DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[fredk]

My this thread has gotten lively lately. Many thanks for the raffle summary. I had no idea how many he had run.

My bulldar (BS radar) has always been set off my MLS.

I always felt the same way, though I did not think anything beyond the usually sales pitch shenanigans were going on.

 

[hasaudio.co.nz]

What absolute aholes! That sux bigtme. I havent read the whold thread but i hope you get your money back. If not, screw them for all their worth in court!

 

[hasaudio.co.nz]

This guy reminds me of mr TIM JOHNSTON from FIREPOWER. I have met Tim and i tell u wat, hes awfully similar to ths Mark fella.

 

[cschang]

It is interesting that the thread was closed by two former employees of AV123, and OK'd by the TCA owner, who is a "friend" of MLS's.

 

[dylancash]

It is interesting that the thread was closed by two former employees of AV123, and OK'd by the TCA owner, who is a "friend" of MLS's.

Actually I can respect that. Do I like it? No, but it is a private business and to my knowledge Mark had not done anything wrong to Craig, Jack or Ray so it probably was pretty uncomfortable for them to have to be known as the site for discussing Mark's evil ways. I have no doubt none of them condone it, but really their site was becoming overrun with MLS malcontents and they are trying to get their own name out there. I think it really put Craig in a hard spot because he has been upfront about his friendship with Mark so I commend him for allowing it as long as he did. I think Craig has handled this really nicely in all honesty, second only to here. I find what TCA did a lot more forgiving then what other large "neutral" sites are doing.

Kudos to Audioholics for having the decency and courage for looking out for their community by allowing true open debate. Slightly off topic, but I find that the political threads on this forum are some of the most well behaved discourse out there and I think that is a tribute to the openness of these forums. I am a relative newbie here but it hasn't gone unnoticed.

 

[NicolasKL]

I do not understand the fanaticism at all--I'm not a true believer about anything.

Me neither. I mean, the traffic over there is probably less than 1/100th of what it used to be, but still, that 0.5% that's back there posting like it's business as usual... You pretty much have to be delusional. Literally. What else would allow you to post on the forum of a person/business that appears to have, again literally, stolen money from orphans and cancer patients?

The original situations that caused the forum shutdown (all or most of which are outlined in this thread) are bad enough, but since the forum reopening what do we have?

1. CONSTANT censoring.
2. MLS using words like "underfunded" when "embezzled" or "stolen" are more accurate.
3. MLS getting all teary and hurt when someone suggests that maybe another poster should wait until a product on the horizon has a shipping confirmation before selling his current setup (are you effing kidding me MLS? When people have been waiting for YEARS for other products from you? When LS and RSL people have given you thousands and thousands of dollars and gotten nothing in returh? When there are people out there with BMF coupons that for the last 2 or 3 years that they might as well have used as toilet paper? Really? You're gonna try and play the martyr HERE?).
4. MLS locking the thread to old raffles, that people have funded to the tune of 5000+ dollars, saying that other OLDER raffles take precedence, and that, apparently, those involved in the newer old raffles can just sit and spin.
5. Rabid fanboys that were previously temporarily banned from the forum for being rabid fanboys are now moderators of the forum.

The whole situation is just ludicrous and disgusting.

I'm in the market for new subwoofage, but I don't care how cheap the MFW is, I won't even consider it. I know it can crank out the SPL (when it's working) but from what I've seen it has a cheap driver, and the numerous failures says to me that they're trying to get by with the minimum expenditure on amplification. Sorry, but a cheap driver and a cheap amp in a pretty box (which frequently has shipping damage or veneer failures) isn't going to get my cash.

 

[cschang]

But in closing the thread, is it a biased or unbiased action? To my knowledge, neither Jack or Ray have made any comments condemning Mark's actions. Ray has stated that he has "inside" info, which just leads me to believe that he is still being duped by MLS.

Yes, I do think it is good that the thread was left as is for so long , but why close it now? It was separated into the Adult Swim area, and has nothing to do with TCA, if anything, the traffic was good for recognition.

 

[NicolasKL]

This is the last thread anywhere I know of that still permits discussion on this subject. Thanks for that, it is a public service.

Hear hear.

 

[cschang]

I'm in the market for new subwoofage, but I don't care how cheap the MFW is, I won't even consider it. I know it can crank out the SPL (when it's working) but from what I've seen it has a cheap driver, and the numerous failures says to me that they're trying to get by with the minimum expenditure on amplification. Sorry, but a cheap driver and a cheap amp in a pretty box (which frequently has shipping damage or veneer failures) isn't going to get my cash.

Have you heard one? The best thing about the sub is the finish. Other than that, the sound quality is not spectacular.

 

[NicolasKL]

Actually I can respect that. Do I like it? No, but it is a private business and to my knowledge Mark had not done anything wrong to Craig, Jack or Ray so it probably was pretty uncomfortable for them to have to be known as the site for discussing Mark's evil ways. I have no doubt none of them condone it, but really their site was becoming overrun with MLS malcontents and they are trying to get their own name out there. I think it really put Craig in a hard spot because he has been upfront about his friendship with Mark so I commend him for allowing it as long as he did.

I wouldn't commend him for anything. He (craig) banned people and deleted posts (and entire threads) like crazy at the beginning. From what I saw it's only when the anti-MLS tide was overwhelming did he see that he had more to gain by allowing it than he did by censoring it. And he was right. If he would have continued his practice of deletion and banning he would have given up a large amount of traffic. If even 1% of the people that he would have previously banned/deleted find a more permanent home there and/or buy a product from him he made a shrewd business decision. And based off his flip flopping, that has to be what it was, a business decision, not an ethical one.

 

[ivseenbetter]

Have you heard one? The best thing about the sub is the finish. Other than that, the sound quality is not spectacular.

Bummer that you think so. I have two of them and I think they sound tremendous. To each their own I guess. I wouldn't refer anybody to buy one since there has been so many issues...but I was lucky enough to get two that work perfectly. My luck paid off with a terrific sounding setup.

 

[gonk]

My bulldar (BS radar) has always been set off my MLS. He makes an announcement, the chorus chimes in with "way to go Mark" and "can I prepay to be first on the list", some smartass chimes in with a reminder of past behavior or missed deadlines, then the chorus attacks. Even before there were any hints of trouble there I had the feeling that I would need to hold on to my wallet if I were to shake the man's hands.

I've always felt the same way. His endless hyperbole, his distinctive mis-use of quotation marks and ellipsis (both of which are often adopted by other forum members), and his use of "hugs" and "humbly" and "for sure" in cases where they don't really seem to fit have always made me feel like I was being deceived somehow.

The chorus no longer has to attack. The chorus is running the forum, so they just start deleting posts. If I recall correctly, the Mac11700 (or something) that is now a forum administrator is the guy that got asked by MLS to take a break from the forum due to his over the top, rabid fanboy attacks on anyone posting anything with even a hint of criticism in it.

It's not even a forum anymore, as was said before, it's a one way hype machine. Very glad I no longer own any av123 equipment (and the ascend/HSU stuff that I replaced it with sounds better anyway ).

I'm not sure how many of the chorus are actively serving as moderators - I think they are still trying to assemble that particular circus act. The post that I had deleted was followed by a warning from Kyle, one of the few employees they have left. The plan from the time they shut down the forum in January was to recruit a team of forum members to moderate, but they waited until recently to try to line up a couple of those members as moderators. Whether it's members of the chorus or people on the payroll, the result is the same: keep all the positive posts, remove all the negative posts.

It is interesting that the thread was closed by two former employees of AV123, and OK'd by the TCA owner, who is a "friend" of MLS's.

In TCA's defense, the thread ran for a long time before it closed and there are still un-moderated discussions ongoing for people who are owed undelivered products (UFW-12 HR and LS-9 in particular). That isn't possible on AV123's own forum, even now that it's re-opened. There is also discussion of people who are owed thousands of dollars in rebates, which also isn't possible on AV123's forum. The raffle debate has been shut down over there, but at least they haven't shut down everything.

This thread does appear to be unique, though, in that it provides a complete overview (as much as possible) of the situation at AV123.

 

[NicolasKL]

Have you heard one? The best thing about the sub is the finish. Other than that, the sound quality is not spectacular.

No, I haven't, but that's pretty much what I suspected/expected. I have a pair of Infinity 4.1ts that have a built in, sealed, ceramic/metallic 12" woofer plus the standalone 1.2s subwoofer. The woofers are essentially the same between the towers and the SW (same driver, same 850 watt BASH amp) and the sub had an MSRP of $1800. Even allowing a generous 50% difference in value between an ID and non-ID and between MSRP and actual sale price, I've still got 3 12" subwoofers with a total value of $2700, something I'm not likely to trade for 2 MFW-15s with a total value of $900.

I would trade the 1.2 sub for something larger and ported, because for 2 channel I already have the 2x12s (I run them as 4 channel speakers), and I wouldn't mind a little extra pressurization and oomph for movies, but I'm not going to trade a good quality sealed 12" for a cheap ported 15" (or 2 of them).

I think if I do end up making a change I'll either go with a homebuilt, or go with an Epik Dynasty or something similar. I'm in the process of moving and the system is moving from a LR that's open to the DR and kitchen, to a dedicated HT room that's not open to anything other than a narrow hallway, so the most likely result is that I'll just keep what I've got. I'm going to guess that 3 sealed 12s is a pretty potent combination in a 14x16' room.

 

[cschang]

Bummer that you think so. I have two of them and I think they sound tremendous. To each their own I guess. I wouldn't refer anybody to buy one since there has been so many issues...but I was lucky enough to get two that work perfectly. My luck paid off with a terrific sounding setup.

My question to you would be "what else have you heard or compared them to?"

They certainly are not bad subs, but they are not top of the heap either. The best thing going for them is the finish.

 

[cschang]

I'm going to guess that 3 sealed 12s is a pretty potent combination in a 14x16' room.

In that size room, you have A LOT of options if you have placement flexibility. You are lucky.

 

[stevo238]

The chorus no longer has to attack. The chorus is running the forum, so they just start deleting posts. If I recall correctly, the Mac11700 (or something) that is now a forum administrator is the guy that got asked by MLS to take a break from the forum due to his over the top, rabid fanboy attacks on anyone posting anything with even a hint of criticism in it.

It's not even a forum anymore, as was said before, it's a one way hype machine. Very glad I no longer own any av123 equipment (and the ascend/HSU stuff that I replaced it with sounds better anyway ).

My follow up comments about Mac got him that time out. He walked right into it. I'm under a 2nd name at AV123 but any mediocre detective should be able to figure out who I am over there. I'm sure I've just cut my own throat there and the AV123 watchers here will put the word out. Mac just wants to be loved. He can't help himself.

 

[Chu Gai]

My question to you would be "what else have you heard or compared them to?"

They certainly are not bad subs, but they are not top of the heap either. The best thing going for them is the finish.

You can get away with a lot if you've got a nice finish. I can't think of too many threads when people are talking about their AV123 products that the finish isn't mentioned with equal fervor. It's just a giant selling point. It's like everyone has turned metero-sexual.

Also, FWIW, a thread discussing whether it was safe to buy an MFW-15 in which MLS chose to participate was recently shut down over at AVS. Quite the pity.

 

[NicolasKL]

Also, FWIW, a thread discussing whether it was safe to buy an MFW-15 in which MLS chose to participate was recently shut down over at AVS. Quite the pity.

Yeah, I saw that coming. Good final post by m-fine though, and rofl at HiFiFuns post.

I still want to see smellyhash's pics of his speakers. I've seen pics of moho that look gorgeous and I've seen some that look hideous, so I wonder where his fall. A lot of the rest of what he said was complete BS though.

 

[ivseenbetter]

My question to you would be "what else have you heard or compared them to?"

They certainly are not bad subs, but they are not top of the heap either. The best thing going for them is the finish.

I have hears some offerings from HSU and some from SVS (I haven't heard a 13 yet so I am kind of bummed about that). There are others I have heard over the past few years as I became more interested in LF options. However, maybe it is easier for you to tell me what I should have listened to that would make me think that the MFW is anything but spectacular. I am all for people putting the word on the street about some of the bad stuff MLS is behind, and I hate the fact that some of their good products (MFW is a good example) is hurt by poor QC issue, but I just don't see how people can suddenly say that their product is suddenly a poor value. There are tons of reviews that rate the MFW very well. Suddenly those reviewers are changing thier minds? No, I don't think so. They are noting that there are some problems with getting what you paid for (bad amp and other issues) but when you do get a quality product it does sound good.

I was lucky enough to fall into the group of folks that had no issues with the MFW, but I don't want anybody to think that I would refer someone to get it. Only because I wouldn't want them to gamble with some of the issues that have popped up. If I could guarantee that they would get a flawless MFW, then I would totally be telling folks that it is an awesome product becuase I have two that back that claim up. Oh, and I am not even worried about the finish. I got the plain black model. I wasn't trying to show off my subs. So, when I say they sound good, I am not letting the finish impact that opinion.

Also, since I don't think there is any point in laying out my qualification for coming up with an opinon on how the MFW sounds, there are several threads that talk about how the MFW sounds when you get past the amp issues. Heck, TCA had the MFW ranked as high as the SVS 13.

Good grief, I hate the way this response sounds. I'm really not trying to defend AV123...I hope nobody takes it that way.

 

[cschang]

Also, since I don't think there is any point in laying out my qualification for coming up with an opinon on how the MFW sounds, there are several threads that talk about how the MFW sounds when you get past the amp issues. Heck, TCA had the MFW ranked as high as the SVS 13.

Most people that have MFWs have not had a quality sub before. I have not seen many comparisons. I take Craig's ranking of the MFW with a grain of salt, since I have heard a fair number of the subs on his list, and some leave me scratching my head. Also, nobody on the rating "panel" is accessible.

Good grief, I hate the way this response sounds. I'm really not trying to defend AV123...I hope nobody takes it that way.

I'm not taking it that way at all. I truly want to know. Which Hsu's and SVS's have you heard? In your own room?