Attack of the Clone Amplifiers

[dsonic]

Your correct Dsonic. Now, how is it that your outfit complies with both?

Chu Gai,

Thank you for promoting us from an audio company to an outfit. So few out there realize the additional prestige that an outfit brings to the table.

To answer your question:

1) We have no intention of measuring our amplifiers by the present FTC protocols at this time for reasons already stated. I believe the FTC eventually will realize that a new technology will be required to objectively measure class D amplifiers. THX has already done this with their stamp of approval on the new Pioneer receivers using ICEpower technology that do not meet FTC protocols. This entire FTC issue has nothing to do with compliance of US law unless you lie about your amplifier capabilities when saying they do what they do. We clearly state that we do not comply with their power measurement technology.

2) Our units have been tested in RFI/EMI chambers (check the photo section on our website) and we have learned a lot about this. We now make this a priority in our finished product. At some point we will submit our products for testing by the FCC.

Regards,

Dennis
d-sonic.net

 

[Chu Gai]

Chu Gai,

Thank you for promoting us from an audio company to an outfit. So few out there realize the additional prestige that an outfit brings to the table.

To answer your question:

1) We have no intention of measuring our amplifiers by the present FTC protocols at this time for reasons already stated. I believe the FTC eventually will realize that a new technology will be required to objectively measure class D amplifiers. THX has already done this with their stamp of approval on the new Pioneer receivers using ICEpower technology that do not meet FTC protocols. This entire FTC issue has nothing to do with compliance of US law unless you lie about your amplifier capabilities when saying they do what they do. We clearly state that we do not comply with their power measurement technology.

2) Our units have been tested in RFI/EMI chambers (check the photo section on our website) and we have learned a lot about this. We now make this a priority in our finished product. At some point we will submit our products for testing by the FCC.

Regards,

Dennis
d-sonic.net

Indeed, one must choose the appropriate outfit for the occasion

1)If we cut to the chase, the reason you don't want to measure according to FTC protocols are similar to those voiced by NAD years ago which had largely to do with both their soft clipping and ability to deliver substantially more power under dynamic situations. In the end you could indeed measure according to FTC protocols but then you'd have to rate your power like everyone else does. In other words, the product inherits a certain gravitas by saying it's 1000 watts as opposed to 150 watts. Put more bluntly it sells better. Also Pioneer's receivers do seems to play by existing FTC rules. If you've information to the contrary, perhaps you can provide a link or two.

The FTC issue has to do with compliance to existing regulations which by your statement above, you have indicated that you have no intentions of following. You can wish and hypothesize all you want but until such time as the FTC changes things (they do solicit comments from interested parties), this is the way the game is played.

2)AFAIK, in order for the products to be legally sold, they must be tested in some fashion. The FCC appears to be fairly lenient and forgiving in this area but they won't tolerate people doing nothing. As it stands presently, it seems you're in violation of this too so I hope your testing moves along successfully. The ICE folks made this pretty easy considering their modules have already been tested, however as I'm sure you know, it's the finished product that needs to be tested. BTW, what will you do if existing products that have been made fail? How will consumers be able to make their units compliant?

 

[cfrizz]

Oh good grief! I don't give a rats behind about the FCC, FTC or any other government regulators who are so far behind the times that they are useless.

All I want is a powerful, lightweight 5-7 channel amplifier that will drive all of my speakers to their full potential.

If Ice Power achieves this then I'm all for it. However, I am not willing to pay an arm & leg for a fancy box by some "name" that simply threw someone else's chip into it & calls it new & improved!

And since that seems to be the case right now, I will happily stick with my 43lb Sunfire!

 

[Dan Banquer]

Quote from D Sonic.

"If you look at page 6 of the data sheet referenced in the article you will note in the first row of the Audio Specifications (Po = power out) that by class D standards the 1000ASP does indeed meet its requirements for the 10HZ to 20KHZ bandwidth at 525W/8ohm and 1100W/4ohm.

If you look at page 14 on the linked spec sheet it appears to say something quite different.

In any case the unit certainly looks to be a very useful and inexpensive subwoofer amp, with enough power in that range to send woofer cones flying out of the enclosure. Should people wear hardhats or welding head gear when listening at extremely high levels?
d.b.

 

[Cavediver]

In any case the unit certainly looks to be a very useful and inexpensive subwoofer amp, with enough power in that range to send woofer cones flying out of the enclosure. Should people wear hardhats or welding head gear when listening at extremely high levels?
d.b.

The D-Sonic IcePower amps are far more than subwoofer amps. I've had a D-Sonic 2000-5 paired up with an Integra 9.8 powering a pair of Dali Helicon 400 L & R, Dali Helicon C-200 Center and a pair of Paradigm AMS-150Rs for surrounds for over 1.5 years. The SVS PB12 Plus/2 sub has its own built in amp. I don't think you can beat the sound or performance for both music and theater. To test the capabilities of the amp and speakers, I've had the volume up to 107db, measured by Ratshack spl meter, without the slightest bit of audible distortion in any of the frequencies.

 

[Lordoftherings]

To answer the above questions I would recommend that you pay attention to the data sheets linked to theis article. Please pay close attention to the frequency response vs. phase graphs.

I have read this article a couple of times and I find myself still LMAO.
d.b.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what LMAO stands for?

Bob

 

[rmk]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what LMAO stands for?

Bob

In this particular case it stands for Large Man Acting Out.

 

[Cavediver]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what LMAO stands for? Bob

Laughing my a_s_s off.

 

[dsonic]

1000ASP power rating

If you look at page 14 on the linked spec sheet it appears to say something quite different.

Dan,

I believe the page 6 entry regards the playing of real music and page 14 a DC sinewave. The Zobel output network and the HF filter both prevent the 1000ASP module from performing any differently than the page 14 graphs indicate. I will check with our technical contact at B&O to see if they can clarify any part of this. Response should be sometime next week.

Dennis
d-sonic.net

 

[bandphan]

I think a lot of folks are missing that under realistic conditions these amps perform as stated. IIRC Gene has stated the same.

 

[Dan Banquer]

If you look at page 14 on the linked spec sheet it appears to say something quite different.

Dan,

I believe the page 6 entry regards the playing of real music and page 14 a DC sinewave. The Zobel output network and the HF filter both prevent the 1000ASP module from performing any differently than the page 14 graphs indicate. I will check with our technical contact at B&O to see if they can clarify any part of this. Response should be sometime next week.

Dennis
d-sonic.net

Thank you Dennis; If you feel up to the task you may wish to try testing impulse response from 500 Hz to 2 KHz at different power levels and compare that to a reasonably well designed linear amp. I would expect to see major differences between the two in time domain.
d.b.

 

[PaulF]

1) We have no intention of measuring our amplifiers by the present FTC protocols at this time for reasons already stated. I believe the FTC eventually will realize that a new technology will be required to objectively measure class D amplifiers. THX has already done this with their stamp of approval on the new Pioneer receivers using ICEpower technology that do not meet FTC protocols. This entire FTC issue has nothing to do with compliance of US law unless you lie about your amplifier capabilities when saying they do what they do. We clearly state that we do not comply with their power measurement technology.

2) Our units have been tested in RFI/EMI chambers (check the photo section on our website) and we have learned a lot about this. We now make this a priority in our finished product. At some point we will submit our products for testing by the FCC.

Regards,

Dennis
d-sonic.net

Dennis, I think the ICE specs speak for themselves, however as a system integrator, I think you have some responsibility to provide specs for the finished product.

Your site mentions you provide a 20A power cord for all 5-7 channel amps. Does this imply a 20A circuit should be used? What is the performance of the multi-channel amps when all channels are being driven? Some manufacturers state all channels driven, others have one channel rated at full power while the remaining are at 1/8th power. You only provide the single module spec from B&O. You referenced Pioneer in one of your posts. If you go to their website you will see they are very specific about the number of channels driven for a specific rated power

Also what is the inter-channel cross talk? This spec is very implementation specific and could never be provided by B&0 (for monoblock modules).

I think you dismiss the FCC compliance too easily. It is a well known fact that a module that passes in open space may not when placed in a perforated metal box. This problem can be greatly exacerbated when using multiple modules. Who do customers turn to if their FM receivers, cordless phones or RF remotes start having problems? If you were importing these amps as a finished product rather than the individual ICE modules, Customs would require that you comply with FCC part 15 and could back it up with a certification from an independent lab.

 

[Cavediver]

Dennis, I think the ICE specs speak for themselves, however as a system integrator, I think you have some responsibility to provide specs for the finished product.

Your site mentions you provide a 20A power cord for all 5-7 channel amps. Does this imply a 20A circuit should be used? What is the performance of the multi-channel amps when all channels are being driven? Some manufacturers state all channels driven, others have one channel rated at full power while the remaining are at 1/8th power. You only provide the single module spec from B&O. You referenced Pioneer in one of your posts. If you go to their website you will see they are very specific about the number of channels driven for a specific rated power

Also what is the inter-channel cross talk? This spec is very implementation specific and could never be provided by B&0 (for monoblock modules).

I think you dismiss the FCC compliance too easily. It is a well known fact that a module that passes in open space may not when placed in a perforated metal box. This problem can be greatly exacerbated when using multiple modules. Who do customers turn to if their FM receivers, cordless phones or RF remotes start having problems? If you were importing these amps as a finished product rather than the individual ICE modules, Customs would require that you comply with FCC part 15 and could back it up with a certification from an independent lab.

I don't think you completely understand the show. A 5 channel D-Sonic 2000-5 multichannel amp contains three (3) 1000 ASP and two (2) 500 ASP IcePower modules. Each channel is a separate B&O Ice module. So the specs are for each independent channel (all channels driven). One 20A electrical circuit is sufficient for a 2000-5 or a 2500-7

 

[bandphan]

Dennis, I think the ICE specs speak for themselves, however as a system integrator, I think you have some responsibility to provide specs for the finished product.

what in the world has the FCC ever done to provide meaningful specs to consumers, as an intergrator you should know this.

 

[PaulF]

I don't think you completely understand the show. A 5 channel D-Sonic 2000-5 multichannel amp contains three (3) 1000 ASP and two (2) 500 ASP IcePower modules. Each channel is a separate B&O Ice module. So the specs are for each independent channel (all channels driven). One 20A electrical circuit is sufficient for a 2000-5 or a 2500-7

That's fully understood but that still doesn't cut it. What happens if a user plugs into a 15A circuit? How does the amp perform when that AC circuit is loaded? Do the amps inject noise back into the AC supply that affects other channels?

Also, you can't simply stuff multiple amp modules in a box and call it a day. A finished product should have a UL approval. This must be done on the completed product to ensure that all wiring, fusing, grounding (safety) meets appropriate standards. I have no reason to believe the product would not pass, but without the appropriate approvals we don't know.

Look at the rear of the Pioneer unit I linked to, notice the UL logo.

 

[PaulF]

what in the world has the FCC ever done to provide meaningful specs to consumers, as an intergrator you should know this.

In the context of amplifier performance, nothing. Just like the fact that the gas tank in your car is designed not to blow up in a fire does nothing to improve the performance, or that the roof on your house not collapse on your head help keep the rain out (well I guess that depends on whether it collapses ).

The RFI requirement is a consumer protection to ensure one device in the home does not negatively impact the performance of others (or the neighbors').

As I said earlier, without such approval this product should not be on the market, but because it is not being imported in finished form, it's sale is not being impeded.

 

[dsonic]

Dennis, I think the ICE specs speak for themselves, however as a system integrator, I think you have some responsibility to provide specs for the finished product.

Your site mentions you provide a 20A power cord for all 5-7 channel amps. Does this imply a 20A circuit should be used? What is the performance of the multi-channel amps when all channels are being driven? Some manufacturers state all channels driven, others have one channel rated at full power while the remaining are at 1/8th power. You only provide the single module spec from B&O. You referenced Pioneer in one of your posts. If you go to their website you will see they are very specific about the number of channels driven for a specific rated power

Also what is the inter-channel cross talk? This spec is very implementation specific and could never be provided by B&0 (for monoblock modules).

I think you dismiss the FCC compliance too easily. It is a well known fact that a module that passes in open space may not when placed in a perforated metal box. This problem can be greatly exacerbated when using multiple modules. Who do customers turn to if their FM receivers, cordless phones or RF remotes start having problems? If you were importing these amps as a finished product rather than the individual ICE modules, Customs would require that you comply with FCC part 15 and could back it up with a certification from an independent lab.

Paul, Let's start from the top:

1) All of our 4+ channel chassis use a 20A power cord with blanks covering cutouts for a second input fuse and power cord for commercial theater applications. The most powerful model we now build is an M3500-7 which is 7x525W/ch/8ohm, 1000W/ch/4ohm. If you use this model for concerts and movies you do not need a second fuse/cord because with real music you will never come close to using all of those watts at one time. Also, the 83% efficiency means you are putting most of that line power into musical amplification, not high heat as most AB linear amps (50% efficiency) do. The most we can pull so far with all channels driven to the max is 16A. Your 15A wall circuit will handle this. We have IMAX customers who power 7 passive subwoofers with the M3500-7, hence the second power cord. We have had customers request this on our M2500-7 units also as a $175 option.

2) All channels driven: Cavediver covers this below. Crosstalk is virtually zero as modules share only chassis ground.

3) I stand corrected for now. The Pioneer site clearly states they are following the FTC power rating protocols. We currently received for evaluation, a 7x150W/ch/8ohm PCB with single power supply similar to what they use, and I must say, something is amiss. I will check this out this week with B&O to try and clarify this issue.

4) I do not know where you find any dismissal of FCC compliance. Maybe you were thinking of FTC for the power rating. I clearly stated we were seeking FCC certification.

Regards,

Dennis
d-sonic.net

 

[cfrizz]

And this is a big problem. So many so called "Audiophiles" are simply hung up on the bad class D amps of the old days, and that these amps are only good for subs, that they are not really willing or able to give the new amps a fair shake.

Even this review is not immune to this problem. Gene put a lot of focus into playing music with a strong bass line rather than focusing on the entire spectrum of music. The rest of the music came across to me as more of an after thought.

Until these ingrained biases are put aside, I don't think the class D amps will get a fair shake.

The D-Sonic IcePower amps are far more than subwoofer amps. I've had a D-Sonic 2000-5 paired up with an Integra 9.8 powering a pair of Dali Helicon 400 L & R, Dali Helicon C-200 Center and a pair of Paradigm AMS-150Rs for surrounds for over 1.5 years. The SVS PB12 Plus/2 sub has its own built in amp. I don't think you can beat the sound or performance for both music and theater. To test the capabilities of the amp and speakers, I've had the volume up to 107db, measured by Ratshack spl meter, without the slightest bit of audible distortion in any of the frequencies.

 

[Lordoftherings]

In this particular case it stands for Large Man Acting Out.

Yep, that's what my first thought was.

 

[Betto]

With linear amplifiers it really wasn't necessary because the phase linearity essentially folowed the frequency response. Flat frequency response gave you a linear non varying phase response.

As to your earlier post on measurements I see no reason to test every ICE amp that comes to market. If the ICE amp has NOT been modified on the original board than the only variations one might have is grounding to the chassis and the input and output connections.

If you want to get picky here each ICE amp will measure differently, but the measurements should be within the manufacturers parameters and the variation will be measureable, but the real question is will it even be remotely audible. I think not.
d.b.

Hi, phase vs frequency graphs are something that I don't frequently see in amp measurements.
Many linear amps have strictly limited frequency response so I wonder what phase linearity they actually have.
Moreover, latest gen Icepower modules have way better specs (including frequency response extension and thus phase linearity): a review with indipendent measurements would be interesting.
Regards, Betto