5.1 system with 4ohm Dynaudio speakers.

[Lordoftherings]

Gorman, the 3808 is a very fine receiver with all the test bench top notch. It gots all the guts of a true champ. You cannot make a mistake.

As for separates, you just don't need it in your case, so why even bother?

If I was you, I will buy the 3808 first thing in the morning.

Ta-li-da-di-da-li-da... (You know who.)

Bobino

 

[gorman]

Is there anyone who could tell me how the amp specs of the 3808 compare to those of my current Onkyo?

If it's not a significant step ahead, I might really consider going for a pre/pro, to upgrade later to separate amp. My Onkyo has the necessary 5.1 analog inputs.

Although I can't find a pre/pro with all the new decoders and features found in Denons, Onkyos, Yamahas, etc. Am I looking at the wrong brands?

 

[lsiberian]

I've looked up your amp and must suggest you not upgrade. Your current amp is good enough.

What you have is good enough for your system. IMO. Unless you just don't like it. That's a very nice receiver you have.

Save your money HDMI isn't that big of an upgrade and can often be more of a pain than a blessing. In your situation I would stick to toslink and not worry about getting caught up in gimmickry. I know the newest formats have great names and nice sound, but it's not worth the cost for you in your situation. If you really want HDMI. You might try an HDMI switch combined with an HDMI decoder. This would let you use your receivers analog inputs with most HDMI sources.

 

[gorman]

I don't see what a good choice for an HDMI decoder + HDMI switch could be. Did you have anything specific in mind?

Also, are you saying that the amp section of my receiver is on par with what 3808 has to offer (7.1 aside, which I can't setup anyway)?

 

[lsiberian]

I don't see what a good choice for an HDMI decoder + HDMI switch could be. Did you have anything specific in mind?

Also, are you saying that the amp section of my receiver is on par with what 3808 has to offer (7.1 aside, which I can't setup anyway)?

Ambery sells a decoder, but I've never tested it. Seeing as your in Italy maybe you can find something comparable there.

Most certainly. Your receiver is no slouch.

Also HDMI audio is overrated IMO. Just stick with the digital coaxial and only pass video via HDMI. HDMI has problems with most devices other than the blu-ray player. I figure in 3 or 4 years they will have solved these problems, The difference isn't worth your paying 100s of dollars. This isn't an upgrade really. For the price you could buy a nice amp. and use your receiver as a pre-pro. That would be an upgrade. The new receiver wouldn't be IMO.

If you already have your speakers and subs. And play below -10db. I would just save the money for a rainy day. No need to upgrade before you really will benefit. Besides technology changes so rapidly in 5 years they may have a whole new cable.

 

[gorman]

The problem is that I do want HDMI switching, Dolby Headphone, Audissey room correction, HD formats decoding (they are over rated I'm 100% sure, but call it peace of mind). And I can't find a pre/pro that offers that. Am I missing something?

 

[Lordoftherings]

The problem is that I do want HDMI switching, Dolby Headphone, Audissey room correction, HD formats decoding (they are over rated I'm 100% sure, but call it peace of mind). And I can't find a pre/pro that offers that. Am I missing something?

So, what is exactly what you're looking for Gorman?

I am getting a little confused here.

Oh, and by the way, you were previously asking about measurements done on the Denon AVR-3808ci.

Just look at Home Theater Mag, you'll find a review of the Denon AVR-3805 with the same almost power supply (7.2A vs 7.1A). There is also a review of the 3805 at Audioholics. Another one at Sound & vision Mag. And there are several more all over.
Check also the review of the Denon AVR-3806 at Sound & Vision Mag.

For your information, both the 3805 and the 3806 delivers 125 watts in 5 channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads at 1% THD, which is probably the same as the 3808ci. And this is very powerful indeed.
The 3806 delivers 110 watts in 6 channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads at 0.3% THD.
And both (3805 & 3806) delivers 155/225 watts into 8 & 4-ohm loads with 2 channels driven at 0.3% THD. And at 1% THD, the numbers are 165 watts (8ohms) and 245 watts (4ohms).
And all other figures for S/N, THD+N, Crosstalk, Linearity, etc., are absolutely first rate, at the very top of what is achievable.

Is Denon, Onkyo & Marantz available in Italy? Yes they are.
You don't want the Onkyo TX-NR906 because it does not have Dolby Headphone.
The Marantz SR8002, only have Audyssey MultEQ, it is missing the XT, and cannot superimpose Audyssey on top of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA, only on top of PCM decoded new high res. audio codecs.
And the Denon AVR-3808ci is the last remaining one with everything you want and more.

*Hint -> The 3808ci.*

Now, you are contemplating separates, even if you don't have the room...

The best pre/pro for the money is the Onkkyo Pro PR-SC885P.
If you want a pre/pro with more than the 885, you have to go with the Denon AVP-A1HDci, which retails for a very cool $7,500 USA.
The best amp for the money in Italy is: you tell me...

But if you want Peace of mind, get the Denon POA-A1HDci 10-channel power amp with it's brother the AVP-A1HDci surround processor.

What's wrong with your Onkyo TX-DS797?

Cheers,

Bob

P.S. Me, I got my Peace of mind already with my Onkyo TX-SR876, but I don't have Dolby Headphone, which is fine by me, because I give up headphone listening about 20 years ago. And did you recently learn about the damage created by headphone listening?
Yep, you do have to turn down the level considerably to protect your hearing.

 

[gorman]

Hi Lord! Don't get upset. I know I'm confused, I'd be the first one to admit it. The separates thing was mainly curiosity which arose from several posts suggesting that road. And I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, if the amp section of my TX-DS797 was good enough I could have saved money by not buying what I already have.

What's wrong with the TX-DS797? No HDMI inputs (lots of cables clutter I could honestly do without), no Dolby Headphone (and yes, I know everything there is to know about hearing damage, suggested SPL levels, tinnitus, really I know), no room correction algorithms that considering this is a living room (hence not too treatable for WAF) I suspect might come in handy, no HD formats decoding (no big fan, but on the other hand why not?).

Regarding the measurements, unfortunately I'm not technical enough to read them and understand them. Mainly I'd like to understand if the TX-DS797 I currently own has already a comparable amp section, in reference to the 3808.

Let me try, anyway. Do I get things correctly if I compare the TX-DS797 2×210 watts at 4 ohms with 0.08% THD to the 3806 2x225W with 0.03% THD? Being ignorant I would be inclined they are not too distant. Would this be a bad reading of the data?

 

[PENG]

Hi Lord! Don't get upset. I know I'm confused, I'd be the first one to admit it. The separates thing was mainly curiosity which arose from several posts suggesting that road. And I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, if the amp section of my TX-DS797 was good enough I could have saved money by not buying what I already have.

What's wrong with the TX-DS797? No HDMI inputs (lots of cables clutter I could honestly do without), no Dolby Headphone (and yes, I know everything there is to know about hearing damage, suggested SPL levels, tinnitus, really I know), no room correction algorithms that considering this is a living room (hence not too treatable for WAF) I suspect might come in handy, no HD formats decoding (no big fan, but on the other hand why not?).

Regarding the measurements, unfortunately I'm not technical enough to read them and understand them. Mainly I'd like to understand if the TX-DS797 I currently own has already a comparable amp section, in reference to the 3808.

Let me try, anyway. Do I get things correctly if I compare the TX-DS797 2×210 watts at 4 ohms with 0.08% THD to the 3806 2x225W with 0.03% THD? Being ignorant I would be inclined they are not too distant. Would this be a bad reading of the data?

I am guessing but I am pretty sure the "Lord" don't get upset that easily. He has always been helpful around here and very thorough in his research of available info.

I read the specs of the 797 and I can tell you if Onkyo and Denon are truthful with their specs (I believe they are), then the amp sections between the 797 and 3808 are very comparable. Surely the 3808 has a slight edge in terms of being a little more powerful and perhaps offering lower distortion levels, but not enough to make any audible difference.

If you are happy with the sound quality you are getting from the Onkyo, you will be happy with the 3808. Why not just go for it and if you need more power down the load you can easily add a couple of ugly pro amps or Outlaw monoblocks for the front channels and hide them anyway on the floor behind your rack.

 

[gorman]

Yeah, the 3808 is looking more and more like the right "compromise" in everything.

Now I wait with bated breath for the all-disrupting info that will throw this to the ground

Actually, the announcement of new models is close enough.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Yeah, the 3808 is looking more and more like the right "compromise" in everything.

Now I wait with bated breath for the all-disrupting info that will throw this to the ground

Actually, the announcement of new models is close enough.

Lol, Gorman, Peng is right, I never get upset here at Audioholics. How could I, with all such very nice people. This is probably the most peaceful site of the entire internet.

As for the new models from Denon, I will not hold my breath.
Actually it is very good in your favor, because it just further decreases the price of the 3808ci, which is the one that you should get in my sincere opinion. It is below $999 now at certain places.

The true replacement for the 3808ci is the 4310ci, which retail for $2,000.
The 3808ci is the much better deal and might get even better as time pass, but make sure you don't miss the boat though, if you know what I mean.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[gorman]

Wow, Lord... I was almost all set up to go with the 3808 when I discovered that, contrary to all I was led to believe, it does *not* feature Dolby Headphone. Damn... ((

What can I do... that's a really important feature for me. It's my only chance at getting some quality gaming now that my daughter is with us

Harman Kardon, Marantz, Yamaha (Silent Cinema)... Denon 5808 (really over my budget and not available in Italy anyway?

HK does not seem to offer enough power, not even in their top model. This leaves me with Marantz and Yamaha. Marantz does not have Audissey XT, Yamaha has its own proprietary stuff...

Am I missing a good AV receiver with Dolby Headphone? Kinda desperate at the moment.

 

[PENG]

Am I missing a good AV receiver with Dolby Headphone? Kinda desperate at the moment.

Seems that way unless you can do without the "XT" thing. By the way, some of the HK models are quite powerful. If you like them, search for lab measurements from places like HomeCinemachoice, S&V, HT mag etc., you can't go by their published specs only. If you are willing to pay, you don't have to go all the way to the top Denon model, the 5308 has all the feature you want. You may find some affordable used ones.
Do keep in mind that it weighs over 60 lbs.

 

[gorman]

Lordoftherings, if I get what you are saying correctly, do you have a good opinion of the RX-V3900? Would that be a step down in sound quality compared to my current Onkyo? Is the Yamaha room correction function a good one, on par with Audissey? What do you all think?

Sorry... just when the 3808 seemed the right choice...

Thanks Peng, I'll check further into HK.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Lordoftherings, if I get what you are saying correctly, do you have a good opinion of the RX-V3900? Would that be a step down in sound quality compared to my current Onkyo? Is the Yamaha room correction function a good one, on par with Audissey? What do you all think?

Sorry... just when the 3808 seemed the right choice...

Thanks Peng, I'll check further into HK.

WoW! You got me on the 3808ci, no Dolby headphone!

OK, recap now; no Onkyo TX-NR906, no Denon AVR-3808ci. Forget about Harman Kardon. So now, we are left with Marantz SR6003, SR7002, SR8002 and Yamaha RX-V3900 or RX-Z7 (but the RX-Z7 retails for a cool $2,700 USA).

I'll be very frank with you, personally I will pick the Marantz SR6003.
Because it is a beauty, it has the best sound, it still has Audyssey MultEQ (not XT though), it has excellent power bench test (96 watts times 7 channels into 8-ohm loads at 0.3% THD), it has Dolby headphone (for sure), it sells for $700 US street price, it has 3 HDMI inputs and 2 outs, and it just plainly a MARANTZ receiver, quality made and reliability of sound quality.

Now, the Yamaha RX-V3900 is selling for about $1,200 cdn (not sure of the US street price), it uses the YPAO (a less sophisticated room EQ, only Parametric), it has very similar power than the Marantz SR6003, it has more features oriented on the interface with internet and various type of radios, it has a better video processor than the SR6003, it has also 2 HDMI outputs, it can output video through HDMI without the receiver even turn on, like the SR6003 it has preouts for all channels, like the SR6003, it has great reviews and it is a nice looking Yamaha receiver with good build quality and good sound too.

By the way, the Marantz SR7002 is also selling for $700 USA, and it is a very nice receiver too, older perhaps, but still very good nonetheless. It adds THX Select2, 4 HDMI inputs and still 2 HDMI outputs. Power wise, it is the same as the SR6003 (just a tiny less), and closer to the 3900.

OK, I have to stop here, because I can go on and on. But I want to keep your options open, even after telling you my own personal choice.
But any of these three will make you happy.

Any Pioneer Elites in Italy? I don't even know if they have Dolby headphone.

Anyway, I hope this helps in your choice. And if you have any further questions, don't hesitate.

Till then take good care,

Bob

 

[gorman]

Wow Bob, you really are some kind "light at the end of the tunnel" here, thank you so much. The tunnel is long, but still it helps!

Now... from what I know Pioneers do not offer Dolby Headphone (damn, if I think of the hundreds of different decoders these things have onboard, couldn't they make the damn DH standard! ).

What throws me off is you suggesting the Marantz 6003 over the 7002 or the 8002. I thought the order was 8, 7, 6 in the quality range.

Do you think YPAO is less sophisticated even of Audissey MultiEQ (non XT)?

Also, I have the cabinet problem for heat related stuff, so kinda scared about the RX-Z7 and NR906 (which forgetting the Dolby Headphone stuff really seems like the best of the bunch).

Edit: if I'm not mistaken you are French. Do you know anybody Europe based that bought stuff from Emotiva?

Edit 2: http://www.marantz.com/new/index.cfm?fuseaction=Products.ProdSpecs&cont=eu&bus=hf&prod_id=3794&type=avr&series=comp the 6003 does not offer Dolby Headphone... I'm a lost cause.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Wow Bob, you really are some kind "light at the end of the tunnel" here, thank you so much. The tunnel is long, but still it helps!

Now... from what I know Pioneers do not offer Dolby Headphone (damn, if I think of the hundreds of different decoders these things have onboard, couldn't they make the damn DH standard! ).

What throws me off is you suggesting the Marantz 6003 over the 7002 or the 8002. I thought the order was 8, 7, 6 in the quality range.

Do you think YPAO is less sophisticated even of Audissey MultiEQ (non XT)?

Also, I have the cabinet problem for heat related stuff, so kinda scared about the RX-Z7 and NR906 (which forgetting the Dolby Headphone stuff really seems like the best of the bunch).

Edit: if I'm not mistaken you are French. Do you know anybody Europe based that bought stuff from Emotiva?

Edit 2: http://www.marantz.com/new/index.cfm?fuseaction=Products.ProdSpecs&cont=eu&bus=hf&prod_id=3794&type=avr&series=comp the 6003 does not offer Dolby Headphone... I'm a lost cause.

OK, Pioneer Elite is also dead, so is the Marantz SR6003.

And no the quality between the SR6003, SR7002 & SR8002 is similar, the main difference is with the higher numbers you generally pay more money for what is now becoming superfluous. The SR6003 is very comparable with the SR7002, only you can make the final decision, the 6003 weights 29.1 lbs and the SR7002 (and SR8002) weights 33.1 lbs. Is this tell you about the quality?
The SR6003 retails for $1,100, the 7002 for $1,400 and the 8002 for $2,000.
If you got a good deal for the 8002, go for it, it is an Audiophile receiver.
So, I do recommend you to get the Marantz SR8002.

And yes, I prefer Audyssey MultEQ over YPAO, period!

The RX-Z7 does run hot, same as the TX-NR906. Of course, my 1st choice is the 906, but you knew that already. I just try to accomodate your feature's list, that's all, like your sweet little daughter (seems like that she will like Dolby headphone). See, I keep track of my clients.

Yes, I am French, but from Quebec. But I am also a member of few audio forums from France.
And no, I don't know of the availability of Emotiva products in Italy or in France or Netherlands or Great Britain or any other part of the UK. But I can find out, because I also speak a litte Italian, I grew up around Montreal, and I learn Latin in school for 5 years, and I also travel in Mexico, Guatemala and El Salvador. So, I can get along with Italian, Spanish and Mexican too.

But being frank with you, as always, I will say that you don't need an external amp with the receivers here that we're talking about, unless you live in a Mansion and that you enjoy very loud music or movies. Do you now?

Ok, I'm not too sure what I can add to what I already add.

#1 = Onkyo TX-NR906 (only missing Dolby headphone).
#2 = Marantz SR8002.
#3 = Yamaha RX-V3900 or RX-Z7 (if money is there).

Do you enjoy reading reviews of receivers? Can you catch a bit of German language?
About a German review that does a Master Test between 4 top notch receivers? Like the Onkyo TX-NR906, the Yamaha RX-V3900, the Pioneer Elite SC-07 (LX81 in Germany) and the Sony ES STR-DA5400ES?
Interested? Click here: http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2009/av_receiver_mastertest_6.shtml

Another one (in English this time) on the Onkyo TX-NR906 can be found by clicking here: http://www.hometheaterreview.com/equipment-reviews/video-reviews/av-receiver-reviews/onkyo_tx-nr906_receiver_reviewed003135.php

About the Marantz SR8002?
Here: http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/508mar8002/
And here: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/receivers/297-a-secrets-receivers-review.html

Yamaha RX-V3900?
Here: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/receivers/626-yamaha-rx-v3900.html
And here: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/3102/yamaha-rx-v3900-av-receiver.html

Pioneer Elite SC-07? One is right here at Audioholics, I'm sure you know how to find it.
Another one: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/3042/pioneer-elite-sc-07-av-receiver.html

Marantz SR-7002?
Here: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/receivers/487-a-secrets-receiver-review.html
And here: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2753/marantz-sr7002-av-receiver.html

The Yamaha RX-Z7?
There is also one right here (quite positive) at Audioholics by the master himself, Gene.

If you need more, I can provide you with. But it will also help that you just Google the brands and models that you are mostly interested in. And I don't want to freak you out with some that are only technical, describing all the inside parts with their serial numbers.

It is very ironic that such a small detail like Dolby Headphone is influencing your final decision, but at each their own tastes. I'll respect that, for the sake of your daughter.
By the way say HI to her from LOTR.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[gorman]

Thanks for all the time. Yes I do like reading reviews, thx for the links.

Also, my father lives in Toronto... not too far from you.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Thanks for all the time. Yes I do like reading reviews, thx for the links.

Also, my father lives in Toronto... not too far from you.

Cool Gorman, I'm glad, at least my time is well spent, you'll be able to read some of these reviews about all these great receivers.

Of course Toronto, that use to be my next neighbour city.

Happy reading, and keep in touch with your latest discoveries.

And take your time with deep analysis of all the features, etc.

And for further help, always go to the web site of each of these manufacturers.

And you know what Gorman, no matter which receiver you end up choosing, in the end you'll end up with the one you like.
And you cannot go wrong with these models that we're talking about here from all these reliable companies; Marantz, Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo (or Integra) and Pioneer Elite.
I have very similar tastes than you, I always pick the second one from the flagship model (around the $2,000 price range). And I personally owned all these brands and still own them, plus few other brands. I'm a mid-fi kind of guy. $5,000 for a receiver is not really my cup of tea, when receivers improved every year with newer features. And my mid-fi priced receivers sound to me like high end anyway. That's what I think of the Marantz SR8002(& SR7002 & SR6003), the Onkyo TX-NR906 (& TX-SR876 & TX-SR805), the Yamaha RX-Z7 (& RX-V3900), the Denon AVR-4808ci (& AVR-4308ci & AVR-3808ci), the Pioneer Elite SC-07 (& SC-05) and Integra DTR-9.9 (& DTR-8.9 & DTR-7.8). That's my range of receivers, the ones that I studied the most, because the're the ones that I personally pick for myself.

But I do check all the rest for their respective value in their own range, from the very low at $200 to the very high at $7,000.

And I like stuff that goes to the 10 million dollars range too.
And I ain't kidding either.

AUDIO is definitively a big part of my life for over 40 years now, and even more if I include my youth spent listening to records on my Mom's turntable and my uncle's turntable too, which is a professional singer and musician.
I am also a musician for over 40 years. So I can easily say, that Music has always been around in my life for over 50 years.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[gorman]

Very interesting and in depth comparison on the German site. That could go a long way toward some peace of mind in choosing Yamaha. At the end of the day it appears to be the only choice.

I've only got some doubts regarding Marantz, they offer Dolby Headphone, they are supposed to be very good amplifiers... but then if I look at weight, even the 8002 seems to be lightweight compared to the Yamahas (either the 3900 or the Z7). 15Kg for the 8802, 17,4 for the 3900, 19,4 for the Z7.

Isn't that a telltale sign of quality of amplification?