BMXTRIX, majorloser, bandphan, other pro's:

[jostenmeat]

Help me learn how to calibrate! PLEASE! Or... talk me out of it!

I have a JVC RS1. While there are limitations on its color accuracy, I want to maximize its performance. Whatever I learn can be applied to future displays.

What do I do? Take an ISF training course? Do I have to already be a pro to be accepted? How much does a course cost?

What tools are recommended? I just clicked on the CalMan software link. Thumbs up? Which version do I buy?

For a colorimeter, perhaps the Eye-One? I see that it's less than $200 at Amazon.


Am I being delusional? I already do NOT understand most of the Spears/Munsil disc. I'm less concerned with jaggies, or contouring, or whatever (not that these things can be calibrated for), than I am with color accuracy for now. My AVIA disc definitely does some good, but I know there's a lot more to it. OTOH, I might be under the impression that there isn't a whole lot I can do with the RS1. You wouldn't know, would you BMXTRIX?

Rather than spending on a calibration course, am I better off dropping a whopping +$4k on a Lumagen XE, and then look to forums for assistance?

Perhaps the best way of looking at it, and is what I have been doing, is sitting put, and then in a few years, upgrade the PJ with the hopes that the unit itself will have enough accuracy OTB, and the flexibility to tweak otherwise. If this is the best way to look at it, please confirm.

Yes, I'm probably crazy. Maybe I'll come back down to earth shortly.


I am pretty open to different approaches. Whether it's jumping in to the deep end head first, or checking the water with my tippy toes.

 

[bandphan]

I like this for a visual no hardware program
http://www.displaymate.com/isf/infodmwv.html

For the $200 the eye1 or for 300 the ColorEyes Display Pro are great plug and play units


Im pretty sure your delusional but whats that got to do with the AV world? we all are

As for ISF, the gear gets down right expensive if you decide for the full blown treatment (up 15k for hardware)

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks bp. What about understanding service menus? (I will need to in order to take advantage of calibration software, right?). Should I contact JVC directly for advice on where to get training?

Do I stop now in my tracks before I destroy my PJ?

ok, I responded before you edited. $15k in hardware. Yikes. I WOULD pay for a pro cal and be done with it. . . if I had a plasma. But, with quickly dying bulbs, I need to calibrate every 100-200 hrs.

 

[bandphan]

Thanks bp. What about understanding service menus? (I will need to in order to take advantage of calibration software, right?). Should I contact JVC directly for advice on where to get training?

Do I stop now in my tracks before I destroy my PJ?

ok, I responded before you edited. $15k in hardware. Yikes. I WOULD pay for a pro cal and be done with it. . . if I had a plasma. But, with quickly dying bulbs, I need to calibrate every 100-200 hrs.

Under the best conditions, offsets in the service menu should be adjusted. Ill take a look at your FP and see what is offered. IMO The plug and play/ and the visual only will yeild good results when calibrating+/- 200hrs.

 

[jostenmeat]

Under the best conditions, offsets in the service menu should be adjusted. Ill take a look at your FP and see what is offered. IMO The plug and play/ and the visual only will yeild good results when calibrating+/- 200hrs.

I guess I've repped you too recently. If I could click the thanks button 100x I would.

 

[rmk]

I guess I've repped you too recently. If I could click the thanks button 100x I would.

I did it for you.

 

[BMXTRIX]

There's a lot of good info. here already and realistically, while I like good color, a full blown calibration takes far more time than anyone I have dealt with in 10 years has been willing to pay. Instead, I may AVIA or DVE the room, but that's about it.

I would say one of the best things you can do is go with a Blu-ray Disc player and a DVD player and go for the best results on both DVD and BD respectively.

At the end of the day 'mediocre' color blows away what we would typically have seen 7-10 years ago without a lot of CRT tweaking to get things right, but then the video source today always blows away what CRT was putting up.

Enjoy what you have first, be super critical of it second.

 

[fast1]

Enjoy what you have first, be super critical of it second.

this makes alot of sense when you think about it...

 

[jostenmeat]

There's a lot of good info. here already and realistically, while I like good color, a full blown calibration takes far more time than anyone I have dealt with in 10 years has been willing to pay. Instead, I may AVIA or DVE the room, but that's about it.

So, it's an hourly charge? How many hours to do the full-blown, and how much per hour? Not that I care, as obviously I'm not looking to pay someone for a calibration in my situation, just in case that was not absolutely clear.

Regardless, my questions were obviously pointed in the direction of learning for myself. Why would I ask about calibration courses?! I was thinking, wishfully perhaps, that a large sum in the beginning could pay for itself over the course of my lifetime. As for the difficuly in understanding how this is done, I do not know, and this is the reason I started this thread.

I would say one of the best things you can do is go with a Blu-ray Disc player and a DVD player and go for the best results on both DVD and BD respectively.

You are talking to someone who only has one display. No TV, no games, no HTPC, not even DVD. About 99% BD and 1% HDDVD.

At the end of the day 'mediocre' color blows away what we would typically have seen 7-10 years ago without a lot of CRT tweaking to get things right, but then the video source today always blows away what CRT was putting up.

I never said otherwise. Hell, my PJ blows away EVERYTHING! Nothing wrong with asking about what can further be done to tweak it. If nothing, so be it.

I just got talked into seeing Terminator last night. I go once a year, and was planning on "Up" for '09. Anyhoo, the digital DLP theater had a pretty good pic! Better than most other theaters. Almost as good as mine, though not quite IMO, but then again they had ambient lighting issues. Good LFE, plenty of midbass, but maybe to the point of masking the upper registers. Could be the listener position, at about 3/4 back, but I don't think so. Unfortunately, they leave the 6 sconce lights on. In fact, one of the regular bright lights just turned on halfway thru it, and since I felt like peeing anyways, I let them know, and also asked about the ambient lighting. My friends told me they actually dimmed the sconces some more and was wondering what I said to the employees.

Enjoy what you have first, be super critical of it second.

Name someone here at AH who is as excited about FP as me. During my adult years, I've probably lived without a TV for more years than with. I also used a pair of radio shack bookshelves for the better part of two decades, with a floor model cdp and amp (no pre/pro).

Seriously, how many times have I said that my pic is the most amazing that I, or anyone I know, has ever seen? Including a DGA film director and a former film audio production employee. I try not to brag toooo often, but I know for a fact I've said this on numerous occasions at this forum. I'm sure you must be at least somewhat familiar with my posting history.

Who else has tried convincing others in going with FP as often as I have?!?!?! LOL, IT'S AMAZING!!

But, ok, fine, maybe I should stop trying to learn about it. I will take from your post that it's simply not worth the money. Time, I'm not so worried about, because it's my present hobby. (Why else would I be such a regular at forums like this one?). I figured if I could learn anywhere, it would be at an AV forum.

 

[majorloser]

If all you're going to be calibrating is your personal flat panel displays, I'd probably just go for this:

http://spyder.datacolor.com/product-ht-s3tv.php

They make a "pro" version, but I wouldn't quite throw it into the same catagory of the stand alone colorimeters for front projection systems:

http://spyder.datacolor.com/product-ht-cfp.php

 

[majorloser]

Thanks bp. What about understanding service menus? (I will need to in order to take advantage of calibration software, right?). Should I contact JVC directly for advice on where to get training?

Service menus are BAD!!!

Forget they exist and don't monkey around in there. There are too many things you can do in there that can't be reversed without "bench time".

 

[BMXTRIX]

Regardless, my questions were obviously pointed in the direction of learning for myself. Why would I ask about calibration courses?! I was thinking, wishfully perhaps, that a large sum in the beginning could pay for itself over the course of my lifetime. As for the difficuly in understanding how this is done, I do not know, and this is the reason I started this thread.

Josten - What I'm really getting at is that this is a huge road to walk down. Even as an integrator and a person who has worked for about half a dozen different A/V companies, I have not been at one in which we have had an ISF certified tech nor top of the line calibration gear.

This is where your big personal decision comes into play, and should be even handedly considered against the viable alternatives such as the Spyder listed before this post.

Will you get better calibration using the Spyder? Most likely! Will it actually make your perceived image one bit better? Probably not.

Similarly, with $5K+ in test gear - will you get a more accurate image? Once again, probably. Will your perceived image be better? Probably not. Sure, it will have the Monster Cable effect for you, but beyond what amounts to potentially skewed perception of spending a fair bit of cash, it is not what I would consider worth it.

The Spyder is far more realistic for potential and long term use.

Yet, this is your road and adventure, and your decision.

http://www.imagingscience.com/seminars.cfm#dates

I would shoot to attend one of the ISF seminars and start looking at eBay and elsewhere for product if you want it and if you feel like your situation warrants it. The cost is significant, but you don't need to justify it to me at all, and I strongly encourage you to think about it and act upon it with a level head.

There may be some good reading for you here...
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/display-devices-tvs-projectors/280126-colorimeter-choose.html

I would say that the hard part may not be the gear, but getting the proper training - but you seem determined, so it is definitely available.

 

[Sherardp]

Also go here and get your read on, very good information here. They even post good information in regards to your very own projector. Very informative read, tells you how, what, when, where so you know you're in the right direction. It's definitely where I started. Not much you can do with the JVC RS1, greyscale is about it, not much in terms of color. But a very nice read. Check it out.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

 

[jostenmeat]

Josten - What I'm really getting at is that this is a huge road to walk down. Even as an integrator and a person who has worked for about half a dozen different A/V companies, I have not been at one in which we have had an ISF certified tech nor top of the line calibration gear.

Thanks for the forewarning. Your statement doesn't surprise me. I now have a few friends who are installers, and I always ask em if they do ISF or any pro level calibrations. The answer is always no.

Similarly, with $5K+ in test gear - will you get a more accurate image? Once again, probably. Will your perceived image be better? Probably not. Sure, it will have the Monster Cable effect for you, but beyond what amounts to potentially skewed perception of spending a fair bit of cash, it is not what I would consider worth it.

Yeah, thanks to Sherardp's link, I see that there are a number of price point levels to jump into. At least there are choices! lol. It seems that this site really doesn't like the Spyder at all, and certainly prefers the Eye-One stuff.

In fact, what do you think of these various packages? Know much about CalMan stuff?
http://www.curtpalme.com/CalMAN.shtm

Do I need an outboard video processor to use this stuff?

Yet, this is your road and adventure, and your decision.

http://www.imagingscience.com/seminars.cfm#dates

Thanks!! I'm not going to buy an airplane ticket to attend, unfortunately. Maybe next year will be closer. Hm. Phoenix is closest, but dunno...

There may be some good reading for you here...
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/display-devices-tvs-projectors/280126-colorimeter-choose.html

Thanks, I will get to this. For now, I'm going to start with the curt palme stuff.

I would say that the hard part may not be the gear, but getting the proper training - but you seem determined, so it is definitely available.

I think it would be fun to learn about the stuff. Eye opening perhaps. Confusing surely. Even if just to get my feet wet and appreciate how intimidating it may or may not be.

Also go here and get your read on, very good information here. They even post good information in regards to your very own projector. Very informative read, tells you how, what, when, where so you know you're in the right direction. It's definitely where I started. Not much you can do with the JVC RS1, greyscale is about it, not much in terms of color. But a very nice read. Check it out.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Thanks Sherardp. Could you describe in so many words how you went about attacking the calibration thing with your previous RS1? How different does it become with the RS10?

 

[Sherardp]

RS1 allows greyscale calibration, so you can use the Eyeone and software and do some what of a calibration there. The RS10 differs in that even though it lacks CMS you can at least use custom gamma curves, and perform grey calibration. They both have the over saturated colors, but my experience with both projectors have been quite pleasant with colors. The RS10 also allows custom color temp, I forget if the RS1 allows this. Definitely start with simple greyscale calibration and work you way through it. As long as you follow directions service menu access should be ok. Also see this post in regards to your PJ

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820233

 

[jostenmeat]

The RS10 also allows custom color temp, I forget if the RS1 allows this.

Not sure what you define as custom, but you can save two different settings. Otherwise, there are the presets of low, middle, and high.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820233

I will make the time to read these 33 pages, but I have no idea how much time that will take. Thanks.

 

[jostenmeat]

Ok, as I suspected, it's quite a learning curve. I'm starting to wonder about other possibilities that might give me improvement with much less pain involved.

OK, before I continue, it appears the main complaint, perhaps the ONLY complaint about the RS1 is the saturation. I've been calling it color accuracy, but I guess "saturation" makes it more specific. This is a function of luminance?

One culprit that actually comes to mind now is my bluray player, the Pana BD30. It has a much more saturated look than my Toshiba HDA35. I remembered that even if it passed all HQV tests in a shootout, that it was said to have the greatest shift in color points.

Is trying a new bdp a plausible way to reduce saturation?

I just re-downloaded the Value Electronics shootout/tests. With a feeble attempt to compare the different graphs of luminance, or CIE, or RGB tracking, or whatever, I am clueless on how I could pick a player with less saturation.

Another possibility that I've read of now, less than full blown CMS, is simply to have gamma adjustment. Interestingly, the VP, namely the gamma adjustment, in certain pre/pro's like the Anthem D2v is enough to make a few people pretty happy. Maybe I'll go bug Warpdrv again.

I suppose if I was to blow thousands of dollars, it could be nice to have the audio bonuses, as the better VPs' scaling, deinterlacing, and other particular adjustments are wasted on me.

I'm just trying to weigh the options.

Thanks for any thoughts, particularly on the idea of replacing the source disc player. I'm sure I'll add to my blog in the near future.

 

[Sherardp]

I would suggest you have your PJ calibrated and be done with it. It's not much you can do to the RS1 to tame color saturation. If you really want to tame the issue you're going to need a VP that offers CMS, Radiance or VP50 (Pro). I suggest you run DVE, use greyscale charts and work through them using the Eyeone or just let a tech handle it.

 

[jostenmeat]

I would suggest you have your PJ calibrated and be done with it.

The advice is appreciated.

It's not much you can do to the RS1 to tame color saturation. If you really want to tame the issue you're going to need a VP that offers CMS, Radiance or VP50 (Pro).

Yeah, I understand. That if one wants to fix it, one needs the CMS, simple. I have become, however, pretty darn curious about bdp saturation. I know most people would think, huh, but I'm telling you the saturation levels are very different between my two players. If I get 10% improvement for 10% of the costs, maybe that could satisfy me for another year or something. I'm not saying it's "true", but I do want to ask about it. I think I will shortly at AVS, perhaps in the bdp forum.

I suggest you run DVE, use greyscale charts and work through them using the Eyeone or just let a tech handle it.

Maybe I'll end up doing that one day.

Just curious, what do you know about the ability to tame saturation on the RS20 with the new FW?

 

[Sherardp]

JM, I can't offer you much in regards to the RS20 and that's just being honest with you. I have seen and spent some time with the RS20/HD750 a few times and can you tell you it leaves absolutely nothing to be desired. It's the PJ of PJs at it's price point. After that one would be considering DLP, like a Sim2 Lumis or something.

The hours I spent with it, I can tell you the CMS is very good, allowing you to tweak color until your hearts content. I just went in the menu to look around, also allowing you to set a custom gamma curve(RS10 also has this), and even more. I had my RS10 calibrated by AVS, custom color adjustment, gamma curve etc. The RS10 will give you more and will definitely give you a better image on that huge screen.

The RS1 is a good PJ, it was actually my first, but after trying to play with color saturation, and calibration it does make one wish for more control, at least with me. RS10/RS20 should resolve that for you, and wake you up a little once you see that sharper image.