not properly handled. You might indeed need a new cartridge, but checking the connections (including possibly removing and replacing/reconnecting the cartridge) will help you practice for when you install the new one-who knows, you could get lucky and find a bad connection and solve your immediate problem. I would also wait on purchasing an outboard preamp-again, you might want one to improve the sound over that obtainable with the receiver's internal phono preamp, but I would get a new cartridge and/or resolve any other interconnect problems before you begin adding more devices to the system-the worst case is that there will be more to troubleshoot if the problem doesn't go away.

 

[highfigh]

The graph in the link shows RIAA equalization for phono playback. Tone controls often have +/- 12dB, and the lowest frequencies are boosted 20dB, which means that even if the bass control is maxed out, it's still not going to be enough to sound "correct". If turning the bass up to Max and turning the treble down doesn't sound right, and if the volume is never enough at close to maximum, you need a phono preamp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization