DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Chu Gai]

And lastly...

Originaly posted by Jed M

Mark, I don't even know how to respond to you. My heart is pounding so fast right now because I am so mad. You are a liar. That is not what my "letter" aka Private Message said and you are a complete and utter liar. My letter said THIS:

"I just thought you may want to know that Mark never sent any of your money to the raffle recipient. It is a FACT. Ask him. He used it for his own needs."

THAT IS THE TRUTH! I never said one word about him not receiving his watch. Quit making yourself out to be the victim Mark. The fact that you would post that proves to me EVERYTHING I need to know about you and hopefully everybody reading this. Even if it was true, to start out your apology with divulging private information between me and another person? What the hell is wrong with you? The fact that you are lying through your teeth is even sadder. Good luck with your "business".

 

[MinusTheBear]

I am aware of the gift card nonsense, even for the weekly sales they did. I remember the hyped "deals" about rockets, mfw's, x-static - products being manufactured currently by them (but not yet arrived in the US wharehouse) that when purchased were put towards a gift card for the total amount of the sale. I know, the whole gift card thing is a slimy way to do business.

 

[Jed M]

I think I should give a little background into what Chu just posted, although he did the best summary I have seen.

A week or so ago, some guy posted on the AV123 forums posted this:

Well, where to start?

Yes, I did buy most of the tickets, but no, I really didn't care whether I won the watch or not. If you check, I could have bought this watch for far less and it would have been a sure thing, not a raffle.

Why did I do it?

MLS made me. That's right. He did. Let me explain...

I've followed this forum for awhile. Even occasionally participated. Even bought the product. But you don't have to buy any AV123 product to understand that we are in the company of a deeply compassionate (but at times somewhat flawed?) man. His good intentions were never in doubt.

To all who care, MLS did call me (I'm in Canada) several times and did ship the watch as promised.

Shame on all those who thought the worst of him.

I found this rather insulting for two reasons. One, he was shaming people who thought poorly of Mark. Two, I found it odd that a raffle post was allowed at the AV123 forum. So I sent him an email and a PM that said simply this:

I just thought you may want to know that Mark never sent any of your money to the raffle recipient. It is a FACT. Ask him. He used it for his own needs.

I would have posted in on the forum but it would have been deleted. I also posted on another forum that I did in fact send that guy a message, so I wasn't trying to hide anything.

Anyway, that is the background. So when I go and read Mark's "apology" to me I find this load:

I saw a letter you sent recently to someone that won a Raffle and in that letter you were quite sure that the winner did not receive his gift... This was a fairly expensive OMEGA wristwatch... I was really surprised to read that letter - and I was equally surprised to see "M's" reply to you. He showed you the watch he won - and along with it a few rather choice words... I had asked him NOT to post this - it was enough that we both knew he had the promised watch...

Sorry, that last sentence makes me want to punch the guy. I am seriously non-violent, but I mean could he be a more condescending liar if he tried? Its not enough to just apologize for what he has done, now he is trying smear me to make me look like I am just out to get him, like he always does. The fact that he posted the contents of a Private Message between myself and another person is shocking to me, but the fact that he lied about the contents was what set me off. His reputation may mean jack to him, but I am not going to let him trash mine. Sorry, to drag this out here, but I have no problem sharing the truth. Everybody can make up their own mind. If you want to incorrectly believe Mark, and think I sent that guy a "letter" claiming lies and rumors, fine, but I just wanted to get my side out too.

Edit: and just to clarify, the guy did respond to my letter but never showed me a picture of the watch he was wearing or a picture of anything. Honestly I don't care if he has it or not, but I don't like Mark telling people stuff I have seen or done when its just 100% not true.

 

[Chu Gai]

Apart from the misremembering of what you wrote Jed, Mark did not effectively address the sundry issues including those of transparency. Being caught in at least three instances of underfunding also calls into question any and all other raffles. As he stated, every To-Do list has a number. I'd have sincerely hoped that somewhere on that do do list, maybe near the top, would have been the sale of his Porche Cayman and the many other watches he's said to own. Maybe a downsizing of his private residence. There were approaches that could've effectively and quickly addressed those and perhaps other matters. OTOH, maybe some stuff was sold to fund his number one priority. Getting amps into the hand of the people owed them as well as getting the MFW-15 rolling again.

 

[NicolasKL]

Out of curiosity, and fairness, are there any other ID companies that take pre-pay money to do development? Price wise these pre-pay things seem to deliver on the bang for the buck, right?

I don't care how good of a deal it is (and it isn't that good of a deal), prepaying for something like an X-Plosive 2 years ago, currently having nothing, and not even having a hint of where the product is on the horizon = not a good deal.

 

[randyb]

You know you don't get this good at subterfuge or slipping punches overnight. This guy is something else.

 

[Jed M]

I don't care how good of a deal it is (and it isn't that good of a deal), prepaying for something like an X-Plosive 2 years ago, currently having nothing, and not even having a hint of where the product is on the horizon = not a good deal.

Agreed. These are not good deals. What about somebody like me who pre-paid well over a year ago for 2 HR kits? Now they are still not ready to ship, but even worse they are no longer designed by Mark Seaton. Now we just have to trust that Mark will deliver a great sub, with no finances and no Seaton. Great deal, I think not. I would back out if I could, but good luck ever getting my money back from AV123.

 

[NicolasKL]

The problem is he accepted pre-payments for everything really. He was clever about how he would do it. He would announce some new napkin sketch and then lo and behold a Gift Certificate promotion would follow soon after. Here he would tell people these aren't actually for the products, but he would let you buy a GC down to the penny for the product you wanted including shipping. He is a weasel. Technically he can say that you bought a GC that is non-refundable, your loss. But like I said, the unethical part is he ran those promotions to coincide with his latest and greatest vaporware announcments and had no problem giving you one in the exact amount it would cost to get that product to your house, even though he would then turn around and deny somebody a refund years down the road claiming that they only bought a GC and it wasn't intended for a product

I think there have only been a few legitimate, no wiggle room, pre-orders. The special finishes for the LS speakers, the 6K RSL-II's, the UFW-12 HR kits and a few Rocket packages. That is just off the top of my head. With the exception of the Rocket packages, most if not all of the other pre-order list has not been filled, going back 3-4 years on some of them.

I bought a bunch of GC's, but only 1 time did it go to the product I intended buying. Thank god I decided not to wait for the BMF and LS-9's.

Don't forget all the coupons, which isn't the same as a GC, but definitely another form of pre-order. I know there were a few times I was considering packages that included coupons like the BMF coupon, and at that point you're basically considering $500 dollar coupons to have a ~ $500 cash value, when in reality, to date, it had a 0 dollar cash value.

 

[Jed M]

Don't forget all the coupons, which isn't the same as a GC, but definitely another form of pre-order. I know there were a few times I was considering packages that included coupons like the BMF coupon, and at that point you're basically considering $500 dollar coupons to have a ~ $500 cash value, when in reality, to date, it had a 0 dollar cash value.

Ah, so true. My friend is still sitting on a BMF coupon. I should tell him to try to exchange it for a Zimbabwean dollar while he still can.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
I wanted to give props to Audioholics for allowing this thread to stand. I have been following on AVS Forum the threads about the serious misdeeds of AV123. What is truly frightening is how much of this information is being censored elsewhere. Disgusting really and brings into question the ethics and transparency of these forums.

Prior to this, I have been bothered by the way certain companies are being sheltered from any critique. Really began with OPPO and Emotiva seemingly being immune from criticism and the censorship of anything that did not speak to the greatness of these companies. And then when you see the companies logo's on the top of the screen.....

Again, thanks to the moderators here for allowing the free flow of discussion. Sadly, what has happened at AV123 has transcended shady and is truly criminal. I just cannot believe large, seemingly open forums would protect this company. And sadly, thanx to the army of fanboi's, hundreds more will be more than likely ripped off by these folks.
Cheers,
JJ

 

[Stereodude]

I would back out if I could, but good luck ever getting my money back from AV123.

Sell your credit. That shouldn't be a problem (aside from the possible difficulty in finding someone who wants it). I sold all my AV123 credit a while back and it was a refreshing to be financially done with them.

 

[Stereodude]

Hello,
I wanted to give props to Audioholics for allowing this thread to stand. I have been following on AVS Forum the threads about the serious misdeeds of AV123. What is truly frightening is how much of this information is being censored elsewhere. Disgusting really and brings into question the ethics and transparency of these forums.

Prior to this, I have been bothered by the way certain companies are being sheltered from any critique. Really began with OPPO and Emotiva seemingly being immune from criticism and the censorship of anything that did not speak to the greatness of these companies. And then when you see the companies logo's on the top of the screen.....

Again, thanks to the moderators here for allowing the free flow of discussion. Sadly, what has happened at AV123 has transcended shady and is truly criminal. I just cannot believe large, seemingly open forums would protect this company. And sadly, thanx to the army of fanboi's, hundreds more will be more than likely ripped off by these folks.
Cheers,
JJ

I would like to share the same sentiments. Thanks to Audioholics for allowing this discussion to occur. Unfortunately it seems that most corners of the audio community at large are not interested in shining the light on the rotten apple in the community or allowing others to shine the light via their forums. While I'm sure they all have their reasons and they might have good intentions, in my mind at the very least they are complicit in helping AV123 and MLS cover up history. And, IMHO, that does potential customers a big disservice.

Thanks again!

 

[Chu Gai]

Hello,
I wanted to give props to Audioholics for allowing this thread to stand. I have been following on AVS Forum the threads about the serious misdeeds of AV123. What is truly frightening is how much of this information is being censored elsewhere. Disgusting really and brings into question the ethics and transparency of these forums.

Prior to this, I have been bothered by the way certain companies are being sheltered from any critique. Really began with OPPO and Emotiva seemingly being immune from criticism and the censorship of anything that did not speak to the greatness of these companies. And then when you see the companies logo's on the top of the screen.....

Again, thanks to the moderators here for allowing the free flow of discussion. Sadly, what has happened at AV123 has transcended shady and is truly criminal. I just cannot believe large, seemingly open forums would protect this company. And sadly, thanx to the army of fanboi's, hundreds more will be more than likely ripped off by these folks.
Cheers,
JJ

Gonk made a very introspective post about this on another forum. To paraphrase, as a result of the stringent posting policies on the AV123 forum, these matters might've been discussed/argued over/whatever on their forum. Since matters of raffles, money owed, product owed, store credit, timelines, or whatever else you can think of has been essentially forbidden over there, it has spilled over into other people's houses. Now, these houses, or internet websites were never intended as a place where people could air their grievances on a matter as wide ranging as this. To discuss things like 'stay away from X because of Y', sure. Those run a few pages and the matter is over. AV123 though had a wide reach of consumers and fans.

Some are pleased with matters, many no longer are. As a result the concerns and the outrage have spilled over into other websites. This can be a tough thing to handle. Many, who are friendly towards each other don't see eye to eye any more. This kind of animosity has a way of spilling over into other unrelated areas. For the website owners this creates a conundrum and places them in positions they never wanted to be in from day one. What place that's in the business of making money wants to deal with this everyday unless that's how they make their money?

If this thread closes, it closes. I hope it won't but there's a need to explore other areas where matters can be aired in an open and effective way. Just in case.

 

[MinusTheBear]

What was AV123 thinking to open up the forum and then censor anything about their problems as company or about the CEO? They had to know that individuals who felt wronged would revolt to other public avenues in which they could not control. In my opinion it is one of the dumbest decisions ever and only adds fuel to the flames in their case. Such poor administrative decision making. This thread has really taken off since then.

 

[gonk]

What was AV123 thinking to open up the forum and then censor anything about their problems as company or about the CEO? They had to know that individuals who felt wronged would revolt to other public avenues in which they could not control. In my opinion it is one of the dumbest decisions ever and only adds fuel to the flames in their case. Such poor administrative decision making. This thread has really taken off since then.

That's exactly why I made the comment that Chu mentioned above. I'll copy and paste:

Because AV123 refuses to allow open discussion of their actions, people are forced to go elsewhere. So you have threads starting at AVS, TCA, Audioholics, and wherever else. You have people expressing legitimate outrage, people asking hard questions that upset other people, even some people taking an easy opportunity to troll a bit. It all ends up creating new messes in other people's homes. (Remember all the comments last year about how AV123 Forum was MLS's home and we had to treat it accordingly? I do. It was in some ways a first step toward what they are doing now with their moderation. And that moderation and the lengthy forum closure have pushed all AV123's dirty laundry into other people's houses. Not very neighborly...) This forces forum admins to make difficult decisions

The whole idea of having this policy of forum moderation - of simply deleting posts that ask unpleasant questions or otherwise don't serve the goal of creating a positive vibe - it a sort of lunacy. It don't envy the admins at any of the forums (Audioholics or its Internet neighbors) when faced with this overflow.

 

[droht]

For some reason gonk's post reminds of this verse from Beck's "Pay No Mind":

Tonight the city is full of morgues
And all the toilets are overflowing
There's shopping malls
Coming out of the walls
As we walk out among the manure

 

[Soundman]

For some reason gonk's post reminds of this verse from Beck's "Pay No Mind":

How Poetic! It really rolls off the tounge, doesn't it.

 

[GirgleMirt]

Just wanted to to say thanks for the admins of audioholics for allowing this thread to exist and to most of the participants here. Already did add a few thanks here and there but thought I'd post about it. You would not believe how reading reasonable posts can be refreshing... Thanks!

A couple of days ago, I was about to post that the thread "Is it safe to buy a MFW" on avsforum had been unlocked, and so that there was maybe 2 places which allowed all these issues to be discussed, but the spineless mods over there didn't simply re-lock the thread, they deleted it. How disgusting. And now that Schifter character is back to his old routine, like nothing ever happened. And anyone addressing any of this will probably get warned then banned. Sickening. How can a forum be so unethical? How can they let a charlatan do his thing while censoring those who bring forth issues with this man and business?

 

[jinjuku]

Just wanted to to say thanks for the admins of audioholics for allowing this thread to exist and to most of the participants here. Already did add a few thanks here and there but thought I'd post about it. You would not believe how reading reasonable posts can be refreshing... Thanks!

A couple of days ago, I was about to post that the thread "Is it safe to buy a MFW" on avsforum had been unlocked, and so that there was maybe 2 places which allowed all these issues to be discussed, but the spineless mods over there didn't simply re-lock the thread, they deleted it. How disgusting. And now that Schifter character is back to his old routine, like nothing ever happened. And anyone addressing any of this will probably get warned then banned. Sickening. How can a forum be so unethical? How can they let a charlatan do his thing while censoring those who bring forth issues with this man and business?

This thread is still up at AVSFORUM: Is It Safe To Buy Dual MFWs?

Maybe the merged the threads?

 

[Matt34]

This thread is still up at AVSFORUM: Is It Safe To Buy Dual MFWs?

Maybe the merged the threads?

Don't think that's the right one Jinjuku, there was another one with a similar title.