1080p On 360 Doesn't Exist?

[MADCOW]

This is most definately an older and fairly irrelevant argument, but I want some clearification on the matter. I was at BB the other day, and the sales guy there told me that there is no point hooking up a XBOX360 via HDMI because no 360 games are in 1080p anyway. He said to look at the back of the games and "I will see" that most are in 720p only.

Well I told him the truth, that I have about 20 360 games which all claim on the back to be in 1080p. The guy then told me that it is IMPOSSIBLE for any xbox360 game to be in 1080p because the disks the games are on arn't big enough in data storage to support the data needed for 1080p, and that the games which claim to be in 1080p probably only support that resolution during the cutscenes and the game play is all 720p.

He seemed to be implying that even when using the newer xbox 360s with HDMI, or the Elites, and even when using a game which claims to support 1080p, you won't truly get that resolution during game play like you will with the ps3.

Is any of this true, or is this guy just a ps3 fanboy?

 

[nibhaz]

Mostly true...

What the BB employee is telling you is mostly true. All the big name titles that have 1080p on the back of the box are not natively rendered at 1080p, but rather are capable of being scaled to 1080p by the 360 while still maintaining the necessary frame rates for good game play.

To my knowledge the only 360 games to have a native 1080p resolution are a few titles offered in the live arcade such Geometry Wars 2.

Also, it my understanding that it is the 360’s hardware that prevents the big name games from being done natively in 1080p, not the physical medium of the games.

 

[lsiberian]

This is most definately an older and fairly irrelevant argument, but I want some clearification on the matter. I was at BB the other day, and the sales guy there told me that there is no point hooking up a XBOX360 via HDMI because no 360 games are in 1080p anyway. He said to look at the back of the games and "I will see" that most are in 720p only.

Well I told him the truth, that I have about 20 360 games which all claim on the back to be in 1080p. The guy then told me that it is IMPOSSIBLE for any xbox360 game to be in 1080p because the disks the games are on arn't big enough in data storage to support the data needed for 1080p, and that the games which claim to be in 1080p probably only support that resolution during the cutscenes and the game play is all 720p.

He seemed to be implying that even when using the newer xbox 360s with HDMI, or the Elites, and even when using a game which claims to support 1080p, you won't truly get that resolution during game play like you will with the ps3.

Is any of this true, or is this guy just a ps3 fanboy?

There are several issues you seem to have.

1. Listening to a Best Buy Employee on the finer points of HD technology

2. Haven't games been in higher than 1080 resolutions for a long time on PCs? Also Games take up less space than movies. I'm not a game designer and I would have to do more research, but I don't want to waste our time refuting a Best Buy Employee.

3. The Xbox has been verified to have true 1080p games. One example is Virtua Tennis 3. There are lists out there.

4. He isn't a fanboy, he's ignorant. I love the PS3 but he's just wrong.

 

[lsiberian]

What the BB employee is telling you is mostly true. All the big name titles that have 1080p on the back of the box are not natively rendered at 1080p, but rather are capable of being scaled to 1080p by the 360 while still maintaining the necessary frame rates for good game play.

To my knowledge the only 360 games to have a native 1080p resolution are a few titles offered in the live arcade such Geometry Wars 2.

Also, it my understanding that it is the 360’s hardware that prevents the big name games from being done natively in 1080p, not the physical medium of the games.

Depends on the game type though. An RPG may not have that resolution even on Blu-ray. But a sports game could easily have that level of graphics.

 

[GlocksRock]

Not all games take up less space than movies. Kojima said that the BD50 wasn't large enough to hold all the data that he wanted to put on MGS4. But there is still an advantage to hooking a 360 up via HDMI, besides the obvious fewer cables argument, and that is the 360 will only upscale movies to 1080p over HDMI.

 

[krzywica]

In no way is the media a limiting factor to the resolution the game is rendered at.

It is strictly the hardware of the unit which is at this point quite dated as far as technology goes.

To get the same FPS at 1080P you would have to dial down the graphics quite a bit.

 

[Joeteck]

Found this site, not sure if its all true. But a start.

CUT PASTE FROM WIKI

The Xbox 360 Core (discontinued)[13] was an entry level Xbox 360. The "Core" is no longer produced, having been replaced by the Xbox 360 Arcade.[11] It was not originally available in Japan, but was later released on November 2, 2006.[14] The Core system came bundled with composite video cables, capable of only SDTV resolutions, but newer models with lot number 0728 or greater have an HDMI 1.2 output. The Core may output HD signals up to 1080p when connected to separately sold HDMI, Component, or VGA cables. It may also utilize a separately sold 20, 60 or 120 GB hard drive. Unlike all other SKUs, it shipped with a wired version of the Xbox 360 controller, instead of the wireless version found in other SKUs.

 

[krzywica]

Thats the output video resolution. Which has nothing to do with the actual game.

 

[Joeteck]

Well then get a receiver that upconverts to 1080p and all is good.

 

[MADCOW]

Just to clearify, by "all games", I meant major titles, as I, and the BB guy was not at all concerned with the resolution of XBL arcade games.

Now, it seems accepted knowledge now that virtually all major titles for the 360 are 720p native. By connecting via HDMI, you have the option of having the native 720p upscaled to 1080p. Is this agreed upon?

The question now is: Is there any benefit to this?

How significant is the difference between 720p upscaled to 1080p and true native 1080p, and is upscaled 1080p any better than native 720p?

Also, I have read several game reviews comparing different versions of games, mostly at gamespot, and usually the reviewers see no difference in quality between the 360 and ps3 versions, even when the ps3 version is native 1080p and the 360 version only upscaled.

Also, on a more personal note. I previously upgraded from component connection to HDMI on my 360, and did notice a SLIGHT in game improvement on every game I tried. But weither or not the improvement was due to increased resolution I am not sure.

 

[Joeteck]

I don't have an xbox 360, but I will let you know if the upscaling feature is worth it. The 565 and 665 both upconvert to the HDMI. So what I'll do is connect the Wii up to it and see if it look better. I have a 42" Toshiba 1080p TV.

 

[nibhaz]

Only one way it is better

There is only one instance where the having the 360 up convert a 720 game to 1080 will be better than having it ouput at 720.

And that example is If you have a 1080p display who's internal scaler is worse than the scaler in the 360.

 

[MADCOW]

"I don't have an xbox 360, but I will let you know if the upscaling feature is worth it. The 565 and 665 both upconvert to the HDMI. So what I'll do is connect the Wii up to it and see if it look better. I have a 42" Toshiba 1080p TV."


Im not sure if that would be a fair test though as to how effective the 360 upscales.

 

[GlocksRock]

I don't have an xbox 360, but I will let you know if the upscaling feature is worth it. The 565 and 665 both upconvert to the HDMI. So what I'll do is connect the Wii up to it and see if it look better. I have a 42" Toshiba 1080p TV.

You are confunsing upconverting with upscaling. Upconverting means that it will take the signal from any source that is not HDMI, and output it on HDMI.

Upscaling refers to taking an image that is not 1080p, and scaling it to 1080p.

 

[nibhaz]

I don't have an xbox 360, but I will let you know if the upscaling feature is worth it. The 565 and 665 both upconvert to the HDMI. So what I'll do is connect the Wii up to it and see if it look better. I have a 42" Toshiba 1080p TV.

Upscaling is not capable of making anything better than it originally was.

But what does matter is how well a scaler scales. (say that three times)

In other words, how well it takes a signal such as 720 and converts it to 1080 so that it matches the native resolution of a display. You can’t magically pull 1080 line of information out of 720 lines of information. The scaler has to mathematically guess how to fill these extra lines of resolution. How well it guesses and predicts to fill those extra lines of resolution determines how good it is. Better scalers inject fewer visual artifacts.

This has all been in layman’s terms but perhaps a better way to think about scaling a picture is to think of it as using the digital zoom on your camera.

 

[MADCOW]

nibhaz, I found that explanation to make sense.

So, is the upscaling process then similar to the process of frame interpoltion on 120hz lcds, as they are both mathematical "guess work"?

 

[nibhaz]

Yes, kind of the same...sort of

To be honest MADCOW, I am a plasma kind of guy and haven't fully educated myself on LCD technology.

With that being said, and the basic understanding I do have of the 120 Hz technology, I think it would be acceptable to think of these two processes in a similar manner.

Obviously they’re doing different things, but kind of using the same fuzzy type logic to arrive at their end results. (More math than I could ever hope to comprehend)

 

[krzywica]

nibhaz, I found that explanation to make sense.

So, is the upscaling process then similar to the process of frame interpoltion on 120hz lcds, as they are both mathematical "guess work"?

No not at all. Upscaling is one thing. You guys are talking about pixel rendering.

You would need double the graphical processing muscle or more to go from 720p to 1080p. The resolution in rendering terms is the total amount of pixels to be rendered simultaneously. This has nothing to do with upconverting.

 

[nibhaz]

No not at all. Upscaling is one thing. You guys are talking about pixel rendering.

You would need double the graphical processing muscle or more to go from 720p to 1080p. The resolution in rendering terms is the total amount of pixels to be rendered simultaneously. This has nothing to do with upconverting.

No good sir, I was very clearly talking about upscaling, and meant to do so, based on a previous post, not the OP.

If you reread the entire thread I think you would see were the topic had changed slightly from the original topic.

 

[krzywica]

No good sir, I was very clearly talking about upscaling, and meant to do so, based on a previous post, not the OP.

If you reread the entire thread I think you would see were the topic had changed slightly from the original topic.

I did read the whole thread.....thats why I quoted him and not you.

And when it comes to video games upscaling is not going to do you much good at all......