So This Should Surprise No One

[rnatalli]

Would this not include a law abiding, tax paying citizen?

Not in my eyes, but that's me.

 

[adwilk]

Not in my eyes, but that's me.

No worries, we're all entitled to our opinion... I was just curious.

Isnt it fair to say that the agenda of the "service individuals" might not be that much different than that of the whole? Is there really any way to know? Its just a smaller sample of what makes up this country....

 

[rnatalli]

Isnt it fair to say that the agenda of the "service individuals" might not be that much different than that of the whole?

I suppose that's fair to say, but the goal isn't to represent the country as a whole. In Heinlein's eyes, the right the vote equates to the use of force to bring change.

 

[Davemcc]

Well many socialist places are better off than we are. And Socialism is not a bad thing. Communism is the bad one.

We have a really bad death rate for an industrialized nation and our wealth distribution is on par with China which is not good at all.

We've got work to do to improve this country and wealth redistribution will help.

Nice speakers for all america!

Socialism has had a growing influence in America for some 30 odd years now. During that time, the gap between the rich and poor has been steadily growing. Comparisons to China are certainly valid since the closer America moves to China's system, the closer America will resemble China. Perhaps more research will show that those things you complain about are caused by Socialism influence in America, not that Socialism is the answer.

 

[Tomorrow]

I'm not implying there should be a socialist movement. I think there's a balance and we all have different definitions of what is socialist. To me, the highway I drive on is a result of socialism. Do I believe that everyone should have the same of everything? Certainly not. This is pure stupidity.

I'm a fan of Heinlein, although there's much I don't agree with. But his quote below gives a pretty good picture of democracy in this country and where we're headed:

“The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a “warm body” democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction…. Once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader — the barbarians enter Rome.”

To Sail Beyond the Sunset
Robert A.Heinlein

I see service as military service, volunteer work, anything that advances the well-being of the country as a whole.

As you say...who said anything about a democracy? This is a Republic...a 'representative' democracy. And because people pay taxes for the common good and defense, does NOT make this a socialistic economy...which, by the way, is the intent of the person in my subject in the original post.

And it was Isiberian that talked about the redistribution of wealth.

I again would suggest reading the U.S. Constitution and Thomas Jefferson. And because some in government trod upon our civil rights, it's still illegal under the Constitution (like some draconian gun laws, for example) and doesn't mean generally that one form of government is better than another. What's your issue there?

EDIT: I also should say that I heartily agree with Heinlein and you on that future.

 

[krzywica]

Well many socialist places are better off than we are. And Socialism is not a bad thing. Communism is the bad one.

We have a really bad death rate for an industrialized nation and our wealth distribution is on par with China which is not good at all.

We've got work to do to improve this country and wealth redistribution will help.

Nice speakers for all america!

Yes but unlike China the cause of that wealth distribution is not because of lack of opportunity.

 

[adwilk]

I suppose that's fair to say, but the goal isn't to represent the country as a whole. In Heinlein's eyes, the right the vote equates to the use of force to bring change.

My point wasn't that it would be representative of the whole, but that it wouldn't differ from the whole... At the point that you "select" a group to vote, knowing that the selection would be agenda biased, there is no need to vote.

 

[Tomorrow]

I don't understand why some people equate socialism with bad. Do we not have the same military protecting us? Do we not drive on the same roads? Do most of us not send our children to the same schools? Of course, anything can be overdone, but that isn't the case in the US and won't even come close even under Obama.

What I find ironic is that the same people who cry socialism when a president talks about something like universal health care are the same people who don't mind the government holding people without trial at Gitmo or tapping our phones. It's a slippery slope in both these instances. Provide universal care, what's next? Government holds "enemies" without trial, who's next? Same, but different focus.

This is where we part logical company, rnatalli. I don't believe that one badly misrepresented form of governance in our country (ala Bush) deserves or justifies another (ala Obama).

 

[lsiberian]

I'm not implying there should be a socialist movement. I think there's a balance and we all have different definitions of what is socialist. To me, the highway I drive on is a result of socialism. Do I believe that everyone should have the same of everything? Certainly not. This is pure stupidity.

I'm a fan of Heinlein, although there's much I don't agree with. But his quote below gives a pretty good picture of democracy in this country and where we're headed:

“The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a “warm body” democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction…. Once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader — the barbarians enter Rome.”

To Sail Beyond the Sunset
Robert A.Heinlein

I see service as military service, volunteer work, anything that advances the well-being of the country as a whole.

Very good quote

 

[lsiberian]

And it was Isiberian that talked about the redistribution of wealth.

Yes among working members of society.

Taxes are a good way to accomplish this. If you get paid by a J O B then you did something that was considered valuable.

I think we also need to give everyone the chance to go to college without loans. This idea of placing a huge burden on someone advancing themselves is stupid. But it seems the way that many states are heading. Especially mine. They barely lowered taxes and raised tuition rates dramatically.

I also think our nation is to big to sustain itself in a central form of government.

300 million people is too much for one central government to manage.

 

[rnatalli]

I also think our nation is to big to sustain itself in a central form of government.

300 million people is too much for one central government to manage.

I agree with you, but so many believe we should continue to run the country like a mom and pop shop.

It comes down to this, if we want to maintain our dominance in the 21st century, we will have to spend ourselves into bankruptcy in the next 20-30 years in which case we'll lose dominance. Or, we can accept the fact that we will have to share the sand box with the rest of the world.

 

[rnatalli]

As you say...who said anything about a democracy? This is a Republic...a 'representative' democracy. And because people pay taxes for the common good and defense, does NOT make this a socialistic economy...

I never said the U.S. is a socialistic economy. All I said was that there are some aspects that many would label as socialistic. Everyone has a different line in the sand.

Stop bashing me over the head with the Constitution. It was written 300 years ago when the world was very different and it's only valid while the people have faith in it. When times get tough, it goes right out the window.

 

[Tomorrow]

I never said the U.S. is a socialistic economy. All I said was that there are some aspects that many would label as socialistic. Everyone has a different line in the sand.

Stop bashing me over the head with the Constitution. It was written 300 years ago when the world was very different and it's only valid while the people have faith in it. When times get tough, it goes right out the window.

Point #1...

My point is that some socialist principles are needed.
What good is reading the constitution when it was made clear the government can violate it and stomp all over our civil liberties.

And #2...

LOL, I don't mean to bash you on the noggen with the Constitution. But I suggest reviewing it for the very reason you stated in your last sentences. It is likely THE most important civil document ever written. It stands on its own as a guide post to direct this country. There is nothing in it that isn't pertinent today...233 years later. What, if anything, do you think comes right in the window when the Constitution "goes right out"? Anarchy? A new social compact of some sort? Heinlein's future? I'd like to hear your take on the matter.

 

[Nemo128]

Seems like some believe that the more "successful" you are, the harder you work.

I guess Madoff deserves that money. He must have worked his tail off. Why are people trying to come down on him for working hard...

 

[Tomorrow]

Seems like some believe that the more "successful" you are, the harder you work.

I guess Madoff deserves that money. He must have worked his tail off. Why are people trying to come down on him for working hard...

Who believes that Nemo? Anyone you know say that?

I think if you take a poll here, you'll find 100% believe rather the opposite...or that "the harder you work, the more successful you can become". And that will be less true the deeper this country goes into a socialistic economy.

 

[Nemo128]

It's been clearly evident in my experience, including my current fed govt job, that you do not work hard to succeed. You simply play your cards right and have the correct backing/support/network.

People will scream till they are blue in the face that they are being forced to give up their hard-earned money to support the deadbeats in society. Please...

You know what welfare really is? Govt employees sitting around for 7 hours a day drinking coffee and talking about how this country is going to crap while getting paid pretty nice salaries, all on YOUR tax dollars...

The AIG execs worked real hard too. Why tax them 90%? Why punish their success? I bet they worked real hard to screw over their customers, the tax payers, and their employees. You want true capitalism? Deregulate everything. Then when you're all out of work because the system has been bled dry by a fraction of a percent of the world's population, you'll get what you wished for all this time.

 

[rnatalli]

LOL, I don't mean to bash you on the noggen with the Constitution. But I suggest reviewing it for the very reason you stated in your last sentences. It is likely THE most important civil document ever written. It stands on its own as a guide post to direct this country. There is nothing in it that isn't pertinent today...233 years later. What, if anything, do you think comes right in the window when the Constitution "goes right out"? Anarchy? A new social compact of some sort? Heinlein's future? I'd like to hear your take on the matter.

To borrow from George Carlin, "read up on Japanese-Americans, WWII and you'll read all about your precious rights." Gotta love George! Even the founding fathers violated the constitution. Chalk it up to how one interprets it.

It's meaningless and too time-consuming to go into hypothetical; 20 pages later, we'll still be right where we started. We can simply agree to disagree. I respect your positions and you respect mine and leave it at that. I think we all agree that oblivion is inevitable and it isn't Obama's universal health care or Bush's Gitmo that will bring it on meaning there's something fundamentally wrong. Or it could simply be that the U.S. had its run in history and it was grand, but all grand things come to an end.

 

[Tomorrow]

To borrow from George Carlin, "read up on Japanese-Americans, WWII and you'll read all about your precious rights." Gotta love George! Even the founding fathers violated the constitution. Chalk it up to how one interprets it.

It's meaningless and too time-consuming to go into hypothetical; 20 pages later, we'll still be right where we started. We can simply agree to disagree. I respect your positions and you respect mine and leave it at that. I think we all agree that oblivion is inevitable and it isn't Obama's universal health care or Bush's Gitmo that will bring it on meaning there's something fundamentally wrong. Or it could simply be that the U.S. had its run in history and it was grand, but all grand things come to an end.

I think you and I are closer in positions than you suppose with regards to your feelings about the inevitability of oblivion and the abuse of power. I completely agree with what you have written above.

My issue with you concerns your earlier posturing about the need for yet more governmental influence via the imposition of more socialism in our economy. You can't play both ends of that government-is-crap or government-needs-more control argument.

 

[highfigh]

A broom disguised as a horse disguised as a person????

A witch!!!!!!!!!!!! Burn her!

 

[rnatalli]

You can't play both ends of that government-is-crap or government-needs-more control argument.

I think the argument lies in what we feel the government should control and what it shouldn't. Simple as that.