Notes from auditioning speakers

[KEW]

In other words, a coloured midrange. Its easy to make a speaker sound good in a quick comparison by overemphasizing a particular frequency range.

The impression of quicker mid-bass may also be because of this overemphasis.

I would have really liked to have been able to hook EQ into the loop and see what differences remained after the levels were matched.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Cool! I like living in the future.
You may well be right about the sound I am used to. Basically, Acoustic Suspension was "the way" when I was last picking out speakers. That is definitely what I've been happily living with for the past 3 decades.
It'll be interesting to see what the SB12-Plus sounds like in this regard since it is a sealed subwoofer.

My daughter will be coming with me once I'm down to two speakers. At 11 years old, she doesn't have the patience or interest to spend hours in a showroom. However, once I get it down to the finale, I'll bring her and get her opinions.
Cheers,
Kurt

Hi Kurt,

Just a very quick remark here: I did not realise that your daughter is still quite young.
I was assuming that she might be 15 to 18 years old.
So from what I know now, I do understand , just like you said yourself, that it might be just too much of a challenge for her to spend the kind of time that us, audio freaks ,
we spent listening to our mizik.

Cheers man,
Bob

 

[KEW]

Audition process recapitulation

Just to keep things organized and recap my status/progress on auditioning bookshelf speakers:
1) Went to Store 3, compared Paradigm speakers. Favorites emerged as Monitor Mini and Studio 10. The Studio20 sounded (relatively) poor at this shop and may not have been broke in (see item 3 below).
2) Went to Store 2, compared PSB ImagineB to Vandersteen VLR. Vandersteen beat PSB based on high frequency response. This store sells Totem, but the Rainmaker (which is the most comparable Totem speaker) was not in stock.
3) Went to Store 1, compared studio 10 to studio 20. Identical sound, but 20 a little fuller as you would expect from larger mid-bass driver. Still impressed by Monitor Mini.
4) Completed auditioning Paradigm mini vs studio at store 1, conclusion is that Studio 20 is champion among Paradigm.
5) Audition Vandersteen vs Totem Rainmaker at store 2 - yesterday. Rainmaker is champ.
6) As a twist to things, I ran across a deal I couldn't refuse on a pair of RBH 61LSE (essentially a 61-SE/R). So I hope these will make good reference speakers to use for final comparisons between stores and a viable candidate for my final speakers. If I don't like them and end up selling them, I don't think I'll lose much. Unfortunately, I don't expect to have the RBH's in hand until ~8/12/09.
7) Audition RBH 61lSE against Paradigm Studio 20.
8) Audition Champion from #7) against Totem Rainmaker for final champion,
9) Audition "modern" champion against my vintage speakers (AR-3a). This is mainly as a curiosity; I would not have started this process unless I believed modern speakers are better. Of course, the AR's will have better low end (12" woofer), but I plan to run a 2.1 system as my final "modern" system. Nonetheless, AR-3a's routinely go for $800/pr on ebay ($650 plus $150 S&H), so either people still like the sound or they have a significant nostalgia/collector factor.

Item #5) Totem vs. Vandersteen to follow.

 

[KEW]

Totem Rainmaker vs. Vandersteen VLR

Store 2 had called to let me know they had received the Rainmakers, so I made plans to audition them this weekend.
I don't know if it is the competition or just that good people run audio stores, but once again (different store) the sales guy set me up with an A/B system and left me to myself. Maybe it was the stack of 5 CD's in my hand indicating I had my own agenda and was planning to camp out for a while.
The Vandersteens were already on stands and the sales guy shuffled around speakers so the Rainmakers were on stands adjacent to the Vandersteens.
So, I started critical listening. It was immediately apparent that the Rainmaker was a much more open and musical speaker! The Vandersteens were not much competition. The Vandersteens had won me over with their steller highs (vs. PSB ImagineB) and I did notice slightly more presence in the very highest frequencies, but it was a very subtle difference - I was very happy with the high frequency behavior of either. However, in so many other ways the Vandersteens fell behind the Totems. In comparison the Vandersteens sounded "boxy". I had read that word in many pro reviews and wondered exactly what it meant - now I know.
I had planned on spending about 1:30 divining the subtleties between these speakers and here I was, finished after 10 minutes! Well, "that was easy!" but at the same time kind of disappointing. I spent an obligatory additional 20 minutes just to re-verify my initial perceptions, but there wasn't much doubt. I did find a couple of places in Frank Zappa's One Size Fits All where the Vandersteens sounded "cleaner or clearer" but this was on some very electric music and I think the Vandersteen's boxiness somehow worked very well with that material. But outside of those rare and select passages, the Rainmakers sounded better with the Zappa material.
I got the sales guy to switch speakers so I could compare the PSB ImagineB's with the Rainmakers just to reaffirm my previous conclusion about the PSB's. The PSB's were competitive regarding openess and tonal balance. No boxiness there, and I could definitely spend some time trying to figure out which I liked best when listening to electric guitar music. However, as soon as a symbol is tapped, the reduction of higher harmonics on the PSB's was apparent. We are talking at the high end of the high frequencies, but I understand why I eliminated the PSB's last time I was there.

So the Rainmakers are the conclusive winner of this round. Next weekend, I hope to to compare the RBH 61-lse to the Paradigm Studio 20. The weekend after than, I expect to compare that champion with the Rainmakers and finally buy my speakers!

Cheers,
Kurt

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks, again, for sharing your auditioning results. I've never had the pleasure to listen to Totem, so for me this is interesting. I believe most of the drivers they employ are actually Dynaudios (although there is at least one model that doesn't, but the drivers LOOK like Dyns), and I wonder if you've ever listened to Dynaudio speakers. As with Totem, they are typically tougher to drive, most likely due to the choice of the drivers with their beefy voice coils. Dyns can be very smooth, yet detailed, I find subjectively. The price points get a lot higher, but you can still afford some bookshelves. Worth a gander anyways.

Found a couple of ads just to get an idea of street asking prices on used.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1254602737&/Dynaudio-52SE-Cherry-finish

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1253914180&/Dynaudio-Excite-X12-Black-Ash

 

[fredk]

Nice post KEW. I'm really looking forward to your comments on RBH. The folks that run this site REALLY like RBH, but not many that post here have reviewed them.

 

[Lordoftherings]

This is great Kurt, you're doing a very fine job not only for yourself, but for us as well.

I cannot wait more anxiously for your next auditioning session.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[KEW]

Thanks, again, for sharing your auditioning results. I've never had the pleasure to listen to Totem, so for me this is interesting. I believe most of the drivers they employ are actually Dynaudios (although there is at least one model that doesn't, but the drivers LOOK like Dyns), and I wonder if you've ever listened to Dynaudio speakers.

Too many speakers, too little time. No, I've never heard Dynaudio. But unless there is a truly compelling reason, I've pretty much closed the list of candidates. While I am enjoying the process, I do want to reach my goal of having speakers and have to draw the line somewhere!
It amazes me that there are so many speaker companies managing to survive with what must be a minuscule slice of the market!

My list was developed from recommendations from this site and obsessive reading of reviews and the practical aspect of what is available in the local stores. The Vandersteens got into the mix exclusively because they were at the shop that sells PSB and Totem.

 

[KEW]

Nice post KEW. I'm really looking forward to your comments on RBH. The folks that run this site REALLY like RBH, but not many that post here have reviewed them.

RBH doesn't seem too interested in the retail market. I went through their "find a local dealer" link and found 5 local dealers. It turns out all 5 dealers do home installations with next to nothing in the way of a storefront. They are all happy to order speakers for me, but none have speakers in stock (I suspect they mainly deal with in-wall speakers). None were interested in getting a pair in for me to listen to.
I had mostly written off the RBH's as inaccessible until I found the deal on the used 61-lse's.

 

[jostenmeat]

No, I've never heard Dynaudio. But unless there is a truly compelling reason, I've pretty much closed the list of candidates.

Well, they sound really nice. TLS Guy selects their drivers for some of his DIY stuff. After all, Totem chooses them almost exclusively. (However, Dyanudio keeps their best drivers to themselves, AFAIK). Wouldn't you want to hear how they themselves do it? They started out in the studio monitor field as well, AFAIK. Danish company. They make some of the nicest B&M monopoles I've ever heard. However, if I was buying some today, I'd probably go ID like Salk or Ascend, but that's a moot point considering your present dispostion (just like I used to be).

I mean, since they're the ones that actually make the drivers that Totem uses.... wouldn't that be compelling enough? oh I dunno, enjoy!

 

[just listening]

Well, they sound really nice. TLS Guy selects their drivers for some of his DIY stuff. After all, Totem chooses them almost exclusively. (However, Dyanudio keeps their best drivers to themselves, AFAIK). Wouldn't you want to hear how they themselves do it? They started out in the studio monitor field as well, AFAIK. Danish company. They make some of the nicest B&M monopoles I've ever heard. However, if I was buying some today, I'd probably go ID like Salk or Ascend, but that's a moot point considering your present dispostion (just like I used to be).

I mean, since they're the ones that actually make the drivers that Totem uses.... wouldn't that be compelling enough? oh I dunno, enjoy!

I very much enjoy the Dynaudio sound, but the Totem sound is quite a bit different even though most models use Dynaudio drivers. I've heard them side by side and one would never guess that the drivers are basically identical.

I'm looking forward to hearing what KEW says about the Rainmaker vs. Studio 20 comparison. With Paradigm 92 db efficiency I hope the salesperson level matches so that KEW gets the fairest possible comparison. I have my thoughts having heard the two, but with the 20v4's. The new v5's are a whole new ballgame.

 

[Nuance AH]

KEW,

It's interesting that you think the Vandersteen's sounded boxy, as they are designed without a baffle and are meant to not sound boxy at all. Personally I don't think they sound boxy in the slightest, but that's just me. It just goes to show you that this hobby is too subjective to purchase without auditioning for yourself. You're definitely doing it the right way, KEW. I am happy that you're taking the time to audition, and happy that you've got a front runner. Keep 'em coming bud!

Enjoy man!

 

[Davemcc]

No, I've never heard Dynaudio. But unless there is a truly compelling reason, I've pretty much closed the list of candidates.

There is a compelling reason to audition Dynaudio...the sound of the speakers. Dynaudio is known for clear, detailed and neutral sound. I've got a pair of the Focus 140. I find them clearly superior to the Studio 20 which is about the only other speaker on your list that I've heard. That should qualify them for an audition at the very least since the Studio 20 ranks so highly in your auditioning.

Standard disclaimers...IMHO....YMMV.

 

[KEW]

Well, they sound really nice. TLS Guy selects their drivers for some of his DIY stuff. After all, Totem chooses them almost exclusively. (However, Dyanudio keeps their best drivers to themselves, AFAIK). Wouldn't you want to hear how they themselves do it? They started out in the studio monitor field as well, AFAIK. Danish company. They make some of the nicest B&M monopoles I've ever heard. However, if I was buying some today, I'd probably go ID like Salk or Ascend, but that's a moot point considering your present dispostion (just like I used to be).

I mean, since they're the ones that actually make the drivers that Totem uses.... wouldn't that be compelling enough? oh I dunno, enjoy!

Sorry, I don't know how I missed your post for so long. I'll give it some thought. The problem is there is always another speaker which can be auditioned and the line needs to be drawn somewhere. I wouldn't mind a life of auditioning speakers, but the pay sucks and it doesn't eliminate home and family obligations!

 

[KEW]

KEW,

It's interesting that you think the Vandersteen's sounded boxy, as they are designed without a baffle and are meant to not sound boxy at all. Personally I don't think they sound boxy in the slightest, but that's just me. It just goes to show you that this hobby is too subjective to purchase without auditioning for yourself. You're definitely doing it the right way, KEW. I am happy that you're taking the time to audition, and happy that you've got a front runner. Keep 'em coming bud!

Enjoy man!

I probably don't mention the model name as often as I should, but are your talking about the Vandersteen VLR?
http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/VLR1.html
I make the assumption this is the issue because the Vandersteen 1C (for example) is only enclosed by grill cloth:
http://hometheaterreview.com/vandersteen-1c-loudspeaker-reviewed/

 

[KEW]

There is a compelling reason to audition Dynaudio...the sound of the speakers. Dynaudio is known for clear, detailed and neutral sound. I've got a pair of the Focus 140. I find them clearly superior to the Studio 20 which is about the only other speaker on your list that I've heard. That should qualify them for an audition at the very least since the Studio 20 ranks so highly in your auditioning.

Standard disclaimers...IMHO....YMMV.

Hmm, I guess I'll have to give it more thought!

 

[Nuance AH]

I probably don't mention the model name as often as I should, but are your talking about the Vandersteen VLR?
http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/VLR1.html
I make the assumption this is the issue because the Vandersteen 1C (for example) is only enclosed by grill cloth:
http://hometheaterreview.com/vandersteen-1c-loudspeaker-reviewed/

Ohhh, my fault - I missed that. Cool. Wow, they have a box speaker? Who would have thought?! Maybe they should stick to the baffle-less design in the lower end models...

Thanks for the heads up, KEW.

 

[fredk]

The problem is there is always another speaker which can be auditioned and the line needs to be drawn somewhere.

No it dosn't. We need you to... um, you need to audition more speakers.

 

[john72953]

I very much enjoy the Dynaudio sound, but the Totem sound is quite a bit different even though most models use Dynaudio drivers. I've heard them side by side and one would never guess that the drivers are basically identical.

I'm looking forward to hearing what KEW says about the Rainmaker vs. Studio 20 comparison. With Paradigm 92 db efficiency I hope the salesperson level matches so that KEW gets the fairest possible comparison. I have my thoughts having heard the two, but with the 20v4's. The new v5's are a whole new ballgame.

That's because they are highly modified and the enclosures are different...hence a different sound signature. Totem has their own sound, unique to their speaker line and they are well worth considering. As a Totem owner I am also following this thread closely to see what the final outcome is.

John

 

[PENG]

9) Audition "modern" champion against my vintage speakers (AR-3a). This is mainly as a curiosity; I would not have started this process unless I believed modern speakers are better.

There is an outside chance you may be surprised. It also depends on whether your 3a is still in decent shape, especially the crossovers. I have not found too many modern speakers that I like better than the little AR7 that I had when I was a student.