5.1 Surround Sound - What do you think?

[Bushka]

Hi. This is my first post here as we have been (re)building a house and I'm looking for a place where I can get some feedback on things I should consider when designing a home theater system. My father used to install systems many years ago, and some things have changed since then, so he does not feel like he can give me expert advice. I've gone to some local big box stores to see what the latest is.

So here's where I'm at now: We have an open floor plan with the kitchen, dining room and living room in one big space that measures about 30' by 32'. The living room measures 15 by 30, and is separated from the rest of the space (kitchen and dining room) only by two small columns and an 8' kitchen counter/island. There are 9' ceilings throughout. The TV will be over the fireplace and we're planning to have a 55" LCD, possibly the new Samsung LED/LCD 6000 series. The wife mandated that no speakers could be mounted on any walls whatsoever, and that there can be no subwoofer visible.

That led us to decide on installing the center speaker above the TV (she doesn't even like this idea, but is there a good alternative?) and the 4 other speakers in the ceiling. Either side of the fireplace is going to have floor to ceiling cabinets, so we thought of putting the subwoofer in the cabinet. I was told that if there were some gaps in the cabinet, like maybe mounting the doors a little separated from the cabinet framing, that we'd be OK. I did read the post in this forum about putting the sub in a tight enclosure inside the cabinet.

The big box store recommended 4 Sonance Symphony 623TR ceiling speakers, one Sonance 623T for the center speaker, and a Yamaha XV565BL 7.1ch receiver. Oh, and a Polk SW125 subwoofer. I need to get an RF remote (expensive!) since the components will be behind a wood door cabinet (can't put in screened doors).

I've already run wires for the 5.1 speakers, as well as wires to the kitchen and back exit for a future porch with outdoor speakers. I know I won't be getting the absolute best sound possible because of the restrictions I have to work with, but I think we can get something at least decent with this setup.

Not to be overly long-winded, I'm basically wondering whether the Sonance speakers and receiver I'm being recommended are any good, or is there a better alternative for the money? I'm always suspicious of the big box salespeople so I'm trying to get an independent opinion. Also, can the TV's speakers (if any) be used instead of mounting a center speaker above the TV, or will there be problems with syncing this with the other 4 speakers?

Thanks for any comments specific or general!

Bushka

 

[Pyrrho]

A lot of people seem to want to mount TVs over their fireplaces. This seems to me to be a bad idea, because of the possible heat and smoke issues, as well as the fact that this usually means the TV will be mounted rather high up. And with the speaker over the TV, the sound will be coming from very high up. Speakers in the ceiling, especially the front ones, is far from ideal. It is, of course, your home, and you may do as you like.

I think anything you do with the layout you have is going to be very compromised. If you have a spare bedroom that you can convert into a home theater room, that would probably enable you to have a better sounding system.

I know nothing about the particular in-wall speakers that you mention, so I will not comment on them. However, the subwoofer you are talking about leaves a lot to be desired, particularly if you actually want deep bass. If you can afford it (and if you can fit it where you want it), I would recommend this:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm

 

[Exit]

Will in-wall speakers pass the WAF instead of in-ceiling? If so I think you will have mych better sound and there are a lot of choices. Velodyne and some other companies make in-wall subwoofers which should pass the WAF. Once you get the in-wall subwoofer ok, then shoot for the rest of the in-wall speakers. Some in-wall speaker covers can be painted the wall color and blend in very well for WAF.

 

[Bushka]

Thanks for the replies.

Pyrrho: We are replacing our "real" fireplace with an enclosed gas one, so smoke won't be an issue, and it is supposedly insulated so I don't think heat will be a problem. I agree totally about TV height being too high over a fireplace, so we are going to mount it as low as practical. The ceiling speakers tilt a bit behind the grill so you do have SOME directional capability. I'll look into that subwoofer. Thanks.

Exit: In-wall are a no go. We won't have any wall space next the TV (all cabinets) even if she didn't object to the wall mounts. So ceiling it must be. I just said to heck with it and don't put anything in -- just the TV's speakers, but for the money (not that much) I think a ceiling 5.1 is better than nothing. I just wanted to get the best thing I could for what it is.

We were thinking wall mount subwoofer, but I was told the pricing is much better on normal ones, and I could mount them in a cabinet. That's why I gravitated toward the in-cabinet sub.

Thanks.

 

[lsiberian]

Thanks for the replies.

Pyrrho: We are replacing our "real" fireplace with an enclosed gas one, so smoke won't be an issue, and it is supposedly insulated so I don't think heat will be a problem. I agree totally about TV height being too high over a fireplace, so we are going to mount it as low as practical. The ceiling speakers tilt a bit behind the grill so you do have SOME directional capability. I'll look into that subwoofer. Thanks.

Exit: In-wall are a no go. We won't have any wall space next the TV (all cabinets) even if she didn't object to the wall mounts. So ceiling it must be. I just said to heck with it and don't put anything in -- just the TV's speakers, but for the money (not that much) I think a ceiling 5.1 is better than nothing. I just wanted to get the best thing I could for what it is.

We were thinking wall mount subwoofer, but I was told the pricing is much better on normal ones, and I could mount them in a cabinet. That's why I gravitated toward the in-cabinet sub.

Thanks.

I see a lot of major compromises and not all seem wise.

http://www.speakercraft.com/ Go to this website and check out there products. They make very good in-wall and in-ceiling solutions.

For a TV I suggest you look at a Kuro or Panasonic Plasma. But I still think the TV will be much too high for comfortable viewing. Unless you have a really short fireplace.

LCD TVs take more energy, get hotter, and have lower Picture quality.

 

[Phaselinear77]

design questions

Seems as though the center channel speaker is going to be higher that you may want it to be. Maybe I missed a comment on this. Just to consider.

 

[Bushka]

Isiberian: Thanks for the link. I'll look into those in the morning. Regarding TV's. I've spent a long time looking and learning. I don't think plasma will work because there are many windows in this room, and light will be a problem. Have you seen the new LED/LCD flatscreens? Look at the Samsung 6000 just out. Sony has a line, too, which is excellent, but too expensive. They use 40% less energy than traditional LCD's.

Anyway, we haven't chosen the fireplace insert yet, and height will be a consideration. I don't want to get a stiff neck watching TV, believe me. FWIW, we will have a second sitting room off the master bedroom with prolly a 40" TV NOT over a fireplace!

Phase: I had mentioned the high center speaker. Any idea whether the TV's speakers can be used as the fifth speaker? I believe a big box salesman said I'd have problems interfacing it (my word) with the rest of the 5.1 system. Any ideas on this?

Thanks.

 

[Nemo128]

FWIW, I've never seen a TV with an integrated speaker capable of taking a direct input. Certain monitors with detachable speakers can, like Westinghouse's 37"-42" LCDs.

Never seen a plasma TV with that. Panasonic pro plasmas don't have integrated speakers.

 

[Pyrrho]

...

LCD TVs take more energy, get hotter, and have lower Picture quality.

Usually, but not always, LCD TVs use less energy and don't get as hot. As for picture quality, usually LCD is considered better in a room that has too much light in it. But "picture quality" is a subjective matter, so I won't argue about that.

See:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/display-technologies-guide-lcd-plasma-dlp-lcos-d-ila-crt/display-technologies-guide-lcd-plasma-dlp-lcos-d-ila-crt-page-3/?searchterm=plasma lcd

http://www.crutchfield.com/learn/learningcenter/home/tv_flatpanel.html

 

[AVRat]

Paradigm now offers an angled in-ceiling that you might consider: http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/speaker_inwall_ceiling-specification-41-2-6-8.paradigm

If the sub must be in-cabinet, then a sealed or front-firing driver/port configuration should be considered. What are the dimensions the sub needs to fit into?

 

[Bushka]

Paradigm now offers an angled in-ceiling that you might consider:

If the sub must be in-cabinet, then a sealed or front-firing driver/port configuration should be considered. What are the dimensions the sub needs to fit into?

The cabinet will be custom built, so I have some leeway on what we do. However I think the depth will have to be somewhere around 18". What about providing a gap in the cabinet by spacing the doors 1/4" away from the cabinet frame? Would that help?

Also, I have several recommendations on ceiling speakers, but have no real way to compare them. They're all in the 90-100 watt range, 30 degree max tilt angle and so on. Is there a consumer reports type thing on this forum to help with comparison, or are all 8"-100-watt-tilting-ceiling speakers pretty much all the same?

Thanks.

 

[lsiberian]

Isiberian: Thanks for the link. I'll look into those in the morning. Regarding TV's. I've spent a long time looking and learning. I don't think plasma will work because there are many windows in this room, and light will be a problem. Have you seen the new LED/LCD flatscreens? Look at the Samsung 6000 just out. Sony has a line, too, which is excellent, but too expensive. They use 40% less energy than traditional LCD's.

Anyway, we haven't chosen the fireplace insert yet, and height will be a consideration. I don't want to get a stiff neck watching TV, believe me. FWIW, we will have a second sitting room off the master bedroom with prolly a 40" TV NOT over a fireplace!

Phase: I had mentioned the high center speaker. Any idea whether the TV's speakers can be used as the fifth speaker? I believe a big box salesman said I'd have problems interfacing it (my word) with the rest of the 5.1 system. Any ideas on this?

Thanks.

Yes an LCD is the way to go in a high light environment. It really depends on your distance form the screen. 15 ft away and you can get away with a fireplace mount, but I still suggest another wall.

For speakers I think I would stick with Speaker Craft. Paradigm makes nice speakers. But Speakercraft is very specialized with in ceilings. The decision is yours though.

 

[Bushka]

Yes an LCD is the way to go in a high light environment. It really depends on your distance form the screen. 15 ft away and you can get away with a fireplace mount, but I still suggest another wall.

For speakers I think I would stick with Speaker Craft. Paradigm makes nice speakers. But Speakercraft is very specialized with in ceilings. The decision is yours though.

Actually the couch will be 15' from the TV (55") and I know we are going to mount the TV as low as practical, so I'm not too concerned about neck problems. I'm just hoping I'll get used to a little elevation.

So as far as Speaker Craft, what do you see as their best feature? Are they the best sounding or most reliable, best cost or what? I'd be willing to pay a little more for better quality sound. I believe we were looking at 8" speakers for the 4 ceiling mounts. Do you know anything about the Sonance brand that was being recommended by the big box? How about Onkyo?

Thanks again.

 

[lsiberian]

Actually the couch will be 15' from the TV (55") and I know we are going to mount the TV as low as practical, so I'm not too concerned about neck problems. I'm just hoping I'll get used to a little elevation.

So as far as Speaker Craft, what do you see as their best feature? Are they the best sounding or most reliable, best cost or what? I'd be willing to pay a little more for better quality sound. I believe we were looking at 8" speakers for the 4 ceiling mounts. Do you know anything about the Sonance brand that was being recommended by the big box? How about Onkyo?

Thanks again.

For Onkyo products don't go anywhere else but

www.accessories4less.com they are by far the cheapest place and even with an extended warranty their prices will smoke a Big box and most other Internet retailers.

Anything 700+ will be a great receiver

705 and 805 are better than the 706 and 806,

I think the 705 is probably the best feature filled receiver out there for the price. You can use a 606 if you get 8 ohm speakers.

Speaker craft is the Way to Go. IMO. Paradigm would be fine as well. I think Sonance is decent, but this is the guy who recommended a bad sub. So take what he says with a grain of salt. Of course he might just not know anything about subs.

http://www.sonance.com/products/speakers

I can't speak about speakers I've never heard. But they will probably be decent.

I know others here have used speaker craft and like them. That is the basis of my suggestion.

You must at least give a demo of these speakers. The goal of a speaker system is to disappear sonically. So close your eyes and pick the speakers that most capture you into the music while still fitting your budget. Remember to leave extra funds for the install setup and other stuff we always forget about.

 

[AVRat]

I don't know why the salesperson recommended the Sonance 623T for the center, but the Sonance Symphonys are good and I'd use three 623TRs across the front. For the sub, I think I'd look at the SVS SB12-Plus as an option. It won't plumb the depths, but will perform admirably.

 

[AVRat]

Another sub to seriously consider would be the Epik Vanquish.

 

[MarylandNewbie]

I've never had good luck with using built-in TV speakers. I'd get a Center specific for your system. Good Luck!

 

[lsiberian]

I've never had good luck with using built-in TV speakers. I'd get a Center specific for your system. Good Luck!

You can also phantom the center. Actually I suggest getting a matching bookshelf and mounting it above the if possible.

 

[Bushka]

You can also phantom the center. Actually I suggest getting a matching bookshelf and mounting it above the if possible.

OK, I'll ask the dumb question: What's "phantom the center" mean. Do you mean hiding the center speaker behind a screen or something? I was thinking of painting it to match the surrounding stonework as best I could.

 

[Pyrrho]

OK, I'll ask the dumb question: What's "phantom the center" mean. Do you mean hiding the center speaker behind a screen or something? I was thinking of painting it to match the surrounding stonework as best I could.

"Phantom center" means not having a center at all. The processor sends the center channel information to both the right and left front speakers, at -3 dB to maintain proper balance with the other channels (because it is then being reproduced by two speakers, the volume to each needs to be less to have the same volume overall).