R
rnatalli
Audioholic Ninja
Not in my eyes, but that's me.Would this not include a law abiding, tax paying citizen?
Not in my eyes, but that's me.Would this not include a law abiding, tax paying citizen?
No worries, we're all entitled to our opinion... I was just curious.Not in my eyes, but that's me.
I suppose that's fair to say, but the goal isn't to represent the country as a whole. In Heinlein's eyes, the right the vote equates to the use of force to bring change.Isnt it fair to say that the agenda of the "service individuals" might not be that much different than that of the whole?
Socialism has had a growing influence in America for some 30 odd years now. During that time, the gap between the rich and poor has been steadily growing. Comparisons to China are certainly valid since the closer America moves to China's system, the closer America will resemble China. Perhaps more research will show that those things you complain about are caused by Socialism influence in America, not that Socialism is the answer.Well many socialist places are better off than we are. And Socialism is not a bad thing. Communism is the bad one.
We have a really bad death rate for an industrialized nation and our wealth distribution is on par with China which is not good at all.
We've got work to do to improve this country and wealth redistribution will help.
Nice speakers for all america!
I'm not implying there should be a socialist movement. I think there's a balance and we all have different definitions of what is socialist. To me, the highway I drive on is a result of socialism. Do I believe that everyone should have the same of everything? Certainly not. This is pure stupidity.
I'm a fan of Heinlein, although there's much I don't agree with. But his quote below gives a pretty good picture of democracy in this country and where we're headed:
“The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a “warm body” democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction…. Once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader — the barbarians enter Rome.”
To Sail Beyond the Sunset
Robert A.Heinlein
I see service as military service, volunteer work, anything that advances the well-being of the country as a whole.
Yes but unlike China the cause of that wealth distribution is not because of lack of opportunity.Well many socialist places are better off than we are. And Socialism is not a bad thing. Communism is the bad one.
We have a really bad death rate for an industrialized nation and our wealth distribution is on par with China which is not good at all.
We've got work to do to improve this country and wealth redistribution will help.
Nice speakers for all america!
My point wasn't that it would be representative of the whole, but that it wouldn't differ from the whole... At the point that you "select" a group to vote, knowing that the selection would be agenda biased, there is no need to vote.I suppose that's fair to say, but the goal isn't to represent the country as a whole. In Heinlein's eyes, the right the vote equates to the use of force to bring change.
This is where we part logical company, rnatalli. I don't believe that one badly misrepresented form of governance in our country (ala Bush) deserves or justifies another (ala Obama).I don't understand why some people equate socialism with bad. Do we not have the same military protecting us? Do we not drive on the same roads? Do most of us not send our children to the same schools? Of course, anything can be overdone, but that isn't the case in the US and won't even come close even under Obama.
What I find ironic is that the same people who cry socialism when a president talks about something like universal health care are the same people who don't mind the government holding people without trial at Gitmo or tapping our phones. It's a slippery slope in both these instances. Provide universal care, what's next? Government holds "enemies" without trial, who's next? Same, but different focus.
Very good quoteI'm not implying there should be a socialist movement. I think there's a balance and we all have different definitions of what is socialist. To me, the highway I drive on is a result of socialism. Do I believe that everyone should have the same of everything? Certainly not. This is pure stupidity.
I'm a fan of Heinlein, although there's much I don't agree with. But his quote below gives a pretty good picture of democracy in this country and where we're headed:
“The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a “warm body” democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction…. Once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader — the barbarians enter Rome.”
To Sail Beyond the Sunset
Robert A.Heinlein
I see service as military service, volunteer work, anything that advances the well-being of the country as a whole.
Yes among working members of society.And it was Isiberian that talked about the redistribution of wealth.
I agree with you, but so many believe we should continue to run the country like a mom and pop shop.I also think our nation is to big to sustain itself in a central form of government.
300 million people is too much for one central government to manage.
I never said the U.S. is a socialistic economy. All I said was that there are some aspects that many would label as socialistic. Everyone has a different line in the sand.As you say...who said anything about a democracy? This is a Republic...a 'representative' democracy. And because people pay taxes for the common good and defense, does NOT make this a socialistic economy...
Point #1...I never said the U.S. is a socialistic economy. All I said was that there are some aspects that many would label as socialistic. Everyone has a different line in the sand.
Stop bashing me over the head with the Constitution. It was written 300 years ago when the world was very different and it's only valid while the people have faith in it. When times get tough, it goes right out the window.
And #2...My point is that some socialist principles are needed.
What good is reading the constitution when it was made clear the government can violate it and stomp all over our civil liberties.
Who believes that Nemo? Anyone you know say that?Seems like some believe that the more "successful" you are, the harder you work.
I guess Madoff deserves that money. He must have worked his tail off. Why are people trying to come down on him for working hard...
To borrow from George Carlin, "read up on Japanese-Americans, WWII and you'll read all about your precious rights." Gotta love George! Even the founding fathers violated the constitution. Chalk it up to how one interprets it.LOL, I don't mean to bash you on the noggen with the Constitution. But I suggest reviewing it for the very reason you stated in your last sentences. It is likely THE most important civil document ever written. It stands on its own as a guide post to direct this country. There is nothing in it that isn't pertinent today...233 years later. What, if anything, do you think comes right in the window when the Constitution "goes right out"? Anarchy? A new social compact of some sort? Heinlein's future? I'd like to hear your take on the matter.
I think you and I are closer in positions than you suppose with regards to your feelings about the inevitability of oblivion and the abuse of power. I completely agree with what you have written above.To borrow from George Carlin, "read up on Japanese-Americans, WWII and you'll read all about your precious rights." Gotta love George! Even the founding fathers violated the constitution. Chalk it up to how one interprets it.
It's meaningless and too time-consuming to go into hypothetical; 20 pages later, we'll still be right where we started. We can simply agree to disagree. I respect your positions and you respect mine and leave it at that. I think we all agree that oblivion is inevitable and it isn't Obama's universal health care or Bush's Gitmo that will bring it on meaning there's something fundamentally wrong. Or it could simply be that the U.S. had its run in history and it was grand, but all grand things come to an end.
A witch!!!!!!!!!!!! Burn her!A broom disguised as a horse disguised as a person????
I think the argument lies in what we feel the government should control and what it shouldn't. Simple as that.You can't play both ends of that government-is-crap or government-needs-more control argument.