Transmission line cabinets

[CraigV]

Wasn’t DCM into TL’s back in the day?

 

[Swerd]

You have to be wary of ribbons. As in all things there are pros and cons. They have fine detail, however they have significantly higher distortion than domes especially in the lower reaches. They generally require a high order acoustic crossover. Even at that they are not good high spl drivers because of rising distortion.

If I use a ribbon tweeter, I like to be able to crossover at 4 kHz or higher.

The final problem is integration as the dispersion pattern of ribbons and the cone drivers they are usually mated with are very different.

Dennis Murphy, my source of all info on Salk speakers, has listened to and played with all the commercially available ribbon tweeters. He prefers the LCY ribbon to the Aurum Cantus G2 ribbon in a 2-way or MTM where he crosses them at 2.5 or 2.6 kHz with LR4th order slopes. They seem free of audible distortion used that way. I haven't seen measurements, but I trust Dennis's ears on this. The Madisound link shows some manufacturer's data including a FR curve. The LCY ribbon uses twin ribbons half the height of most other ribbons, allowing much better vertical dispersion.

 

[bandphan]

Wasn’t DCM into TL’s back in the day?

yep they were

 

[Swerd]

I was thinking the Veracity HT-3 actually.....

Dennis Murphy does have a single HT3 available for listening. It is an amazing speaker. It is very illuminating to be able to compare it to other Salk models.

With the HT3's 85 dB sensitivity and impedance that dips below 3 ohms somewhere in the midbass, you should be aware that they need big stable amplification. Dennis has one rather expensive 200 wpc amp (brand not to be named here) that groans, complains, goes into protect mode, and has fizzled at least once that I know of when he drove the HT3 hard. That 10" TC Sounds-type woofer is the reason. The HT2 in either ported or TL cabinet versions is significantly easier to drive.

One reason why Salk was interested in the new HT4 design was to make a full range 3-way that was easier to drive than the HT3.

 

[agarwalro]

The simple explanation is a series of “walls” inside the enclosure to extend bass response.

Are you saying that the innovative BlOSE Waveguide is just a masterfully marketed TL concept .

 

[jostenmeat]

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Swerd.

I thought the ribbon tweeter SongTower sounded somewhat cleaner or less noisy than the dome tweeter SongTower. I only heard this on quieter music that featured a single singer or unamplified musical instrument like a piano. Louder music masked this difference. Overall this difference was, in my opinion, subtle. I am 59 years old and have ears typical of men of that age. Your high frequency hearing may differ.

I'm actually looking around for my friend, someone older than you, but very involved with classical music. 100% unamplified classical. Regardless, even if there was an easily discernable improvement, it doesn't seem to be worth a near 50% increase in cost.

The crossover frequency for both models is about 2500 Hz. That's roughly an octave lower than the highest note on a piano.

Or about as high as you'll ever normally hear a violin play (if even that high). After a brief calculation, I believe that is just 10hz above E7 (at least if the E7 was played as a perfect 5th above A7, tempered would be closer).

I may be somewhat biased (I bought my STs before there was a ribbon version) but, my feeling is that $700 is a lot to pay for that difference. Obviously others have felt differently.

Thanks. The bare bones ST is one of my top recommendations to my friend. Of course, neither of us have heard it, but enough hobbyists that I respect seem to love Salk products, most particularly for the price. Thanks again.

 

[Warpdrv]

Dennis Murphy does have a single HT3 available for listening. It is an amazing speaker. It is very illuminating to be able to compare it to other Salk models.

With the HT3's 85 dB sensitivity and impedance that dips below 3 ohms somewhere in the midbass, you should be aware that they need big stable amplification. Dennis has one rather expensive 200 wpc amp (brand not to be named here) that groans, complains, goes into protect mode, and has fizzled at least once that I know of when he drove the HT3 hard. That 10" TC Sounds-type woofer is the reason. The HT2 in either ported or TL cabinet versions is significantly easier to drive.

One reason why Salk was interested in the new HT4 design was to make a full range 3-way that was easier to drive than the HT3.

Just a note here....

Since TC-Sounds is no longer (though they are coming back likely this year), Salk had changed his 10" drivers on the HT3 to custom made Acoustic Elegance (AE Speakers) drivers. He is very happy with the results.

He is also using AE Speakers 12" drivers and Passives on his latest and greatest HT4's or what ever they are called...

 

[Wannabubble]

Are you saying that the innovative BlOSE Waveguide is just a masterfully marketed TL concept .

I saw a commercial for that just the other day and thought the same thing! LOL

 

[Davemcc]

Swerd, would you think that the ribbon upgrade to be worth the $700?

I've heard the two versions back to back. To me, it was like listening to two different speakers, not simply an upgrade of one over the other. I found the ribbon tweeters to be a significant upgrade that I would definitely want if I were in the market for ST's right now. That is just my humble opinion.

 

[jostenmeat]

I've heard the two versions back to back. To me, it was like listening to two different speakers, not simply an upgrade of one over the other. I found the ribbon tweeters to be a significant upgrade that I would definitely want if I were in the market for ST's right now. That is just my humble opinion.

I thought you once said something like that. Thanks. However, it appears to be a moot point, at least to my friend, as he is leaning towards bookshelves, for which I'm really pushing the Ascend Sierras.

Anyone hear the Salk bookshelves? If anyone has, could anyone compare them to Ascends? Asking for a lot, but ya never know.

Actually, please just PM, because I'd hate to hijack this excellent thread. Thanks to those who've helped.

 

[haraldo]

If you are ever up in the upper midwest you are welcome to visit and have some R & R at the same time. It is beautiful in all seasons, though you want to avoid the snow melt.

Think I need a trip to Benedict MN

I absolutely love TL speakers, still remember some IMF's from way back in time many many years ago.....

Well, nothing to do with TL's but.... Anyone compared the LCY's to Air Motion Transformer's like Mundorf AMT2340 ?

Unfortunately MathCad worksheets as provided by Martin J. King is not available anymore, any good clues about where to get them, tried to google this but with no good results,

There are also some TL speakers here:
http://www.renaudio.com/homeaudio/floorstandingspeakers.htm

 

[CraigV]

Are you saying that the innovative BlOSE Waveguide is just a masterfully marketed TL concept .

…and why haven’t you been banned yet for such heresy?

 

[Adam]

…and why haven’t you been banned yet for such heresy?

Must be those photos of Gene.

 

[TLS Guy]

Think I need a trip to Benedict MN

I absolutely love TL speakers, still remember some IMF's from way back in time many many years ago.....

Well, nothing to do with TL's but.... Anyone compared the LCY's to Air Motion Transformer's like Mundorf AMT2340 ?

Unfortunately MathCad worksheets as provided by Martin J. King is not available anymore, any good clues about where to get them, tried to google this but with no good results,

There are also some TL speakers here:
http://www.renaudio.com/homeaudio/floorstandingspeakers.htm

You are welcome any time. There are lots of Norwegians round here also, so might feel you have never left home!

G. L. Augspurger has just written a TL modeling program. I have not purchased it yet but probably will shortly.

 

[Lordoftherings]

DCM TF-1000 Timeframe, transmission line loudspeaker.

Wasn’t DCM into TL’s back in the day?

I almost bought a pair of DCM Time Frame TF-1000 back in 1988.
They were very nice sounding, full fleshed with great bass extension.
Their fequency response was measured at +/- 1.5db from 400 to 20 khz, very linear and flat. The -6db point was at 25hz, and -3db at 28hz.
The useable bass (-10db point) was at 20hz. They were 50" tall (with spikes).

Overall, they were very smooth, accurate, powerful, neutral and musical.
The tweeter was very quick and controlled.
Transients were very natural and the sound was effortless.

There is no SUBstitute for smoothness and bass response extension.

A great virtue of the tapered transmission line woofer loading is that below its resonance it remains damp, and does not rattle until grossly overdriven.
Where extremely low bass can cause mechanical noise, it does not occur here with the TF-1000. You could play these extremely loud without any complaint.

But, I was looking for even lower and flatter bass extention at that time, so I pick the Image Concept 200, with the -3db point at 24hz, flat to 28hz.
And they were also extremely smooth, musical, accurate, neutral, musical, natural with great imaging and a focus to die for; plus they were less expensive too.
Like I just said, there is no SUBstitute for Smoothness and great Bass extension.
But I still remember their sound (TF-1000) very clearly.

And then, there was the Mirage M1, which I came close to a hair of purchasing... Just too big for my room at that time.

By the way, one of my SUBwoofer is a transmission line one, the Definitive Technology Powerfield 15 TL SUBwoofer. The front and rear are 1.5" thick.
A great sub for movies.

Yep, transmission line speakers and subs, I dig it.

Bob

 

[R-Carpenter]

You are welcome any time. There are lots of Norwegians round here also, so might feel you have never left home!

G. L. Augspurger has just written a TL modeling program. I have not purchased it yet but probably will shortly.

It is not compatible with windows XP or Vista. I have wrote to the staff of Audio Express and they should have an update from Mr.Augspurger soon.
I would find working in DOS very inconvenient but I am looking forward to this software as well.
Best, Roman.

 

[haraldo]

It is not compatible with windows XP or Vista. I have wrote to the staff of Audio Express and they should have an update from Mr.Augspurger soon.
I would find working in DOS very inconvenient but I am looking forward to this software as well.
Best, Roman.

If it requires DOS you can install VmWare Server, which is free and runs on any platform, and you can create a virtual machine with DOS, so you can run program here. Inconvenient yes but it will run within XP, Vista, Mac, any Linux distro, anything.....

Or is it just that you need to run it within a Command Prompt window?

 

[haraldo]

I believe these have some sort of TL loading, although technical literature is not so clear
http://www.vaf.com.au/detail.asp?audio=signature&grunt=s200r26719

But look at specs: 21Hz ~ 19kHz (±1.2dB) and -3 dB at 17Hz

 

[haraldo]

TLS Guy. I believe you were going to work on some new TL subwoofers....

Any progress with these?, anything to share with us?

 

[R-Carpenter]

I believe these have some sort of TL loading, although technical literature is not so clear
http://www.vaf.com.au/detail.asp?audio=signature&grunt=s200r26719

But look at specs: 21Hz ~ 19kHz (±1.2dB) and -3 dB at 17Hz

25mm sonotex tweeter.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_324&products_id=778

Harldo, I can run it in DOS if I have to but why bother if they are going to update it within a month or so. Thanks for advise though.

Best, Roman.