5.1 recording of environment

[slisgrinder]

Hey guys,


I have a small query and didn't know where else to post so... what sort of setup would I need to record the environment in 5.1

I mean I know that 5.1 is just panned channels and that the .1 is the LFE channel but if I were to place 5 mics in the appropriate positions like a star, what other equipment would I need to record as well as how can I get the LFE recorded? I want to record the rainstorms here in Calgary but want it in 5.1 (I find the sound of rain soothing including the thunder)...


Thanks

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey guys,


I have a small query and didn't know where else to post so... what sort of setup would I need to record the environment in 5.1

I mean I know that 5.1 is just panned channels and that the .1 is the LFE channel but if I were to place 5 mics in the appropriate positions like a star, what other equipment would I need to record as well as how can I get the LFE recorded? I want to record the rainstorms here in Calgary but want it in 5.1 (I find the sound of rain soothing including the thunder)...


Thanks

You will need five good cardioid microphones. Three facing forward and a pair facing backwards, about 30 cm behind the front trio. The outer mics should be spaced about 27 cm.

You will need a multichannel mixer that can mix to five out, and also mix the five to one. This latter will need sending via a low pass filter to create the LFE channel.

You will need six ADC converters, and multichannel recording software, and a computer designed for audio recording.

That will be a big bill, a very big one, so I suggest you find a recoding of a thunderstorm with rain.

 

[slisgrinder]

Thankx, where can I get good to moderate cardoid mics?

 

[Djizasse]

www.simplynoise.com has a mp3 of rain with some thunderstorm.
It's stereo, but most receivers have DSP programs that turn that into 5.1.
It will sound convincing enough to suit you.

If you just want to create a 5.1 thunderstorm, why not just record parts in stereo and then mix it in 5.1? That will be a LOT easier.
Hell, you don't even need to record, with so many sites giving away sounds for free.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thankx, where can I get good to moderate cardoid mics?

Here is one of the best sources.

Here is another source.

For what you need to do, a vocal mic will be inadequate. What you are trying to do will require studio condenser microphones. Fairly decent ones will be $500 to $1000 each. Good ones much more.

Honestly your project is insane, and unless you have some training and experience in recording techniques, you will not get very far. Producing realistic recordings is a real art.

For what you want you do not have to go out and do this yourself.

 

[slisgrinder]

Kewl, thnks, finally more stuff to droole on...


Is there a block/flowchart diagram that can explain the the multi-channel mixer? I am trying to make something that is more "portable" and I am a n00b at sound so any other fundamentals that I should understand about would be nice too...

 

[Djizasse]

Is there a block/flowchart diagram that can explain the the multi-channel mixer? I am trying to make something that is more "portable" and I am a n00b at sound so any other fundamentals that I should understand about would be nice too...

I think you don't understand the complexity of the process. It's not easy to make a good sounding stereo mix, let alone a 5.1 mix.
There's no software that will let you do what you want easily. I think Logic has a nice 5.1 mixer that let's you position the sound where you want, but even then, it will not be easy. And Logic is not cheap.

Maybe someone here will know some software that's more accessible and easy to work with.

I can point you in the right path, but I need to know what experience do you have with sound creation or music making.

 

[slisgrinder]

to simply put, I am jumping into the world of sound as of today...I have no experience with sound or music creation what so ever...I am not looking for any peice of software but rather what goes in between the mic/s and the computer that records the sound/s.

 

[TLS Guy]

to simply put, I am jumping into the world of sound as of today...I have no experience with sound or music creation what so ever...I am not looking for any peice of software but rather what goes in between the mic/s and the computer that records the sound/s.

In that case you need a much deeper education than we can possibly give you on a forum like this. For an education like that you need a University.

Your question started out has a request to record a thunderstorm and rain so you could sleep!

We were tactfully trying to point out that the project was not cost effective.

Now you are wanting to be recording mix and production engineer!

Microphone techniques requires text books to themselves. The art of mixing also is a huge subject, to say nothing of editing and post production work.

You are asking us to write you textbooks on these forums.

I will make a few general observations.

Microphones and the monitor speakers are crucial. You simply can't have microphones too good.

The monitor speakers and all speakers in the production chain need to be exemplary. You always mix and Eq to the monitor speakers. So unless you are a skilled speaker designer and builder speakers in the 20K plus range per pair are pretty much mandatory. Although price is a poor guide as I auditioned a 50K per pair set of speakers on Friday that were simply dreadful.

Learning to choose the right microphones, miking approach and placement for the venue and program are crucial.

You asked about mixers. Different firms and designers configure their mixers differently. You need to choose a mixer that is in line with your philosophy. I will say that one of my main criteria when choosing a mixer is the headroom of the front end. Many mixers fall short here. Good mixers are expensive.

This subject is really well outside the scope of this forum. I think there are may be three members at the most that have any experience in this area.

I had a small recording company for many years, and did hundreds of outside broadcasts for my local public radio station as a public service. I was forced to stop because of health problems, that precluded me lifting the gear and running cables.

I have only ever made two channel recordings. I would strongly suggest that you learn to make good two channel recordings before progressing to surround recordings. Very precise monitoring requirements are required for properly balancing surround recordings, to say nothing of the microphone techniques which are still very much in evolution.

 

[slisgrinder]

whoa, 20k for monitors, waaay out of my league. I guess I will just keep learning then, start out small and work my way up. Hopefully I can consider a career in sound and hopefully its feasible in the future for me to do so...Thanks, but out of curiosity, anything offered in Canada for a career in sound I mean in a technical area like speaker designing or room acoustics?

 

[jamie2112]

Wow what an ambitious guy you are................LOL........ Pretty funny read for me as that is what I do and it takes years as the Dr. said to learn and perfect the art of recording and mixing. I would look into an audio production class at your local community college as you need to learn the basics first.Walk before you run man............best of luck to you though.

 

[Djizasse]

whoa, 20k for monitors, waaay out of my league. I guess I will just keep learning then, start out small and work my way up. Hopefully I can consider a career in sound and hopefully its feasible in the future for me to do so...Thanks, but out of curiosity, anything offered in Canada for a career in sound I mean in a technical area like speaker designing or room acoustics?

You're jumping all over the place
Take it easy. Speaker design and room acoustics? You'll have to study a lot for these ones. Good luck with that.

Music production. Here's a beginners guide:
http://www.rhythmcreation.com/2007/12/18/beginners-guide-to-music-production-part-1-equipment
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/article/601-beginners-guide-to-computer-music.html

Some magazines:
Computer Music
Sound on Sound
Music Tech

Foruns:
harmonycentral
Music Radar
Recording Review

If I were you I would buy a magazine (CM or SOS) just to have a notion of what's out there.

 

[Savant]

Recording technique, particular for 5.1, is undoubtedly a more complex topic than can be covered in a forum such as this one, as was mentioned earlier.

However, recording a thunderstorm monaurally - one microphone and some cheap / free software - is very easy. My question would be why the desire to accomplish this in 5.1? If the desire is for a soothing recording for playback on a small stereo, mono is just fine. An inexpensive stereo microphone can also be considered, and is available from just about anywhere (music store, Radio Shack, even Walmart might have one). Simply record to a computer using built-in software (if available) or freeware that records to WAV format.

Further, if there is a desire to use all the loudspeakers in a system, a stereo recording of a rainstorm played back on a surround system using the Dolby ProLogic setting should be just fine. Especially if all that is desired is some soothing ambient background noise.

The only other thing I will mention is cautionary: Beware that when listening to a "live" storm versus listening to a playback of a recorded storm, there are two different psychoacoustical mechanisms at play. When sitting on the front porch, listening to a storm, the ear-brain focus is on the sounds of the storm. The result is (for you) a soothing experience. When the storm is recorded, the ear-brain is not able to focus as well (or at all). Further, everything is recorded, not just the storm sounds. Thus, insect and bird noise, air conditioner noise, traffic noise, airplane noise, dogs barking, and so on will all be present in the recording. These are noises that are present in the "live" experience as well, but are psychoacoustically "filtered out." Because of the way the nervous system is wired, these noises will not be "filtered out" when listening to a playback of the recorded storm. Dissatisfaction with the end product (after all the time involved to produce it) could result.

That's a long-winded way of saying that it may be best to drive several miles outside of Calgary on a little-used country road to make the recording. (Bearing in mind that there are few places free of insects and birds, even during a storm.)

Alternatively, I'm betting commercial recordings (done professionally - perhaps even in 5.1) of rainstorms are readily available for sale on the Internet. Foley houses, sound effects companies, etc., usually offer such things. Unless there is something particularly unique about how rain, thunder, and wind sound in Calgary, this could be the best choice.

 

[slisgrinder]

There is nothing unique about the thunderstorms in Calgary... I just want a working system that I can use anywhere is what I am trying to accomplish. I am into robotics and such a system would mean a lot for human-robot relationship especially if for example there is a remote operated vehicle but you wont know what the vehicle is listening to in its environment. So I decided to start out small so a thunderstorm was the perfect candidate since it offers a wide variety of sounds all at once plus I find thunderstorms soothing.

I understand that playing back a recorded sound and listening to a "live" sound is very different and that I could be dissapointed in the end result, but its worth it if I can get a portable system that can do some decent recording...

I just want something confirmed quickly... is the arrangement of electronics in a mixer correct:

[mic line in] --> [pre-amp] --> [adc] --> [dsp] --> [computer for recording]

how are values from the adc interpreted by the dsp or computer if the above is correct?

 

[Savant]

I just want something confirmed quickly... is the arrangement of electronics in a mixer correct:

[mic line in] --> [pre-amp] --> [adc] --> [dsp] --> [computer for recording]

how are values from the adc interpreted by the dsp or computer if the above is correct?

The chain you described is more or less correct. I think the short answer to your question is "it's in the software." There are many recording software platforms commercially available.

If this is something you intend to start doing regularly, as a hobby, I can suggest investing in a decent microphone (or two) and a simple computer audio interface. For the types of recording you're considering, I would suggest a condenser microphone, which will require an interface that supplies phantom power. Many of the low-cost (but decent quality) computer audio interface units come with software that can be used to record and process. This will at least get you started. As you learn more, you can expand the system.

One resource that I can recommend is Sweetwater Sound. Most of their sales folks are very audio-tech savvy. If you explain what you're trying to do, they should be able to steer you towards some good gear options.

 

[TLS Guy]

The chain you described is more or less correct. I think the short answer to your question is "it's in the software." There are many recording software platforms commercially available.

If this is something you intend to start doing regularly, as a hobby, I can suggest investing in a decent microphone (or two) and a simple computer audio interface. For the types of recording you're considering, I would suggest a condenser microphone, which will require an interface that supplies phantom power. Many of the low-cost (but decent quality) computer audio interface units come with software that can be used to record and process. This will at least get you started. As you learn more, you can expand the system.

One resource that I can recommend is Sweetwater Sound. Most of their sales folks are very audio-tech savvy. If you explain what you're trying to do, they should be able to steer you towards some good gear options.

Yes, sweetwater are a good outfit, I already sent you a link.

Again, I stress look at the headroom of the front end. It needs at least 120 db headroom above the noise floor. Then you need to consider what mixdown configurations you will need.

 

[WmAx]

I can recommend a microphone. I have measured several microphones and reviewed 3rd party measurements and manufacturer measurements(which are usually not so honest...).

The absolute best microphone for value is the Behringer B-5. $80-$90 each. It is a condenser mic with both omnipolar and cardoid capsules. Both capsules are extraordinarily flat in response - superior to other products costing many times more. Noise level is very good - about the standard level you would expect from a high quality mic with the size diaphragm used here. Distortion is extremely low. This mic is about as good as one could hope. Even build quality is excellent - and better than many low cost microphones. The machine work is much finer than normal than would expects at this price point. To get substantially better, you need to spend about $1k, and then, the improvement gained is going to be marginal at best, and barely audible. Response is about +/- 1-1.5dB up to 16Khz. Starting at the bass end as reference, it's dead flat to about 200hz, and by 2khz, a -1db reference... and at 15Khz, it's +1dB.

Here is the actual measured acoustic response in an anechoic tunnel compared against a lab calibrated (+/- 1 dB accuracy) microphone.

-Chris

 

[Djizasse]

Why does the ECM8000 seem to have a better response? I'm I seeing this right?

 

[WmAx]

Why does the ECM8000 seem to have a better response? I'm I seeing this right?

That is an old version of the ECM8000. Behringer used to use the very linear Panasonic capsules but later on Panasonic discontinued the very linear capsules, replacing them with ones with far poorer response. Current ECM8000 units have a much rougher response. The ECM8000 plot in this response is just there for reference. The ECM8000 has a very tiny capsule, thus, high noise floor levels. As such, it's not useful for recordings where quiet passages exist.

-Chris

 

[TLS Guy]

Why does the ECM8000 seem to have a better response? I'm I seeing this right?

The ECM8000 is an omni mike and they usually have the flatter response.

However you can not judge a mic by frequency response alone. Like the mixer, they have to have huge headroom, over 100 db, only costly ones have. They also need good impulse response and low distortion.

I really doubt I could go and record a symphony orchestra or a large choral work with that Behringer.

Here is a workhorse of the the industry the Neumann U87. I used the Neumann SM 60 FET for years to make my recordings and still have this wonderful microphone. It is essentially two U87 one above the other, and you can rotate the top capsule with respect to the lower.

Here is the frequency response.

Currently the finest mics on the planet are those from Earthworks. You will note that Behringer have copied the body style of the Earthworks mics, which is very low class.

Take a look at this QTC 50 and note its dynamic range.

Here is one of their cardioids the SR 30.