Is this Challenge still Good?

Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
I came across this amp identification challenge on another forum.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

Anyone know if Richard Clark still does this.
Last I heard (about couple months ago), he still does it. :) But, by his own rules.

Good luck. ;)

* Oh, and if you want to, I can give you the name of another guy that does something very similar. Also with $10,000. Who knows, could be the same guy disguise under an alias name. That wouldn't surprise me at all.
 
R

Robof83

Audioholic
Oh I'm not gona do it. I know without a shadow of a doubt that I'd lose:D
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
How will he make sure of that?
He requires a perfect 24 out of 24 score for identification of the amp in question. This is far more than requiring statistically signifigant evidence (say, for example, if the subject could identify one amp over another correctly 65% of the time, which would indeed indicate the subjective differences exist and disprove his hypothesis...but it is his $10K, so I can see why he is so restrictive. To get the money, you have to prove absolutely that you can pick the better sounding amp each and every time.)

This really makes me think some folks have too much time on their hands. Look, this whole hobby is about what connects you to the music in the most engaging and entertaining way. For some, that may mean specsmanship and gear weiner wagging. Their goal is absolute true to source replication of the musical waveform. For others, it is recreating the most vivid and believable recreation of a musical event. This latter sect often use gear which specs horribly, but somehow creates a more engaging musical experience where the gear gets out of the way and lets the music through.

Fact is, hearing is subjective, and 'good sound' is purely in the mind of the observer. Also, unless your room and system is an exact replication of the mixing booth or live venue, an exact recreation based on pure measureable metrics (which I propose do not fully encompass the qualities which we subjectively identify as 'good sound') is simply impossible. I suppose it is much easier to convince oneself that their mega-buck, mega-watt systems are superior simply because they spent so much to get there (such systems typically are quite impressive, after all).

Given the unrealistically high bar set by this challenge, I doubt I could identify my amps 100% of the time, but I strongly suspect I could get a statistically signifigant number of correct identifications. Although I have not been stringent re level matching and such, I have tried numerous different amps in my system without making any other changes, and the differences are quite distinctive. I've tried several solid state amps, all of which support the 'no audible difference' hypothesis; these include a Yamaha receiver (RX396), a couple NAD amps (and old 2100 and a new C372), an Emotiva (RPA-1), and an old Crown pro-audio amp rated at something like 500w rms. Aside from the Yamaha with it's much more modest power reserves, these all sounded pretty much indistinguishable.

Recently, I took the plunge into tubes. Now, I know that these new amps are reactive to the speaker load, don't have the ruler-flat freq response (although they are +/-1.5db from 23hz-22khz, not bad for a tube amp), are severely power limited, and as single ended designs exhibit prominent 2nd order harmonics when approaching their limits. I fully understand the on-paper limitations to such gear. However, the listening experience is so much more enjoyable, and the sonic qualities seem so superior to my ears, I can't deny it.

The ss amps all sound extremely powerful, capable of raising the roof without strain at all. Unfortunately, they only seem to come alive during listening sessions at or above 100db, and I just don't listen that loud except for the briefest of periods. Also, the soundstage is notably blurred, with individual instruments not quite localizable in the image, with the image-depth contained in a shallow range and localized between the speakers. I would never have thought that these amps lacked for anything performance wise, at least until I tried the SETs.

The tube amps, on the other hand, sound rich and full at any volume setting, from the threshold of audibility to their limits (which, in my room and with my speakers, allows dynamic peaks in the high 90's/low 100 db range, plenty for all but rockin' house party levels). Sure, compared to the ss amps, it is like viewing through rose tinted glasses, but despite the coloration, the image is far more focused, deep, and revealing of the recording space. Despite the coloration, these tube amps really get out of the way of the music and let you get absorbed into the performance. They recreate the musical event in a far more compelling way; even in complex orchestral numbers, you can precisely locate individual instruments, and their tone is far more realistic, to the point that it sounds like the musicians are present in the room. The solid state amps just fail to do this; with the tube amps, the 'speaker disappearing act' is typical.

As an example, I was recently listening to an old Widespread Panic CD which is particularly harsh on most ss amplified systems. Specifically, the album is Space Wrangler, and it is characterized by quite a bit of chimes and other high freq percussion instruments. The ss amps without fail blur this high frequency info, resulting in an edgy, fatiguing listening session. With the tube amps, each and every single strike of the chimes and cymbals is noticeably more distinct and well defined, and the kit is noticably placed deeper in the soundstage. Likewise, the violin/viola on this album is screechy and thin when played on the ss amps, where the tubes produce a realistic woody reverberance and you can practially smell the rosin flaking off the bow. Vocals are more distinct, clear, focused, and well rounded. Keep in mind that aside from the amp swap, the room/system/speaker placement did not change. These qualities, even if they are an aberration from a perfectly replicated signal, result in music that pulls you in. It is virtually impossible to avoid an emotional connection with the music with these tube amps. I personally will take the added realism, clarity, and vividness of the tubes, even with the rose colored lenses, over the harsh bright light of solid state amplification.*

Many, particularly the regulars here at AH, cannot seem to wrap their heads around the fact that a sub $500 SET tube amp kit can sonically crush just about any ss amp costing thousands of dollars. I suspect that if such amps were used in this challenge, a statistically significant number of listeners would be able to identify them when compared to ss amps (although I doubt anyone would meet the 100% correct criteria of the challenge), and I also suspect the subjects would greatly prefer their sound.

*I've recently had the luxury to listen to a Pass/First Watt ss amp, which is class A, and it exhibited clarity and depth of field of my tube amps, and has a flatter and much more extended freq response. Of course they cost >$3K. My modest amps cost a tiny fraction of that and get me 95% of the performance. I've never heard any class AB amp that possesses the imaging prowess of pure class A amps, ss or tubed.
 
R

Robof83

Audioholic
24/24 shouldn't be that hard at all if there is truly a night and day difference like some people suggest.

I know I certainly would be 24/24 for distinguishing between pictures of the night sky and pictures of the day sky.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
My op was questioning if LOTR thought the test were rigged;) I completely concur that the test is valid and correct
 
R

Robof83

Audioholic
Also 65% wouldn't be statistically significant at all with only 24 guesses. IMO it does need to be 100% or pretty darn close unless your doing thousands of trials.

All one needs to do to see that 65% is not significant at all is take a coin and see how many sets of 24 flips it takes them to get 16/24 tails(this would be 65%).

It took me all of 3 tries and I got 20/24 tails. If I had been taking Richard's test, I could have won $10,000 on my third try(only spending $800) by simply flipping a coin, if the required % correct was only 65% or even 80%.

Go try it for yourself, it's easy to see why he sets the bar so high.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
24/24 shouldn't be that hard at all if there is truly a night and day difference like some people suggest.

I know I certainly would be 24/24 for distinguishing between pictures of the night sky and pictures of the day sky.
I appreciate your snark! Would >90% suffice?

I would guess that I could distinguish my amps if in this challenge to a fairly high percentage, particularly given the fact that the subject gets to choose the music.

I recently had my tube amps modified slightly, and used several old amps I have lying around in the interim. They all sounded powerful, tight, and generally excellent. But when I returned the tube amps to their rightful spot in the system, it was as though the curtian at the venue opened onto a live musical performance. Maybe not quite night and day, but certainly too distinct not to notice. The advantages in imaging of the tube amps are countered by their other limits, mainly overall power and sheer loudness dramatics. I personally place imaging higher on my wish list than absolute output, just a personal preference. But the immediate and undeniable difference with the tubes was the amazing depth of soundstage, imaging precision, clarity, and an uncanny natural 'liveness' to the sound which none of the other amps could replicate. I am pretty confident I could pick that out.

If anyone cares to sponsor me, I would gladly split the 10K with you! I'm happy enough with my current systems that I am not too compelled to pay 400 bucks to prove a point (when you could get a sick sounding Bottlehead or Decware diy kit for that), but if there are any takers, I'm up for the challenge.

Of course, comparing SET tubes to AB ss amps is kind of apples/oranges comparison.
 
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Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
24/24 shouldn't be that hard at all if there is truly a night and day difference like some people suggest.

I know I certainly would be 24/24 for distinguishing between pictures of the night sky and pictures of the day sky.
Yes, exactly. Many people claim night and day differences, but as soon as they are asked to put it to the test, somehow it becomes very subtle. And the more carefully tested it is, the more subtle it becomes.


I say, if anyone thinks they can tell the difference between amplifiers operated within their capabilities, put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise, I will continue to simply regard such claims as so much hot air. No one has ever been able to demonstrate this ability under properly controlled conditions.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...
Many, particularly the regulars here at AH, cannot seem to wrap their heads around the fact that a sub $500 SET tube amp kit can sonically crush just about any ss amp costing thousands of dollars. I suspect that if such amps were used in this challenge, a statistically significant number of listeners would be able to identify them when compared to ss amps (although I doubt anyone would meet the 100% correct criteria of the challenge), and I also suspect the subjects would greatly prefer their sound.

*I've recently had the luxury to listen to a Pass/First Watt ss amp, which is class A, and it exhibited clarity and depth of field of my tube amps, and has a flatter and much more extended freq response. Of course they cost >$3K. My modest amps cost a tiny fraction of that and get me 95% of the performance. I've never heard any class AB amp that possesses the imaging prowess of pure class A amps, ss or tubed.
Oh, you mean that you prefer a SET amp? With all its THD? That is an issue of preference only, nothing more. No wonder it sounds so different from transparent amps.:D
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Oh, you mean that you prefer a SET amp? With all its THD? That is an issue of preference only, nothing more. No wonder it sounds so different from transparent amps.:D
Yes, I do prefer SETs. And yes, it is an issue of strictly personal preference; although I take into account the opinions of others, objective measurements, those horribly subjective product reviews, etc, it is my subjective experience that ultimately matters most. I think we all would agree that we are all individually stuck with the subjective nature of human hearing.

It's not like you would believe me if I said that my SET's have better transparency and far better detail retrieval than the Emo, Crown, and NADs recently used in the same system, but they do, at least to these ears. The other amps would all spec out far better than the SETs do, by a wide margin and in a multitude of ways. Then why is it that with the SETs in place, I find myself getting lost in the music and enjoying it so much more? Why can these puny 8 watts of SET pwer put to shame a 2000w Crown amp? Know what, I don't care! It is the enjoyment I'm after, not having the most expensive system, nor the most powerful, or the one with perfect specs, or one that will win the approval of folks here. I've found that this is an inhospitable place once the subject of tubes is breached. Its too bad, really. When it comes to musical enjoyment, there is more than one narrow route to get there, and like it or not, many of us have found the SET approach to be tremendously satisfying.

It would still be fun to take the challenge. SET's are distinctive enough, even if you don't like the way they sound, that maybe they would allow one to beat the test. My neuronal pathways are sufficiently tubified that I think I could pull it off. I'll put my amps to the test and split the $10K with you if you pay the fee!
 
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R

Robof83

Audioholic
I say, if you truly believe you can hear a difference, then go take the test. Don't do it to prove a point, do it to net $9,600. If you are truly that confident that you can distinguish between them, than why not? Unless you do have a bit of doubt, in which case you've basically admitted that the differences are quite subtle.

On the flip side, I do agree with most of what your saying. YOU should be the final judge of your equipment, not some graphs or tests. Maybe the combined knowledge of seeing your beloved amps and hearing them are making you hear a better sound. After all, it is your brain doing the hearing,bias included, not your ears.

BTW my intentions weren't to start a huge debate. Someone was asking about it on another forum and I didn't know the answer.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
It is your speakers failing you, it seems, if you need rely upon the extreme coloration that is present in the average SET amplifier.

You get far more control, and better fit to your preferences, if you use proper equipment to dial in your coloration to your preference(s). From the most precision of response changes to the insertion of even order harmonic distortion at controlled levels, you can insert the proper professional studio gear into your system to dial in the desired coloration(s); a far more prudent way to approach things rather than putting up with a fixed level of coloration(s) that you can not precisely control, such as is the case with a SET amplifier.

-Chris
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Oh, you mean that you prefer a SET amp? With all its THD? That is an issue of preference only, nothing more. No wonder it sounds so different from transparent amps.:D
That THD won't begin until pretty close to the cutoff point, though and until that point, they sound pretty nice. I'm kind of surprised that I haven't seen SET amps with parallel output tubes (although I haven't really looked, either).

I have a couple of SE guitar amps and while I don't use the one with 6V6 much, the one with the 6L6G is what I have been playing most, lately. At about 70 years old, original transformers and all of the tubes except the 80 rectifier (I found three that work on ebay for $18.50), it's very clean sounding.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It's good to see those two are still in the industry and working together. Dave Navone had a troubleshooting column in a trade mag when I was doing car audio and Richard Clark had a tech talk column at the same time. Lots of great info from those two.
 

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