I don't understand...

itschris

itschris

Moderator
I don't understand... I can't get my head around why so many of liberal ideology cannot grasp the concept of evil... why there's not a willingness to do whatever it takes by any means to bring down those who would do us harm.

I don't mean this as an insult, but as more of a true lack of comprehension for a mindset. History, both recent and well into the past, spells out a very clear record of victories, failures, and consequences that are simply ignored by this idea that comfort, understanding, tolerance, and apology will somehow change the thinking of radical individuals who would just as soon slit your throat as they would shake your hand.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/17/bush-officials-warn-release-legal-memos-interrogation/
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I don't understand... I can't get my head around why so many of liberal ideology cannot grasp the concept of evil... why there's not a willingness to do whatever it takes by any means to bring down those who would do us harm.

I don't mean this as an insult, but as more of a true lack of comprehension for a mindset. History, both recent and well into the past, spells out a very clear record of victories, failures, and consequences that are simply ignored by this idea that comfort, understanding, tolerance, and apology will somehow change the thinking of radical individuals who would just as soon slit your throat as they would shake your hand.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/17/bush-officials-warn-release-legal-memos-interrogation/
Liberals do have a concept of evil. Ever hear of republicans? hehe j/k

In all seriousness who went into the Serbia? Wasn't it a liberal?
 
S

sploo

Full Audioholic
I don't understand... I can't get my head around why so many of liberal ideology cannot grasp the concept of evil...
This is a very good point - and one that's unlikely to be solved with just a few forum posts!

I would say that I think the concept of good and evil is too simplistic, too black and white.

Many far right figures push this idea that "those guys over there" are evil, and we're the good guys. No doubt whatsoever that Saddam and Osama would, by any decent standards, be classed as evil (though of course Osama's followers would probably see him as a freedom fighter, opposing an evil enemy, and sometimes killing innocent bystanders in the process).

However, if you've sold weapons to said evil guy... does that make you evil? Or just a savvy businessman? If you've authorised military action, that's resulted in the deaths of your enemies, but also "collateral damage" (i.e. innocent civilians) does that make you evil?

If you have a (terrorist) suspect you believe has important information, does that mean it's OK to use torture? Or does that just result in you becoming like him - a monster? Of course, that's assuming the guy you've got really is what you think he is, and you're not strapping electrodes to some innocent guy's balls...

I'm not trying to make a pro/anti left or right comment here, or even a pro/anti torture (though I am personally anti torture), I'm just pointing out that the concept of evil is rather more complex than "us good, them bad".
 
Nemo128

Nemo128

Audioholic Field Marshall
Because evil is subjective, and some people understand subjectivity better than others.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
I want to make it clear that this is not a discussion trying to slam liberals as being soft or anything like that. But what is to be gained by releasing this info... giving those who have yet to be engaged a blueprint of what to expect.

Ask anyone in law, legal, military, intelligence, or strategic planning and they will tell you that information... any information is the most valuable asset to gaining an advantage in an existing conflict or one to take place at some later date.

Giving this information, having civilian style trials for non-citizen, non-civilian military combatants is another exampls of the disconnect I fear. Why there is this rush, this overwhelming need to treat those who would do us harm with more rights than a US citizen is beyond me not to mention the aid it gives their compratiots through public record.

Is it self-effacing guilt? Is it an attempt to somehow feel superior like you're above all this and "understand" and want to show some kind of higher intellect by "rising above the fray?" Or is that you don't really understand?

I don't get it. I just don't understand the thought process.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator

She's not evil... she's an entertainer. She's no different than James Carvil and some others who are on the other side. They're all talking heads who are either truly singular minded or have found their success through the extremism of their niche and are in no way willing to give up their meal ticket.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Is it self-effacing guilt? Is it an attempt to somehow feel superior like you're above all this and "understand" and want to show some kind of higher intellect by "rising above the fray?" Or is that you don't really understand?
Are these rhetorical questions? Or did you expect answers from a particular audioholic?

Sometimes I think of a few you need to create your own forum. Don't get me wrong, most/many of you are very educated, political, and interested, and I avidly read some* of these posts.

But, I dunno. itschris, do you realize over 1/4 of your posts are in the steam vent?

What was that last thread on audio you started?

Mmm.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
She's not evil... she's an entertainer. She's no different than James Carvil and some others who are on the other side. They're all talking heads who are either truly singular minded or have found their success through the extremism of their niche and are in no way willing to give up their meal ticket.
i like ann;)
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
Jostenmeat -
First why do you care what, where, and why I post? Why are you keeping track?Second, I have posted in the music and general areas just this week... if you really must know.

My questions are rhetorical since you couldn't tell. I post topics like this here for the simple reason that we have a very diverse and intelligent group who participate in such threads, individuals who while I may at times disagree with, often have well thought out ideas and motivation behind what they think. I find that intellectually stimulating and I like learning and understanding varying viewpoints.

There are many threads in this and in the other forum or two I visit that I have know would agitate me, or more importantly know that I have no interest or ability to contribute to... I don't participate in those threads, but certainly feel anyone else who wants to can and should.... but... that's just my take on public forums.
 
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J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Jostenmeat -
First why do you care what, where, and why I post?
It was an observation. Takes 3 secs to find out, and I just did.

Why are you keeping track?
I wasn't. But, I repeated the quick search on a few members here, for the first time for anybody here. The prolific nature of some just had me wondering. I can find political forums for anyone who doesn't know they exist.

Second, I have posted in the music and general areas just this week... if you really must know.
Oh. The one that I remember is this one:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54191

My questions are rhetorical since you couldn't tell.
oh ok. Otherwise, they would seem very confrontational. Wait, even as rhetorical, I might see it in the same light. Perhaps you think I am again being a bit obtuse.

I post topics like this here for the simple reason that we have a very diverse and intelligent group who participate in such threads, individuals who while I may at times disagree with, often have well thought out ideas and motivation behind what they think. I find that intellectually stimulating and I like learning and understanding varying viewpoints.
I sometimes feel like I am force fed. Since you are underwhelmed with AV, why do you care to post your politics at an AV forum?

There are many threads in this and in the other forum or two I visit that I have know would agitate me, or more importantly know that I have no interest or ability to contribute to... I don't participate in those threads, but certainly feel anyone else who wants to can and should.... but... that's just my take on public forums.
Fair enough.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
It was an observation. Takes 3 secs to find out, and I just did.



I wasn't. But, I repeated the quick search on a few members here, for the first time for anybody here. The prolific nature of some just had me wondering. I can find political forums for anyone who doesn't know they exist.



Oh. The one that I remember is this one:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54191



oh ok. Otherwise, they would seem very confrontational. Wait, even as rhetorical, I might see it in the same light. Perhaps you think I am again being a bit obtuse.



I sometimes feel like I am force fed. Since you are underwhelmed with AV, why do you care to post your politics at an AV forum?



Fair enough.
I'll answer in reverse order...

I am underwhelmed lately. I see little new stuff that gets me excited. Is that bad? Also, I'm sure you have some ebb and flow to your interests? Are you suggesting I shouldn't be an active member of the forum because I'm little burnt out on HT stuff at this particular moment? If so, I didn't realize there was some sort of ratio of post subjects I needed to maintain. I reiterate why I post here... I like and respect the people here, Jost and have good conversation, debate, and gain insight. And I like the fact that people who have a shared passion for one thing can have completely opposite viewpoints and mindsets about other things. I don't understand how you feel force fed. You don't have to read let alone participate in any discussion you choose not to. I certainly don't. You don't have to either.

I don't think you're being obtuse. The opposite really. I made myself clear that it wasn't a personal thing or a liberal/convservative thing, but more of a question how one set of methods could be so different from another about something that I consider so important. It's an effort to gain an understanding... or perhaps even gain an angle that I have not yet considered, brought to light that I may not have thought of that completely changes my mind. It's less about judging, more about understanding. I feel strongly about what I deem to be right and wrong and I guess the challenge for others (and me) who feel just as strongly in an opposite ideal is to share the what's and why's and either fine common ground, gain that understanding, or at least leave disagreeing but gain respect for the opposing opinion. I can say that's happened a lot here. Guys like Darien and Nemo and I to name just a couple have had strong discussions and have been on complete opposite sides of the fence but, I have great respect for their ideals. I don't find that to be a bad thing.

Again, I guess I don't understand why you would care about what and where I post or my motivations. If you want to do the research that's fine, but I don't know what it's going to tell you that you can't get by just asking. I have been a bit burned out on HT lately. There's little stuff that I find really exciting right now and to me right now, it looks to be a sea of similarity and homogenous product. I have other interests too and have been trying to get back into some of my other hobbies so that has contributed to my lack of posting in the other areas. Politics and the economy, however, are things that literally affect me everyday through my profession and I'm one of those people who think what is said and done in Washington makes a difference. Everyday, the decisions that are made impact for better or worse me and my family's safety, freedom, financial wellbeing, my net worth, and many other aspects of my life so out of necessity it's something I keep in the forefront and am very active in. Even though I don't know any of you personally, I do sort of consider you guys friends... at least in the capacity we have and most of us have learned enough about each others personalities to get some small sense of who each of us are. So yeah, even if I don't want to talk about a 42 inch LCD it doesn't mean that I don't want to stop in and chat. You've been extremely helpful to me over the last year and I appreciate that. If you're not interested in other things that I like to talk about, that's absolutely okay. That's the neat part about this place - you can completely disagree or have zero interest in what someone has to say about life in general, but eventually at some point, we'll be talking about amps, speakers, or cables and have a common ground.
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Further to what Chris said, this is the place to learn the personalities of the other posters in the forum. All HT talk can make a forum but the personalities is what makes a community. That's how I think of AH, as a community, a group of people that gets together to share knowledge, ideas, opinions, etc. outside of the solitary reason that we came here for in the first place.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I want to make it clear that this is not a discussion trying to slam liberals as being soft or anything like that. But what is to be gained by releasing this info... giving those who have yet to be engaged a blueprint of what to expect.

Ask anyone in law, legal, military, intelligence, or strategic planning and they will tell you that information... any information is the most valuable asset to gaining an advantage in an existing conflict or one to take place at some later date.

Giving this information, having civilian style trials for non-citizen, non-civilian military combatants is another exampls of the disconnect I fear. Why there is this rush, this overwhelming need to treat those who would do us harm with more rights than a US citizen is beyond me not to mention the aid it gives their compratiots through public record.

Is it self-effacing guilt? Is it an attempt to somehow feel superior like you're above all this and "understand" and want to show some kind of higher intellect by "rising above the fray?" Or is that you don't really understand?

I don't get it. I just don't understand the thought process.
If they started calling individuals or groups 'evil', they wouldn't be able to go to those people or groups for money and support.

"What do you call assassins who accuse assassins? "My friend".
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
Are these rhetorical questions? Or did you expect answers from a particular audioholic?

Sometimes I think of a few you need to create your own forum. Don't get me wrong, most/many of you are very educated, political, and interested, and I avidly read some* of these posts.

But, I dunno. itschris, do you realize over 1/4 of your posts are in the steam vent?

What was that last thread on audio you started?

Mmm.
As I stated in another thread, the same ole characters just search under their names, it's all the proof you need. BTW Thanks for speaking out!
Regards, Bill
 
S

sploo

Full Audioholic
I want to make it clear that this is not a discussion trying to slam liberals as being soft or anything like that. But what is to be gained by releasing this info... giving those who have yet to be engaged a blueprint of what to expect.
A very good post.

If you're referring to the release of military field manuals; I caught a news program a couple of days ago where an ex-CIA guy was noting that the information contained was freely available and known anyway (i.e. it wouldn't be giving the 'bad guys' anything they didn't already know).

Incidentally, he also claimed that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had confessed under torture to a number of things he couldn't possibly be involved with, which does tie up with some evidence I've seen in the past that torture doesn't tend to result in useful information (basically you'll tell your captors anything they want to hear in an attempt to stop the abuse).
 

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