Pioneer Splits from PAC, How Does this Affect Onkyo AVRs?

[gene]

Premium Audio Company (PAC), the parent company of audio brands Onkyo and Klipsch, has announced that its multiyear partnership with Pioneer Corporation’s home audio and home theater division will not be renewed. This “mutual decision” was revealed in an email to distributers and dealers. This concludes what has appeared to be a successful collaboration in licensing and marketing between the two companies. PAC was quick to clarify that the agreement never included Pioneer’s automotive, television, headphone, wireless audio, or professional sound products — only the company’s home AV gear (such as AV receivers), which had been licensed to Premium Audio Company and developed alongside models from Onkyo and Integra. Those other product categories will continue to be produced and sold by Pioneer Corporation or other Pioneer licensing partners. The announcement of the PAC/Pioneer split arrived soon after both entities were acquired by separate companies, both focused on automotive tech, rather than home AV tech.

What we can’t help but wonder is whether there will be a divergence between future Onkyo and Pioneer AVRs, which shared a common platform prior to the PAC split. Time will tell.

Read: Pioneer Splits from Premium Audio Company

 

[TLS Guy]

Premium Audio Company (PAC), the parent company of audio brands Onkyo and Klipsch, has announced that its multiyear partnership with Pioneer Corporation’s home audio and home theater division will not be renewed. This “mutual decision” was revealed in an email to distributers and dealers. This concludes what has appeared to be a successful collaboration in licensing and marketing between the two companies. PAC was quick to clarify that the agreement never included Pioneer’s automotive, television, headphone, wireless audio, or professional sound products — only the company’s home AV gear (such as AV receivers), which had been licensed to Premium Audio Company and developed alongside models from Onkyo and Integra. Those other product categories will continue to be produced and sold by Pioneer Corporation or other Pioneer licensing partners. The announcement of the PAC/Pioneer split arrived soon after both entities were acquired by separate companies, both focused on automotive tech, rather than home AV tech.

What we can’t help but wonder is whether there will be a divergence between future Onkyo and Pioneer AVRs, which shared a common platform prior to the PAC split. Time will tell.

View attachment 74266

Read: Pioneer Splits from Premium Audio Company

Everything going on right now, tells me their is not much money to be made in home AV, at least at lower price points.

The monopolies commission ongoing review of Harmon's purchase of Sound United adds another layer if uncertainty to the whole arena. The sooner this issue is decided the better. There should be a directive by the end of the year. It is anybody's guess how many DOGE fired from that commission.

There has never been a more uncertain time in the home AV industry.

I see layer upon layer of uncertainties. My advice is to look after your gear very, very carefully. My recent experience I regard as a real wake up call. Now more then ever, is the time to go for quality in your purchases and NOT the lowest price. I recently learned that the hard way.

 

[dlaloum]

The only area that I can imagine which will be impacted by the split is RoomEQ...

The merger of Pioneer with Onkyo/Integra some years back (10?) brought with it MCACC - which on the Onkyo/Integra gear got rebranded as "AccuEQ" - This happened at around the same time that Audyssey disappeared from Onkyo/Integra gear, and may also have coincided with the exclusive deal that Denon/Marantz made with Audyssey (which removed Audyssey as an option).

One wonders whether MCACC was one of the main motivators behind bringing Pioneer onboard?

In any case, now that PAC have licenced Dirac, and bundled it into their AVR's, the licence for MCACC becomes far less important.

The question will be, what happens with the mass-market value category, where Dirac is not an option, and the more basic versions of AccuEQ are used? - Will AccuEQ with its links to MCACC disappear altogether? Will Dirac be extended to cheaper models?

Lots of people don't even bother to try out AccuEQ, as they have Dirac and go straight to that - which in many cases is a shame, because AccuEQ/MCACC works very well, and is a lot easier to set up than Dirac.
It does a good job too! - I think ultimately, and for difficult situations, not as good as Dirac... but in perhaps 80% of setups, it is probably on a par.

 

[lovinthehd]

IIRC Pioneer had the actual Dirac rights, will PAC retain use of those?

 

[TLS Guy]

The only area that I can imagine which will be impacted by the split is RoomEQ...

The merger of Pioneer with Onkyo/Integra some years back (10?) brought with it MCACC - which on the Onkyo/Integra gear got rebranded as "AccuEQ" - This happened at around the same time that Audyssey disappeared from Onkyo/Integra gear, and may also have coincided with the exclusive deal that Denon/Marantz made with Audyssey (which removed Audyssey as an option).

One wonders whether MCACC was one of the main motivators behind bringing Pioneer onboard?

In any case, now that PAC have licenced Dirac, and bundled it into their AVR's, the licence for MCACC becomes far less important.

The question will be, what happens with the mass-market value category, where Dirac is not an option, and the more basic versions of AccuEQ are used? - Will AccuEQ with its links to MCACC disappear altogether? Will Dirac be extended to cheaper models?

Lots of people don't even bother to try out AccuEQ, as they have Dirac and go straight to that - which in many cases is a shame, because AccuEQ/MCACC works very well, and is a lot easier to set up than Dirac.
It does a good job too! - I think ultimately, and for difficult situations, not as good as Dirac... but in perhaps 80% of setups, it is probably on a par.

Dirac also has lousy bass management.

 

[lovinthehd]

Dirac also has lousy bass management.

Can you expand on that? Which particular versions of Dirac?

 

[TLS Guy]

Can you expand on that? Which particular versions of Dirac?

Unless things have changed it does not allow for LFE + Main. In other words you have to fully cross the bed layer speakers over and can't run them full range plus the subs.

I don't use Audyssey either to EQ my system, but I did check it on the AV 10 and this time Audyssey did not change my settings in any meaningful way, which surprised me. So the latest versions must be much improved over the others. Anyhow I don't have Audyssey engaged, as I don't need it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Unless things have changed it does not allow for LFE + Main. In other words you have to fully cross the bed layer speakers over and can't run them full range plus the subs.

I don't use Audyssey either to EQ my system, but I did check it on the AV 10 and this time Audyssey did not change my settings in any meaningful way, which surprised me. So the latest versions must be much improved over the others. Anyhow I don't have Audyssey engaged, as I don't need it.

You've just generally been behind on Audyssey developments/tools and assume same for Dirac. In other words, you don't really know or have the experience.

 

[TLS Guy]

You've just generally been behind on Audyssey developments/tools and assume same for Dirac. In other words, you don't really know or have the experience.

That may be, as I don't use it because I have no need of it. The system as I have set it up, has absolutely no need of any auto Eq whatsoever. All they could possibly offer is to muck the sound up.

 

[lovinthehd]

That may be, as I don't use it because I have no need of it. The system as I have set it up, has absolutely no need of any auto Eq whatsoever. All they could possibly offer is to muck the sound up.

Fair enough, but on the other hand limits your actual knowledge/experience.

 

[TLS Guy]

Fair enough, but on the other hand limits your actual knowledge/experience.

That is obviously true, but I'm glad I don't have to fuss about with it.

 

[dlaloum]

Unless things have changed it does not allow for LFE + Main. In other words you have to fully cross the bed layer speakers over and can't run them full range plus the subs.

I don't use Audyssey either to EQ my system, but I did check it on the AV 10 and this time Audyssey did not change my settings in any meaningful way, which surprised me. So the latest versions must be much improved over the others. Anyhow I don't have Audyssey engaged, as I don't need it.

That is not the case - the decision of where to route which channel, is made by the AVR / Decoder pairing, and depends on the options provided by the AVR/AVP manufacturer - Dirac does its thing on the resulting output.

I run my Integra DRX3.4 with Dirac Live, and use the Double Bass feature to do LFE+Main as I have full range speakers - very happy with the results...

 

[lovinthehd]

That is obviously true, but I'm glad I don't have to fuss about with it.

That's not really the point, though. Whether you feel you can benefit/fuss with it doesn't mean a lot. You've demonstrated this many times. You like what you like and believe in what you build, but that isn't particularly translatable....and who knows, someone might be able to improve your setup with such.

 

[TLS Guy]

That's not really the point, though. Whether you feel you can benefit/fuss with it doesn't mean a lot. You've demonstrated this many times. You like what you like and believe in what you build, but that isn't particularly translatable....and who knows, someone might be able to improve your setup with such.

They could make it worse. I think one of the big root causes of this whole room correction issue, is the age old full space/half space conundrum. I'm talking about baffle step compensation. My variable BSC was a big advance, as it is highly dependent on the room and especially the position of the speakers in the room.

The BSC settings of the speakers in my current room is very different from the settings in the previous room at the lake. This room required a big increase in BSC. That takes care of the major issue right at source.

If you heard this room, you would not want to touch a thing. I have been enjoying this year's Henry Wood Promenade concerts from RAH. The sound had been superb with the hall crammed to its 6,280 capacity audience night after night. These have another six weeks and day to run and the RAH will be filled to capacity night after night. One thing I do know, is that your groups would not fill it night after night, with a bunch of guitar twankers, drummers and people spitting into microphones. Groups of that ilk can fill it for a night if they are lucky, every now and again.

 

[highfigh]

Everything going on right now, tells me their is not much money to be made in home AV, at least at lower price points.

The monopolies commission ongoing review of Harmon's purchase of Sound United adds another layer if uncertainty to the whole arena. The sooner this issue is decided the better. There should be a directive by the end of the year. It is anybody's guess how many DOGE fired from that commission.

There has never been a more uncertain time in the home AV industry.

I see layer upon layer of uncertainties. My advice is to look after your gear very, very carefully. My recent experience I regard as a real wake up call. Now more then ever, is the time to go for quality in your purchases and NOT the lowest price. I recently learned that the hard way.

Define "not much money" and who are you referring to, as customers for this kind of equipment? There are many aspects to it- online sales, the remaining B&M stores, independent AV dealers/installers, larger custom integrators and anaything in between the last two. Some of this equipment is used in bars/restaurants, schools, churches, retail locations and social spots. Some of it is more industrial/commercial, but consumer gear works well in many projects. Some of it is absolute crap, but it still sells and some of it works for a long time.

I'm seeing that people want to simplify- I'm working for a past customer who's using smart TVs, no AVR, some speakers driven by one stereo receiver (I want to add an amplifier for some zones) and a Sonos PlayBar in one room. It all uses the home network, no universal remotes and a couple of apps (HEOS, for the stereo receiver). Other past customers replace equipment as needed, but some of them are going back to simplicity, too- some installed a home theater for the kids and family enjoyment, but most were never into high end. Still, this stuff needs to be installed and set up, which most people don't want to do for themselves.

A lot of people made a lot of money in the markets, their pay increased and they can afford to replace equipment- for them, they didn't spend as much as the Marantz that you had and the AV-10, so equipment failure is more of an annoyance than anything. People who don't make much still buy smart TVs in large numbers and for them, it's a good thing prices have come down. As an example- my 32" TV stopped working, so I went to Beast Buy to see what they had. Originally, I found one that includes Roku, for about $89. Ridiculous, right? I went back and that one was gone, they didn't have anything at that price, so I walked to the open box shelf- found an Insignia Fire TV for about $62 plus tax. If someone wants a TV that does what it can, why do they need to call someone like me, other than for setup? In that case, they can ask one of their kids.

The market is definitely changing and the geeks caused it, but the MBAs caused reliability to become the elephant in the room. I guess they can tell people "Yeah it's crap, but it's cheap".

According to the Statista link, US consumer electronics revenue is still counted as many billions of dollars.

The link shows positive growth forcast 2023-2030, but there's more to it than just one link.

Audio Systems Market Size, Share & Forecast Analysis 2024 – 2032

Audio systems market size was valued at USD 33.4 billion in 2023 and is anticipated to grow at a CAGR of over 5.5% between 2024 and 2032, driven by increasing consumer spendings.

www.gminsights.com

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

According to the Statista link, US consumer electronics revenue is still counted as many billions of dollars.

Is that like 80% Soundbars & TVs, 19% AVRs, and 1% Separates?

 

[TLS Guy]

Define "not much money" and who are you referring to, as customers for this kind of equipment? There are many aspects to it- online sales, the remaining B&M stores, independent AV dealers/installers, larger custom integrators and anaything in between the last two. Some of this equipment is used in bars/restaurants, schools, churches, retail locations and social spots. Some of it is more industrial/commercial, but consumer gear works well in many projects. Some of it is absolute crap, but it still sells and some of it works for a long time.

I'm seeing that people want to simplify- I'm working for a past customer who's using smart TVs, no AVR, some speakers driven by one stereo receiver (I want to add an amplifier for some zones) and a Sonos PlayBar in one room. It all uses the home network, no universal remotes and a couple of apps (HEOS, for the stereo receiver). Other past customers replace equipment as needed, but some of them are going back to simplicity, too- some installed a home theater for the kids and family enjoyment, but most were never into high end. Still, this stuff needs to be installed and set up, which most people don't want to do for themselves.

A lot of people made a lot of money in the markets, their pay increased and they can afford to replace equipment- for them, they didn't spend as much as the Marantz that you had and the AV-10, so equipment failure is more of an annoyance than anything. People who don't make much still buy smart TVs in large numbers and for them, it's a good thing prices have come down. As an example- my 32" TV stopped working, so I went to Beast Buy to see what they had. Originally, I found one that includes Roku, for about $89. Ridiculous, right? I went back and that one was gone, they didn't have anything at that price, so I walked to the open box shelf- found an Insignia Fire TV for about $62 plus tax. If someone wants a TV that does what it can, why do they need to call someone like me, other than for setup? In that case, they can ask one of their kids.

The market is definitely changing and the geeks caused it, but the MBAs caused reliability to become the elephant in the room. I guess they can tell people "Yeah it's crap, but it's cheap".

According to the Statista link, US consumer electronics revenue is still counted as many billions of dollars.

The link shows positive growth forcast 2023-2030, but there's more to it than just one link.

Audio Systems Market Size, Share & Forecast Analysis 2024 – 2032

Audio systems market size was valued at USD 33.4 billion in 2023 and is anticipated to grow at a CAGR of over 5.5% between 2024 and 2032, driven by increasing consumer spendings.

www.gminsights.com

I am sure it is. However, the development costs of receivers, AVPs, power amps, and even speakers is high. You know that the sales potential of those items is nowhere near as high as for TVs Soundbars, computers and mobile phones. Those items have the lions share of the market. You really can't exist any longer without IT connectivity at home and on the move. Going without those in this day and age is analogous to being a cave dweller.

Every home you enter has a TV and most a sound bar now, and usually more then one computer around.
What you very seldom see is speakers other than Alexa, which seems common round here. And from my observations AVPs, and AVRs and separate speakers are an extreme rarity.

My point is that the profit/development, marketing ratio of these items is marginal or even negative compared to the other items. I do fear that the electronic giants will consider this market not worth the trouble. Funnily enough I think the lower end of this market will suffer the most, and I think this trend has begun. The reason is that those that really want this gear will pay for it if they have the money. I think you can already see a trend to this, with the higher end offerings like the AV 10 and AV 20. At the same time I think I detect a trend to a reduction in offerings at the lower end, especially in the electronics.