Interconnects

[highfigh]

First, the required caveats.
1. You have to have decent equipment to hear the differences between interconnects. A Denon player 19xx and up, a mid line Yamaha receiver, and speakers with extended high frequency response (Vifa XT25, B&W aluminum domes, ribbons, etc. for tweeters) for example.
2. The subtle differences are best heard on well recorded classical/jazz/vocal etc.
3. You should audition cables in your own home. Don't buy "hear-unheard" from a place with no returns.

Here we go:
Air is considered one of the better sounding dielectrics (well, vacuum is better but just a little hard to build ). Thus the Audioquest Diamondback, the current model of which runs each conductor through a small polyethylene tube with a larger inside diameter than the diameter of the wire. Thus the wire only touches the tube occasinally, and is mostly surrounded by air.
This is the highest price interconnect I recommend thinking about unless you have really good equipment. I paid about $100 per meter pair a couple years ago and that's all they're worth (IMO) -- the current MSRP of $150 is just too high. Highfi's statement that adding a battery to this cable geometry is insane slightly misses the mark -- it's the MSRPs that are insane Putting a slight potential difference an the air tube design does give a slight improvement in sound; however, the air tube design without a battery (Diamondback) gradually devepts a slight DC charge imbalance over the first 30 minutes or so of operation.
A disadvantage of this type of cable construction is lack of mechanical strength. Don't fish this through walls, or use it where it might get stepped on.

Next down the ladder is Teflon, best exemplified by Belden 89259. This cable is the basis for one of the best DIY designs by Jon Risch, but is difficult to find in bulk. Fortunately Blue Jeans Cable, RamElectronics, and SignalCable all carry Teflon interconnects; I'll link to BJC's page: http://bluejeanscable.com/store/shopbycable/89259.htm
and as you can see, you're still looking at $90+ dollars for a 3' pair.
Teflon cable is not very flexible, avoid it where you need tight radius bends.

Next are foamed dielectrics (usually polyethylene) -- the previously mentiond Audioquest Sidewinder is an example of this. Many vendors carry this type of interconnect -- here's BJC's Belden 1694 page:
http://bluejeanscable.com/pages/technicaldocs/1694tech.htm
and we're under $30 for a one meter pair.

Don't expect much from cable upgrades with average equipment. If you can't already hear the difference between good and average recordings you are wasting your money. If all you listen to is rap and tech you are wasting your money.

If people are spending this much and listening that closely, how do they find the time to listen to the music? The search for the best sounding system is like Don Quixote- it'll never happen. That said, when a system sounds exceptionally good, badly recorded music can sound a little better, great sounding music sounds better and life goes on but I want the manufacturers to justify the expense of their cables.

" Putting a slight potential difference an the air tube design does give a slight improvement in sound; however, the air tube design without a battery (Diamondback) gradually devepts a slight DC charge imbalance over the first 30 minutes or so of operation."

How and why is this possible? How does a DC imbalance occur in conductors of alternating current? If the equipment has no grounding issues, they're at the same voltage potential. Different materials generate static voltages when they move against each other but when they aren't moving, this doesn't happen unless a galvanic reaction occurs. Also, the material used to form the tube is polyethylene, IIRC and that's not the best material, as you pointed out.

 

[ggunnell]

I couldn't find my reference for self-biasing specifically on Diamondbacks, but searching for it I ran across an interview with Bill Low of Audioquest where he discusses dielectric bias current briefly: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/audioquestinterview.htm
He shares your view that excessive involvement with equipment for it's own sake is not good. My wife has expressed this view to me as well

 

[Lordoftherings]

I used some inexpensive audio analog interconnects and HDMI audio/video cables from Audioquest, and I like them. They work perfectly for my own use, and the price was small peanuts too.

* By the way, ggunnell, I like the last two lines, from your post just above. There is a certain fair amount of truth in it.

 

[highfigh]

I couldn't find my reference for self-biasing specifically on Diamondbacks, but searching for it I ran across an interview with Bill Low of Audioquest where he discusses dielectric bias current briefly: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/audioquestinterview.htm
He shares your view that excessive involvement with equipment for it's own sake is not good. My wife has expressed this view to me as well

It's kind of funny- none of the electrical/electronic communications engineers I have spoken with about interconnects goes along with any of the claims from "high end" cable sellers. One has designed X-Ray equipment for the food industry and if signal integrity/shielding aren't of paramount importance there, nothing is. Another works for Honeywell in missile guidance, which is another area that needs absolute immunity from interference/signal degradation even in the event of a nuclear detonation/EMP. The others he works with don't see it, either. Compared with data and RF, audio signal is easy to send from one point to another and as long as the signal doesn't change visibly in the process, it shouldn't change audibly.

 

[Lordoftherings]

I guess I should have put a bigger emphasis on his last line.

 

[Swerd]

I couldn't find my reference for self-biasing specifically on Diamondbacks, but searching for it I ran across an interview with Bill Low of Audioquest where he discusses dielectric bias current briefly: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/audioquestinterview.htm
He shares your view that excessive involvement with equipment for it's own sake is not good. My wife has expressed this view to me as well

This is not the kind of evidence I was hoping to see. Interviews with the owner (?) of a high-priced cable company aren't evidence for anything. It is more like advertising than anything else.

In the past I have seen some advertising by Audioquest that is a good example of the audio cable industry practice that bothers me so much. It is full of talk that sounds technical and scientific but actually provides no significant information at all as to whether exotic cable construction or materials have an audible effect. I believe it is the product of marketing departments of such companies that cynically try to take advantage of people.

The type of evidence I would like to see about whether audio cables have an audible effect would be like work from researchers like Sean Olive. A long-time collaborator with Floyd Toole, Olive is one of the few people in audio who understand the reasons why blind listening testing is so important. Although he and Toole have published quite a lot about audible variations among loudspeakers and room acoustics, to my knowledge, they have never published anything addressing the question of audibility due to cables. In my opinion, that says a lot more than all the techno-babble you can find on audio cable makers web sites.

 

[Lordoftherings]

What about MIT cables? Hmmm... With their super technical graphs. Ya, right.

Or XLO cables? A branch of Ultralink cables. They like their 6N copper cables though.

Or Transparent cables? Ouch! What a bunch of bananas for the monkeys.

About Esoteric USA cables? I use few of them in my systems. They cost me very little, and they sound quite smooth, but that's it, smooth. Good reasonable lows though.

And just forget about Monster Cable all together.

* But then, what about WireWorld cables? And David Salz with his Wireworld Interconnect Comparator?

** And last but not least, what about Kimber Kable cables? I use quite a bit of these in my systems, analog and digital interconnects, plus their speaker cables.

~~~ By the way, anyone of you knows James H. Hayward?
He's an electronic engineer, with a severe background in cables' properties, with extensive professional experience on audio interconnects and loudspeaker cables.
And he certainly knows his ABC in cables' comparisons.
Would you like to know more? Anyone?

 

[Swerd]

What about MIT cables? Hmmm... With their super technical graphs. Ya, right.

Or XLO cables? A branch of Ultralink cables. They like their 6N copper cables though.

Or Transparent cables? Ouch! What a bunch of bananas for the monkeys.

About Esoteric USA cables? I use few of them in my systems. They cost me very little, and they sound quite smooth, but that's it, smooth. Good reasonable lows though.

And just forget about Monster Cable all together.

* But then, what about WireWorld cables? And David Salz with his Wireworld Interconnect Comparator?

** And last but not least, what about Kimber Kable cables? I use quite a bit of these in my systems, analog and digital interconnects, plus their speaker cables.

~~~ By the way, anyone of you knows James H. Hayward?
He's an electronic engineer, with a severe background in cables' properties, with extensive professional experience on audio interconnects and loudspeaker cables.
And he certainly knows his ABC in cables' comparisons.
Would you like to know more? Anyone?

I'm not singling out Audioquest. Those other cable makers are to varying degrees just as guilty of this kind of dishonesty. None of them have offered convincing evidence of audible superiority of their products.

I'm not sure what you are saying here about those cable makers. Do you approve or disapprove?

I know nothing of James H. Hayward. What can you tell us about him?

 

[highfigh]

This is not the kind of evidence I was hoping to see. Interviews with the owner (?) of a high-priced cable company aren't evidence for anything. It is more like advertising than anything else.

In the past I have seen some advertising by Audioquest that is a good example of the audio cable industry practice that bothers me so much. It is full of talk that sounds technical and scientific but actually provides no significant information at all as to whether exotic cable construction or materials have an audible effect. I believe it is the product of marketing departments of such companies that cynically try to take advantage of people.

The type of evidence I would like to see about whether audio cables have an audible effect would be like work from researchers like Sean Olive. A long-time collaborator with Floyd Toole, Olive is one of the few people in audio who understand the reasons why blind listening testing is so important. Although he and Toole have published quite a lot about audible variations among loudspeakers and room acoustics, to my knowledge, they have never published anything addressing the question of audibility due to cables. In my opinion, that says a lot more than all the techno-babble you can find on audio cable makers web sites.

I mentioned the AQ battery powered cables (do they make it louder, too?) because I have read their comments from the website, have used some of their A/V cables (I HATE TERMINATING THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and when I asked about the battery powered ones, the guy at the shop showed the price list to me (we met when he was one of my customers).

All of the words used to describe sound- how do they come up with this stuff?

I am convinced that it's possible for one cable to lose less amplitude over long runs, have less distortion of the signal over long runs, have less problem caused by bending, kinking and compression of the dielectric, less inductance, resistance and capacitance than other cables. Objective testing has shown that electrical characteristics of cables vary greatly and when this happens, the differences can't help but alter the waveform in some way. TEF analysis also shows differences between cables and this can influence the sonic characteristics but I DO NOT believe an audio cable should cost $4900.00 for a 2 meter pair (less batteries) or $6900.00 for a 2 meter pair (more batteries).

I also DO NOT believe manufacturers, distributors or retailers should sell items based on fantasy. Yes, some people get all warm and fuzzy when they're told that a cable will sound a certain way but those people need to realize that having their buttons pushed by a salesperson is a bad way to make a buying decision. Reading a description of how a cable may sound is a good way to weed out some of the choices but the only thing that really counts is whether it actually sounds better. This can only be determined through a double blind AB test, if absolute objectivity is to be maintained. Neither the test admin nor the listener can be aware of which cable is used at any time and when the test is performed, the only communication with the listener can be to tell them that the music is starting or stopping, if even that.

If someone truly believes that one cable sounds better than another, great. If they can justify the expense, however large or small, that's great, too. Taking advantage of people and drastically overcharging for cabling is dishonest, IMO, and in many cases, should be looked into by the FTC.

 

[Swerd]

I mentioned the AQ battery powered cables (do they make it louder, too?) because I have read their comments from the website, have used some of their A/V cables (I HATE TERMINATING THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and when I asked about the battery powered ones, the guy at the shop showed the price list to me (we met when he was one of my customers).

All of the words used to describe sound- how do they come up with this stuff?

I once saw those prices too . I never asked, but have always wondered if batteries were included at that price .

 

[highfigh]

I once saw those prices too . I never asked, but have always wondered if batteries were included at that price .

I think they're available at Radio Shack.

I wonder what kind of cables Eric Johnson uses. (For those who haven't heard, he swears that he can tell what brand/type of 9V batteries are in guitar effects pedals and their state of charge).

I have mentioned the IXOS XLR cables I bought for a client and my impression after opening and listening to them. I heard no difference when compared with my old Audio Technica 25' mic cables (the IXOS are 2 meter) and while I expected to see SwitchCraft or Neutrik ends and some kind of decent cable, what I got was far less impressive. Three plain wires of different colors soldered to no-name XLR connectors (but they had gold pins-Ooooooh!) and a translucent white nylon mesh cover. These have a list price of $400 and I wouldn't be surprised to know that the fargin' box cost more to produce. I listened while someone else swapped the cables in the basement. I had no way to see them when they did this and only heard an interruption in the music. I instructed him to change them, or not, when the music stopped.

What a POS!.

 

[highfigh]

~~~ By the way, anyone of you knows James H. Hayward?
He's an electronic engineer, with a severe background in cables' properties, with extensive professional experience on audio interconnects and loudspeaker cables.
And he certainly knows his ABC in cables' comparisons.
Would you like to know more? Anyone?

Moody Blues, right?

I looked in google, Ask.com, Wiki, Answers.com, Creative Commons, and Expedia.com and all I saw was reference to a couple of articles.

Look for cable tests by Nelson Pass.

I may look up someone I went to high school with. He came to the US in '69 when the USSR invaded Czechoslovakia and was bored to tears in our freshman algebra class. His father was one of the head professors in the Physics Department at the University of Prague, took most of his math and science classes at Marquette University once our HS found out his level of intelligence (later in freshman year), continued on to MIT and has worked for NASA singe graduation (he wasn't involved in the Mars lander parachute deployment decisions, either). He has also been interested in audio since before high school.

I sometimes wonder what he has for a system and how much of it he built from scratch.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Some personal and less personal impressions on Interconnects.

I'm not singling out Audioquest. Those other cable makers are to varying degrees just as guilty of this kind of dishonesty. None of them have offered convincing evidence of audible superiority of their products.

I'm not sure what you are saying here about those cable makers. Do you approve or disapprove?

I know nothing of James H. Hayward. What can you tell us about him?

Hi Swerd,

I was not singling you out when I asked those questions. They were meant for anyone that reads this thread. That's why I did not use any quote, or any name. Sorry man, perhaps, I should have been more specific by mentioned it.

Now, that this is out of the way, let's get down to some serious business.
Not that anything before was not serious, but I'm specifically referring to your two specific questions.

1. You ask me if I approve or not about these various cable makers.
I just love it, your question. It's a super cool question.
Wow! How can I start? Ok, I know, because I got some important meetings this afternoon, I'm going to answer it briefly.

* Mit cables = Bunch of horse radish. Absolutely none in my systems.

* XLO & Ultralink cables (same company) = Good affordable cables with high copper contents. Quality of the cables and RCA terminated jacks is good and decent enough. Overall performance is subpar. But some people are more generous than I am. I got no (zip) XLO cables in my own systems, but I do have a bunch of Ultralink cables at home, but very very few that are actually installed in my systems. Most of the ones that I used, are in my secondary systems, with low-fi VCRs and low end equipment. The Ultralink HDMI video cables and Components video cables are just fine high resolution cables without loss. I also use few of them as digital optical cables from various grades, and I'm quite please with them.

* Transparent cables = LOL. What a joke! Worst, muck more worst than MIT cables. These people are the (can I say that? "scums") of the Earth. Or like you guys generally say; scum bags (I'm French, and I try to choose my words very carefully, because what for me, a word has an innocent meaning, might have a totally different meaning for some of you guys, and could be interpreted in the wrong way). And yes, I can say that, I just check in my dictionary. Nothing offensive, perturbing, annoying, destructive, insulting, with that word. If you want to get rip off (not you personally, but anyone that is reading this), just get some Transparent cables. I'm certainly not using any of that pure crap (meaning all the bull these people try to make you believe, and trust me, I know) of nonsense in my systems, and never will.

* Esoteric USA cables = Fine by me. But lack some openess and consequently not the most detailed cable around. Great bass (lows) then, but perhaps lacking that last drop of tightness. I used a few in my systems, but not too many, The speaker cables are nice, very large gauge (9AWG) at a very good price. But I don't use them anymore now, still keep them though for emergency purposes. The interconnects (high purity oxygen free copper Enamel Litz) are fine for analog use on CD players. They are well balanced across the entire audio spectrum. I use different types of these interconnects in my systems, for quite some time now. I enjoyed them.

* Monster Cable = I just don't care anymore about all Monster Cable products, and I even care less about their performance, it is pass the point of no return. I don't have to say more, as I'm sure that you guys know all about their atrocious tactics, their ridiculous overpriced products, about their true origins (fabrication's locations), and all the rest that follows with that kind of philosophy. Do I use some in my systems? Do I really need to answer this at this point?

* Wireworld cable = Good quality cable with some cool features, great neutral audio performance, sounds right in the right jacks from the right components, which is actually few of them. I can talk a lot about Wireworld, but I will cut to the chase. I like these cables, and I use few of them in my systems. Some affordable, and some quite expensive. Final verdict: thumb up.

* Kimber Kable = Love them. I swear by them, from my own set of ears. The proof is in the pudding, oups! pard me,... in the listening. That's my major cable that I use the most in all my systems, interconects (analog and digital), and of course, speaker cables too (8TC and 4TC). Biggest favorite of mine.

* Audioquest cables = Great price, plus very decent performance. I used few of them as interconnects and more as HDMI video cables. Very happy overall with them. Great build quality too. I use mainly the ones that are reasonably priced. I don't go into their 4 digits cables.

* Canare cables = Best value cable across the board. I used that cable as much as Kimber Kable, perhaps less, perhaps more, I don't really know, with over a mile of cables in my home. I used quite a lot of them for analog video Composite, digital Coaxial, and analog interconnect cables in all my systems.
I had them made, or terminate them myself with good quality and value RCA jacks. My favorite of course are the WBT locking types (German made).

* Acoustic Research cables = OK, but not great. I don't use them anymore, at all.

* Phoenix Gold cables = Fine as Y adaptor connectors. Use them on my subwoofers.

* Pro Link Cables = Ok too as Y adaptors and low fi components, like VCRs.

* Scosche cables = Triple shielded interconnects, that are fine by me for some of my subwoofers.

* AudioStream cables = From Paradigm company. I use very few of them. Not my favorite for sure. Some of their cables are poorly build, others are better.
I can live without them.


*** I own several other brands too, but mainly unused, because of second-hand category cables.

~~~ See, I told you that I would be brief. I could easily write a full thread just about cables.

_______________________________

2. Now, your second question. That one too, would require a lot of space and time to elaborate. And I would love to, because this guy is THEE MAN EXPERT on CABLES.

So, what I'll do in this case, is again super short description right to the final conclusion. But before doing so, I'd like to say that I'm going to search for links that best describe his technical analyses from the anatomies of cables.
And if I cannot find those extremely valuable links, I will make the effort of typing the most important points of his extensive researchs and fully complete results, with concrete proofs, backed by scientific proven formulae, with explanatory and explicitly exponential expertise on the subject; even using lamp cords in his tests.

But like I just said, here's the shortest final conclusion ever.

===> Conclusion = Only for speaker cables this time (for interconnect cables, everyone will have to tune in in this very thread in another time, because today, I just don't have the time anymore); so, again, for speaker cables only: Kimber Kable 8TC is #1, closely followed by Kimber Kable 4TC in 2nd place.

Till next time,
Bob

 

[Swerd]

…Taking advantage of people and drastically overcharging for cabling is dishonest, IMO, and in many cases, should be looked into by the FTC.

I really thought I had no more to say on this subject until you mentioned the FTC (Federal Trade Commission).

I have a friend who works for the FTC, and among his many responsibilities there, he enforces the rules on amplifier power ratings and other audio related stuff. Generally this is very low priority stuff for the FTC, as there is plenty of competition, with a wide variety of products for sale, no monopolies, and no serious cases of consumer fraud. They are much more concerned with identity theft and internet fraud.

I asked him why the FTC ignores the audio cable industry and he smiled, winked and said, "We don't go there, and you shouldn't either."

 

[Lordoftherings]

Hi Swerd,

Check my post (#53) just above yours, in case you missed it.

Bob

 

[Lordoftherings]

I once saw those prices too . I never asked, but have always wondered if batteries were included at that price .

LOL. Duracell at the very least, I hope.

 

[Swerd]

Thanks for the clarification. Although your point of view differs from mine on this subject, I have no problem with you having those opinions.

As long as a cable is undamaged and conducts as intended, I remain skeptical about any cables' ability to influence audio performance. If I see convincing evidence that demonstrates cables really can affect sound, I'll not only be surprised, but I'll gladly change my opinion.

 

[Lordoftherings]

I wonder what kind of cables Eric Johnson uses. (For those who haven't heard, he swears that he can tell what brand/type of 9V batteries are in guitar effects pedals and their state of charge).

Hey, Eric Johnson, the famous guitar player.

I use any type of Alkaline 9V batteries in my pedals and Whizz boxes, and I really don't care about the difference in sound from my various guitars.
But then, I never thought of it. Maybe he's into something here.
Perhaps I should listen more carefully next time I change brand of batteries.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Thanks for the clarification. Although your point of view differs from mine on this subject, I have no problem with you having those opinions.

As long as a cable is undamaged and conducts as intended, I remain skeptical about any cables' ability to influence audio performance. If I see convincing evidence that demonstrates cables really can affect sound, I'll not only be surprised, but I'll gladly change my opinion.

Well, a bad cable can limit the signal flow of sound, so it can altered it. Some cables compress the audio signals, by limiting or attenuating the high frequencies, or muddying the lower ones.
And a good cable just simply allow the current signal flow to be just that, unaltered, in all it's full resolute glory.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Moody Blues, right?

I looked in google, Ask.com, Wiki, Answers.com, Creative Commons, and Expedia.com and all I saw was reference to a couple of articles.

Look for cable tests by Nelson Pass.

I may look up someone I went to high school with. He came to the US in '69 when the USSR invaded Czechoslovakia and was bored to tears in our freshman algebra class. His father was one of the head professors in the Physics Department at the University of Prague, took most of his math and science classes at Marquette University once our HS found out his level of intelligence (later in freshman year), continued on to MIT and has worked for NASA singe graduation (he wasn't involved in the Mars lander parachute deployment decisions, either). He has also been interested in audio since before high school.

I sometimes wonder what he has for a system and how much of it he built from scratch.

No Moody Blues here.

Strictly Canadian. Ex-Bell engineer. Canadian universities.

Nelson Pass, the amp designer, I know him from articles I read about his amp's designs. Some of the very best, for sure.

Your next paragraph is quite cool. But me not know that guy at all.