Dayton Audio BR-1 Mod

Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't even know what is going on here....
This link is in post # 14:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm

and it shows you what not to do with the inductor coils but it's all the way toward the bottom.

Or you mean in the whole thread. Let me break it down for you. $200 and a little time will get you speakers that sound twice as good as any Def Techs regardless of the purchase price. :D

Hey every body, guess what color skin turns when you grab the hot part of the iron. :eek:
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I got the inductor placement to meet option #6. The only other option listed as 'good' requires 20 cm which I don't have. Now I understand at least part of the reason Swerd recommends plastic ties over hot glue. I wonder if there are other considerations. Almost a full tube of the USG Acoustical Sealant went into each box. That coupled with the I & W Shield is adding some nice weight to the box and it dropped the frequency of the knuckle rap test.
Alex is this what you're talking about? The fact that you can look through the black inductor hole and see the other one. That resembles option 5 - a problem if it is 10 cm (4") or closer from the center of the other bigger coil.



Did you twist it so it resembles option 6? Then you'll be fine. I find hot glue is easy (too easy) to pry loose. I guess that depends on how much glue you use. I used to use hot glue, but found that it didn't hold very well to masonite. It might work better on those printed circuit boards you have. I once shipped some speakers I built by UPS, and the largest inductor coil broke loose, and a solder joint came apart. Now I skip the glue altogether and rely on cable ties. Others use epoxy or one of the Liquid Nails glues, but I find the glue messy and I'm too impatient to wait for it to dry. I bought a package of 500 assorted sized cable ties at Home Depot and I'm still working on that.

To keep that black inductor from swiveling back to its old location, cut off the old cable ties, and put in some new ones. You may have to drill some new holes for that.

I don't follow what you meant when you talked about adding the USG Acoustical Sealant and the I & W Shield. More details?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Alex is this what you're talking about?
That's exactly what I was talking about. I turned it and pushed it as far away as I could. That glue holds pretty good.





There's not much room left in there for a bigger crossover.

I don't follow what you meant when you talked about adding the USG Acoustical Sealant and the I & W Shield. More details?
The Ice & Water Shield is a rubber or asphault roofing product that is suppose to be 1/2 as effective as Peal & Seal which is suppose to be just as effective as Dynamat (I think) for preventing resonance from coming through the cabinet walls and maybe it will help control internal resonance. This is WmAx and Avaserfi territory. I'm not saying they sanctioned any of this happy hoop-la. I wouldn't mind hearing their thoughts on this though. Oh, it is self adhering and I just stick it to the walls.

The USG stuff is what I used to glue the foam. The idea with that stuff is that the outside of a bead will harden but the inside stays sort to prevent the transmission of sound.

 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
This is a good time to talk about this. Just how close to specs do you actually have to be in crossover component values?

The rule of thumb in DIY crossover building is ±10%. If a schematic diagram shows an inductor coil or capacitor of some defined value, and you can't find it available (my usual sources are Parts Express or Madisound), any thing that is within 10% is OK.

So if you need a 1.4 mH inductor, and all you can find is 1.2 or 1.5 mH, use the 1.5 mH coil. 1.4 ± 10% = 1.26 to 1.54 mH.

The same goes for capacitors and resistors, anything within 10% of the specified value is OK.

I looked at that coil placement guide http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm and compared his first 8 photo examples to the value of his 1st example. I expressed them in how far off from 1.144 mH in % each of those cases are:
  1. 0%
  2. -0.6%
  3. -3.1%
  4. +3.2%
  5. -0.3%
  6. +2.7%
  7. +14.7%
  8. -11.3%
All those situations except the last two are actually within 10% of 1.144 mH. I try to stick to those guidelines when I can, but if there isn't enough room, I don't sweat it.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
All that looks real good. Thanks for all the photos. Any one who has never built a speaker kit before can now look at your pics and think "Hey I can do that".

Those BR-1 cabinets are cheap. If I recall they are thinner than ¾". Anything to help dampen resonance can't hurt.

When you install the redesigned crossovers they will take up more space. Cut away the convoluted foam until they fit.

So how do those BR-1s sound?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I just plugged them in for a dirty test run with Dire Straits Money For Nothing SACD and turned of 1 of my subs because the ... well, it needed it. So I let this rip at the song opening. They work!!!!!! :)

I had it cranked loud too, I'm listening to them now from the other room. It sounds like music and it sounds good. I mean I'm diggin' it. This is a very workable solution. I'll say that I like 'em better than my sister's Polk bookshelves but that's probably because I have P-Dawgs sound panels. :)

The cabinets are 5/8" press wood. I honestly don't see myself being able to yank those drivers back out. The speaker gasket is wicked sticky and one of the tweeters is in the recess super snug. Man they sound nice. :) Any way I'll likely buy the crossover parts and the drivers and make my own cabinets.

This project was on the back burner until you sort of lit a fire under my @$$. My g/f is mildly miffed that my speakers got put together before her bathroom got painted. I told her that if she didn't have this to be miffed about, she would have found something else to be miffed about. That won me big points.:D

I read some reviews on PE and am pleasantly surprised to be liking them this much but I did put extra effort into the cabinets and I think that the suggested inductor coil placement might have hampered the potential of the as is unit. I don't know but I sure am diggin' it. :)

I CAN

SOLDER !!! :)
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Congrats, Alex! I'm glad that you're enjoying the fruits of your labor.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Congrats, Alex! I'm glad that you're enjoying the fruits of your labor.
Thanks. They are really for a separate 2 channel system but right now I just hooked 'em up to my main system. I don't think I'm ready to junk my 360's or nothing but this works! :D

When I grow up I am going to be the finest speaker builder in the land! :)
This must be how Tom Andry feels every day, all day. :)
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I had it cranked loud too, I'm listening to them now from the other room. It sounds like music and it sounds good. I mean I'm diggin' it. This is a very workable solution…

Man they sound nice. :)

This project was on the back burner until you sort of lit a fire under my @$$. My g/f is mildly miffed that my speakers got put together before her bathroom got painted. I told her that if she didn't have this to be miffed about, she would have found something else to be miffed about. That won me big points.:D
If it helps in winning back some points from your g/f, move these bad boys closer to the bathroom and listen while you paint.

I think building kit DIY speakers is a great way to get some good speakers for little $$ and only a bit of sweat. It really is easier than people think.

It seems like you really had a good time building these :D. If I helped any, then I'm happy too :D.

Keep the manual that came with the BR-1s. It is a good primer book for speaker building and crossover design.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Gray or black if you hold it for long enough....
It's actually an off white leaning toward beige.

Any one who has never built a speaker kit before can now look at your pics and think "Hey I can do that".
People can think that but I didn't think it was that easy. Lining that box with Ice & Water Shield and gluing the foam was tough. They advertise that it takes a couple of hours to bang these out and I did not find that to be the case at all. I'm glad I did it and I'm glad that I gave it the extra love.

It seems like you really had a good time building these :D. If I helped any, then I'm happy too :D.
You're enthusiasm is catching and having them work is kind of a big deal. I didn't burn the dinning room table with the soldering iron either so that's good too. Information is a great tool for generating interest. I have these curved mahogany drawer faces that I would like to turn into speaker baffles ... :rolleyes:

(my usual sources are Parts Express or Madisound),
At the end of the manual the designer, Paul Holsopple talks about upgrades to a polypropylene capacitor and Axon or Mills resistors. I'm kind of curious what your thoughts are on those upgrades with a Murphy crossover. Based on your +/- 10% tolerance I'm going to guess the sonic difference in those upgrades would be negligible. The other thing I wonder about is all these dollars spent on passive crossovers being just a step away from affording the wonderful world of active Behringer DCX 2496 crossoverfication one stop solution to all the worlds problems. Hmmmmm ? :)
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
It's actually an off white leaning toward beige.



People can think that but I didn't think it was that easy. Lining that box with Ice & Water Shield and gluing the foam was tough. They advertise that it takes a couple of hours to bang these out and I did not find that to be the case at all. I'm glad I did it and I'm glad that I gave it the extra love.



You're enthusiasm is catching and having them work is kind of a big deal. I didn't burn the dinning room table with the soldering iron either so that's good too. Information is a great tool for generating interest. I have these curved mahogany drawer faces that I would like to turn into speaker baffles ... :rolleyes:



At the end of the manual the designer, Paul Holsopple talks about upgrades to a polypropylene capacitor and Axon or Mills resistors. I'm kind of curious what your thoughts are on those upgrades with a Murphy crossover. Based on your +/- 10% tolerance I'm going to guess the sonic difference in those upgrades would be negligible. The other thing I wonder about is all these dollars spent on passive crossovers being just a step away from affording the wonderful world of active Behringer DCX 2496 crossoverfication one stop solution to all the worlds problems. Hmmmmm ? :)
Well Alex I will be Frank with you. I thought about being John, but I would rather be Frank. John's just to common and most people prefer to be Frank. I think.

Many Speaker builders I've talked with prefer having Passive crossovers between the highs and mids.

1. It requires less amping
2. It is less wiring
3. There are less benefits to active and those benefits they've told me aren't worth it in their ears.
4. You should always keep both options open.

I'm sure others might be screaming bloody murder at this newb, but hey their are those of the persuasion that the simplicity of the passive crossover makes it more worthwhile. Many of those seem to be on the AVSforum. I only peek there and cheat on AH very rarely. Does that make it ok. You can be John with me or Even Alex, just please never be Frank.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
At the end of the manual the designer, Paul Holsopple talks about upgrades to a polypropylene capacitor and Axon or Mills resistors. I'm kind of curious what your thoughts are on those upgrades with a Murphy crossover. Based on your +/- 10% tolerance I'm going to guess the sonic difference in those upgrades would be negligible.
You guessed right.

There are differences in materials and construction of capacitors that keep people arguing over whether they make any difference in sound. There are the cheap non-polar electrolytic (NPE) caps, medium priced metalized polypropylene (MPP) caps, the more expensive film & foil kind, and finally the insanely expensive oil-filled silver caps. Oh, I left out the mysterious "unobtanium" caps, the so-called boutique caps that are so expensive that only an audiophile would want to buy them. I'm holding out for the oxygen-free unobtanium caps :D.

The cheapest NPE caps have two problems. One, they usually are made with sloppy tolerances. If you need caps that are 8.2 µF, you might have to buy 20 and measure each one just to get two within 10% of 8.2. And two, when they age, their capacitance value drifts - slowly. I'll probably be out of spec before the NPE caps go. But the first problem is a show stopper for me. I only use NPEs if a low-pass filter for a large woofer calls for a large value cap, say more than 30 µF.

There are reasonably priced MPP caps available, the Dayton house brand at Parts Express or the Bennic brand from Madisound. Both are very good and I recommend these for almost every purpose in crossovers. They may have ±5% or ±10% printed on them, but in my hands they have usually been within 1% of the specified value. They also don't change with age. Other brands of MPP caps, such as Solen or Jantzen, are very good and cost only a little more than Daytons or Bennics.

I once took part in a listening test at a DIY speaker builder's meet, where about 40 listeners could not tell the difference between crossovers made with cheap NPE or over-priced boutique caps. I flat-out do not believe there is an audible difference between caps of the same value but made with different materials.

The same is true for cheap resistors and the expensive Mills resistors.

The other thing I wonder about is all these dollars spent on passive crossovers being just a step away from affording the wonderful world of active Behringer DCX 2496 crossoverfication one stop solution to all the worlds problems. Hmmmmm ? :)
Despite what you may read around here, no active crossover will sound better or even different than a properly designed passive crossover. The most important thing about any crossover, active or passive, is that it should be properly designed. Properly designed crossovers are the main reason why DIY speakers sound so much better than most commercially sold speakers. I am still amazed at how many commercial speakers there are with poor crossovers. Usually compromises are made by marketing departments for cost reasons, not because the designers were dumb. If you build the Murphy-designed crossovers for the BR-1 you will get an idea of what I mean. At least, in the original BR-1, the designer admits where he made short cuts to keep the price down.

OK, this is beginning to sound like a rant :eek:. I'll stop here. Unless you want to hear more ;).
 
Last edited:
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
The story was just getting good! I got to end rant and I was disappointed. I'm glad to hear that I'm not missing out on quality because I didn't buy the $137 audiophile outlet so to speak. As lsiberian pointed out, the active route runs into bucks quick. I can tell I'm getting tired but over the next couple of days I believe I will order up my parts with drivers. I'd like to replicate that box but with the port anywhere but the back. I guess while I'm at it I could finally get Vance Dickerson's book. Loudspeaker Design, 7th edition I think.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The story was just getting good! I got to end rant and I was disappointed. I'm glad to hear that I'm not missing out on quality because I didn't buy the $137 audiophile outlet so to speak. As lsiberian pointed out, the active route runs into bucks quick. I can tell I'm getting tired but over the next couple of days I believe I will order up my parts with drivers. I'd like to replicate that box but with the port anywhere but the back. I guess while I'm at it I could finally get Vance Dickerson's book. Loudspeaker Design, 7th edition I think.
I'll have to continue the rant some other time when I'm not tired. The whole BR-1 exercise is a good demonstration that cheap drivers can sound pretty good with the right crossover.

I once tried to read Dickerson's book but found it frustrating. His information is good, but his writing is kind of thick and hard to follow. I much prefer Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden.

After reading books like that, and meeting Dennis Murphy, a self-taught amateur who has been designing speakers for over 20 years, I realized that I was better off following recipes from good designers, than trying to design my own. Its kind of like cooking. I can follow recipes from cookbooks and they come out well, but I'd be lousy if I had to invent my own recipes.

There are quite a few amateur speaker designers who have good websites. I'll post a list if you're interested.

When you say you want to build another BR-1 cabinet with the port anywhere but in the back, is it because you want to put it on bookshelves? With relatively narrow speaker cabinets like the BR-1, it makes a difference whether they are placed right up against a wall (or in a bookshelf) or sit out away from the wall. I'm reasonably sure that Murphy's BR-1 crossover assumes they will be about a foot to a foot & a half away from the wall behind them. Read this article about baffle step compensation (BSC) and tell me if it makes any sense to you. Don't worry about the math (there are easy to use spreadsheets for this), just try to follow his explanation. If you plan on putting your BR-1 on a bookshelf, we can reduce the BSC a little bit and it will work fine. Don't order any crossover parts until this question is settled.

There is no reason why you can't put the port vent in front, on the side, or even on the bottom. With cabinets, the inside volume, port diameter & length, outside width of the front baffle, and woofer-to-tweeter distance are the most important things to keep the same.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
I just plugged them in for a dirty test run with Dire Straits Money For Nothing SACD and turned of 1 of my subs because the ... well, it needed it. So I let this rip at the song opening. They work!!!!!! :)

I had it cranked loud too, I'm listening to them now from the other room. It sounds like music and it sounds good. I mean I'm diggin' it. This is a very workable solution. I'll say that I like 'em better than my sister's Polk bookshelves but that's probably because I have P-Dawgs sound panels. :)

The cabinets are 5/8" press wood. I honestly don't see myself being able to yank those drivers back out. The speaker gasket is wicked sticky and one of the tweeters is in the recess super snug. Man they sound nice. :) Any way I'll likely buy the crossover parts and the drivers and make my own cabinets.

This project was on the back burner until you sort of lit a fire under my @$$. My g/f is mildly miffed that my speakers got put together before her bathroom got painted. I told her that if she didn't have this to be miffed about, she would have found something else to be miffed about. That won me big points.:D

I read some reviews on PE and am pleasantly surprised to be liking them this much but I did put extra effort into the cabinets and I think that the suggested inductor coil placement might have hampered the potential of the as is unit. I don't know but I sure am diggin' it. :)

I CAN

SOLDER !!! :)
That's great news, glad to hear it all works.

Too bad all of us live so for from each other.
The inter-web is very deceptive, makes everyone seem so close....until you want to go over and listen to their latest speakers, or wall treatments.:(
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I'll post a list if you're interested.
Don't order any crossover parts until this question is settled.
Any list you feel like posting is sure to get viewed by more than just me so don't hold back now. I think it's good for the hobby in general. Snooping through old posts I found where you warned a member (abefroman?) about fancy components being a waste after you told me they were a waste. That is advice I can understand and appreciate. If I had a ton of cash I would own DT 7002's for $2500. The last thing I or this hobby need is misinformation that essentially turns normal people away and in the end elevates costs in general. Enough of that, economics isn't one of my areas of interest.

I have some ideas on what will happen with our spare room. I became aware of some articles on BSC I think over at Avaserfi's site which is now gone but it like a lot of other stuff is over my head. I plug away at stuff but it's always an uphill fight. I tell people that it's like learning a language. Some things are easier when you're 5 years old.

Budget and sound wise, the BR-1's are a good fit for me. If I can further modify the cabinet geometry and crossover to suit a particular speaker placement ... now that has me all kinds of interested.

I got the Dickerson recommendation from TLS but then again, I can't understand 90% of his posts anyway. I think a formal education may have served me well instead of a having varied, fickle interests of the most disorganized nature.

That's great news, glad to hear it all works.

Too bad all of us live so for from each other.
The inter-web is very deceptive, makes everyone seem so close....until you want to go over and listen to their latest speakers, or wall treatments.:(
After I tested them out I packed them right back up just in case I run into somebody local that wants to buy a custom pair of BR-1's for

One Million Dollars :D
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Explaining BSC

I have some ideas on what will happen with our spare room. I became aware of some articles on BSC I think over at Avaserfi's site which is now gone but it like a lot of other stuff is over my head. I plug away at stuff but it's always an uphill fight. I tell people that it's like learning a language. Some things are easier when you're 5 years old.
Don't sell yourself short. For me, the difficult part of speaker building has been the woodwork. You're an experienced finish carpenter, and building speaker cabinets should be easy. I made a lot of sawdust learning the hard way how to make good boxes without gaps. Veneering is still something that makes me nervous. I didn't have any tools to speak of. So I had to learn about that too. From what I've seen from your photos while you built the BR-1s, you have good instincts about using tools and using your hands in general.

OK on to baffle step compensation (BSC). Think about a bare light bulb hanging on a long length of wire. Light travels from it in all directions, up, down and sideways . If you raise the bulb closer to the ceiling, you get more light reflecting off the ceiling. If the bulb is right up against the ceiling, light now travels only down and sideways. It actually makes the light brighter because all the light that used to travel up, gets reflected down.

The same goes for sound from speakers. Instead of a ceiling, think about speakers sitting in front of a wall. The closer the speakers are to the wall, the more reflected sound you hear. There is one big difference between light and sound, and that is wavelength. Sound waves are much much longer than light waves. Light wavelengths will always be much smaller than the size of the light bulb. Sound waves can be larger or smaller than the size of the speaker.

Sound travels at 1130 feet/second. 1130 ft/sec ÷ frequency (Hz) = wavelength in feet.
20 Hz = 56.5 feet
200 Hz = 5.65 feet
2,000 Hz = 0.565 feet = 6.8"
20,000 Hz = 0.0565 feet = 0.68"

When sound wavelength is larger than the width of the speaker cabinet (the BR-1 front baffle is 8⅝" wide), it acts like light coming from the bare light bulb hanging on a long wire. It travels outward in all directions of a sphere, around the sides and to the rear of the speaker. As the wavelength gets shorter than the baffle width, it acts like light from a light bulb up against the ceiling. It reflects off the front baffle in a hemisphere pattern - and is about twice as loud as sound with longer wavelengths.

If you look at a graph of frequency response of the speaker, you get a step up in loudness of about 4-6 dB. Hence the name baffle step response. In the example of an unidentified but well-known commercially available speaker, you can see the baffle step beginning between 500 and 1 kHz and ending with a dip just beyond 2 kHz.



Our hearing is very sensitive in this range. Depending on what you're listening to, this exaggerated midrange can sound too forward. Some people have described this a nasal or honky sound. Voices and brass will be overemphasized in a way that smears the sound, loosing overall clarity and detail. I'm always surprised at how many commercially available speakers fail to deal with this.

It can easily be corrected in the crossover with BSC as explained in this article. There are simple to use online calculators that make the math easy.

When BSC is built into a crossover, the designer has to make an assumption about where a speaker will be located relative to the wall behind it. If it will be far away, more than 2 feet, add in 6 dB of BSC (see page 6 of that BSC article). For 1 to 1½ feet add 4 dB. For less than a foot, you may want to omit the BSC. That is why I was asking you if you plan on putting your speakers on a bookshelf. That would be the same as keeping a speaker close the wall. With BSC, such a location will make a bass-heavy sound. Without any BSC, it will sound more natural.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top