DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[geekinthehood]

This post will probably tick a few folks off, but heck, I have my opinion so I decided to share it.

No problem. Here's an example of what some of AV123/Mark's customers are dealing with. I preordered LS9 speakers 12-1-2006. I knew it was a preorder, and I knew it would be a while until I got them. In fact, I paid in full, shipping included, for my speakers. That came to about $4800. Since then, we've seen progress reports (good), pictures (good), reports from people who ordered LS6's (good), more progress reports (good), pictures of a palate of LS9 crossovers (good), pictures of LS9 cabinets being produced by their new cabinet maker (good), then... nothing. (bad) (very bad) Then some of us got emails that confused the issue even more. (more bad) Then, some of us who requested a refund (not me) months ago and haven't received it found out that they weren't actually dealing with AV123, they were dealing with MLS, so AV123 couldn't issue the refund. uh... WTF?

(I tried to post a link, but I'm too new here. You'll find a reference at tweakcityaudio, in the forums, in adult swim, in LS9 Pre-owner Hangout Thread, post 441)

I haven't talked to them myself. And I don't want a refund - I'm not sure if any of us do. We just want our speakers. The total lack of communication was the last straw.

 

[Matt34]

Oh, and from what I have read in this thread so far, it sounds like AV123 is doing just fine...it's MLS that is screwing people over. So far I haven't heard one complaint that was really tied to the official AV123 company. Granted, folks are mad at AV123 for not fixing their problems with Mark, but I have to agree with AV123 that they don't have a role to play in any dealings between an individual and Mark himself.

MWF-15 amp issue is tied directly to the company. There are a few here on their fourth amp in as many months.

 

[droht]

I'm not saying that folks are making stuff up...I think there is definitely something fishy going on with AV123 lately...but it just seems like there is a lot of new members that have been taken by Mark. Is there any way we can really confirm that all of this stuff has happened the way the folks are saying it? I mean, I could create a new alias and say Mark took me for millions. This is the internet we are dealing with and it is easy to slander but hard to confirm anything.

Oh, and from what I have read in this thread so far, it sounds like AV123 is doing just fine...it's MLS that is screwing people over. So far I haven't heard one complaint that was really tied to the official AV123 company. Granted, folks are mad at AV123 for not fixing their problems with Mark, but I have to agree with AV123 that they don't have a role to play in any dealings between an individual and Mark himself.

This post will probably tick a few folks off, but heck, I have my opinion so I decided to share it.

While some folks may be piling on without cause, I believe that overall av123 has gotten an abundance of slack from their customer base. Things started to go sideways a little while back, imo, but the incredible loyalty that Mark Schifter enjoys from some of his core customers really colors a lot of the discussions and analysis of what is happening at av123. I think a company with a less charismatic CEO would have been tarred and feather much sooner.

It may be possible, legally, to separate transactions with Mark directly from transactions with av123, but the reality is that they are joined in an inseparable way. If Mark goes down so will av123.

 

[corysmith01]

While some folks may be piling on without cause, I believe that overall av123 has gotten an abundance of slack from their customer base. Things started to go sideways a little while back, imo, but the incredible loyalty that Mark Schifter enjoys from some of his core customers really colors a lot of the discussions and analysis of what is happening at av123. I think a company with a less charismatic CEO would have been tarred and feather much sooner.

Totally agree here. I frequented the forums over there and to say he had a stable of fans who would defend him at all costs is an understatement. Not calling anyone out, just pointing out that, were this a company with nameless/faceless CEO, they/he would not be afforded the leniency received. Things really starting going astray within the last year and frankly I wonder how anyone could stomach the waits, the delays and the over-promising? Especially when cash was often ponied up front. A scary proposition to say the least.

 

[ivseenbetter]

No problem. Here's an example of what some of AV123/Mark's customers are dealing with. I preordered LS9 speakers 12-1-2006. I knew it was a preorder, and I knew it would be a while until I got them. In fact, I paid in full, shipping included, for my speakers. That came to about $4800. Since then, we've seen progress reports (good), pictures (good), reports from people who ordered LS6's (good), more progress reports (good), pictures of a palate of LS9 crossovers (good), pictures of LS9 cabinets being produced by their new cabinet maker (good), then... nothing. (bad) (very bad) Then some of us got emails that confused the issue even more. (more bad) Then, some of us who requested a refund (not me) months ago and haven't received it found out that they weren't actually dealing with AV123, they were dealing with MLS, so AV123 couldn't issue the refund. uh... WTF?

(I tried to post a link, but I'm too new here. You'll find a reference at tweakcityaudio, in the forums, in adult swim, in LS9 Pre-owner Hangout Thread, post 441)

I haven't talked to them myself. And I don't want a refund - I'm not sure if any of us do. We just want our speakers. The total lack of communication was the last straw.

I hate that this situation happened to you. I feel for all those that are getting the shaft on this. However, I'll need to go take a look at that thread that you mentioned. Did the original order go through AV123? Why did everybody think it was AV123...just because it was through Mark? I mean, if they called AV123 and put the order in that way, or did the order over the AV123 website (not the forum) than I don't see how AV123 can back away from their responsibilities. Either way, the situation sucks. I just am not convinced that AV123, as a company, is to blame (yet anyway). Maybe after I read your thread I will be a believer.

MWF-15 amp issue is tied directly to the company. There are a few here on their fourth amp in as many months.

I have had no issues with my amp. But, I know others have. Has AV123 refused to make things right on these amps? I could see slamming them for a subpar QC process, or even a subpar product all together (even though I think the MFW is an awesome product) but it appears that AV123 is working with the folks that are having the problems. Again, AV123 as a company is taking care of what they are supposed to take care of.

While some folks may be piling on without cause, I believe that overall av123 has gotten an abundance of slack from their customer base. Things started to go sideways a little while back, imo, but the incredible loyalty that Mark Schifter enjoys from some of his core customers really colors a lot of the discussions and analysis of what is happening at av123. I think a company with a less charismatic CEO would have been tarred and feather much sooner.

It may be possible, legally, to separate transactions with Mark directly from transactions with av123, but the reality is that they are joined in an inseparable way. If Mark goes down so will av123.

I hope that is not the case. The people and the product of AV123 are more than just one person. Heck, that is like saying the world is going to go out and tar & feather all of us because Bush led us into the ground. Or that they are going to tar and feather us because Obama let the stimulus bill go through with a ton of earmarks on them.

I'm not loyal to AV123...I kinda wish I had gotten a different front soundstage now just for a different look...but I'm not ready to burn them at the stake because of some stuff I read on the internet. I will caveat this by saying that Gene's comments cause me some concern. If anybody here has the connections in the industry to know what is going on it is going to be Gene. So, although I am playing devil's advocate here, something might be going down over at AV123...only time will tell.

 

[madpoet]

I use the same handle on every forum, and am reasonably well known. The details I posted here have been posted quite a while ago at TweakCity, so I'm certainly not coming out of nowhere. I can, if necessary, supply all sorts of emails where Mark makes excuses and flat out lies to me. I understand your concern, but there are sadly MANY of us who are now in this situation with Mark.

As to the separation issue... here's the deal. The President of AV123 posted on AV123 forums deals for speakers. These weren't supposed to be ones he had in his basement. He offered me a nice package deal, standard AV123 warranty, return period, and even mentioned at one point that they were shipping out from AV123. He used the email that he always uses for communication on official AV123 emails. I did not know the Graham Company was a separate corporation. I thought that was just the Paypal address that AV123 used, since I'd never had to use Paypal with them before. I think the reasong for my confusion is pretty apparent. But that's just me.

 

[droht]

...I hope that is not the case. The people and the product of AV123 are more than just one person. Heck, that is like saying the world is going to go out and tar & feather all of us because Bush led us into the ground. Or that they are going to tar and feather us because Obama let the stimulus bill go through with a ton of earmarks on them...

I think the world (or a lot of it, at least) did kind of tar and feather us during Ws tenure.

 

[calnbs]

As to the separation issue... here's the deal. The President of AV123 posted on AV123 forums deals for speakers. These weren't supposed to be ones he had in his basement. He offered me a nice package deal, standard AV123 warranty, return period, and even mentioned at one point that they were shipping out from AV123. He used the email that he always uses for communication on official AV123 emails. I did not know the Graham Company was a separate corporation. I thought that was just the Paypal address that AV123 used, since I'd never had to use Paypal with them before. I think the reasong for my confusion is pretty apparent. But that's just me.

Completely understandable. I saw that deal and thought hard on it but I already ordered the Rockets and so I stayed the course. When I looking at that deal back then, I would never of second guess that it was not through AV123 but through the Graham Company. As far as I was assuming....it was something MLS wanted to handle it himself on behalf of AV123....not on behalf of his other company. I truly hope things work out for you guys. I can't imagine being out that much money and nothing in sight....speaker or refund.

It's amazing how much AV123 repuation is in the gutter. It seems that MLS mishandling of things made AV123 repuation really worst than it really is because he is the face of the company. Even if MLS took care of everyone, I don't think they can restore their image again. Truly disappointed as I enjoyed their speakers and feel are the best bang for the buck under $2K.

 

[corysmith01]

Can someone explain this Graham Company thing to me? I've seen it mentioned a few times in this thread and am a little in the dark. I've bought from AV123, and participated in a raffle or two, and never come across this. Even if it's just a brief explanation. Thanks.

 

[mtrycrafts]

health issues?

" He has said in various posts that he will make good on every promise made - from product deliveries to refunds. "

He's said a lot of things when he was in the process of screwing people. Why would his words mean a damn thing, now?

MLS and AV123 are trying to use his "health issues" as the excuse and lubrication to save their's and Mark's collective reputations and their own butts. But a majority of these screw jobs pre-date his "health issues".

And his posts about how he's getting " support " and they're standing " Shoulder-'To-Shoulder " just comes off as arrogant, insensitive, negligent and a big middle finger to everyone he's swindled and still waiting for their money or ...cough...cough...product.

It's an embarrassment.

How does anyone know that that is true and not just an excuse?
Has anyone, a trusted person went to see him and verify this? Most likely just a sob story like all the other stores I see.

 

[ivseenbetter]

I use the same handle on every forum, and am reasonably well known. The details I posted here have been posted quite a while ago at TweakCity, so I'm certainly not coming out of nowhere. I can, if necessary, supply all sorts of emails where Mark makes excuses and flat out lies to me. I understand your concern, but there are sadly MANY of us who are now in this situation with Mark.

As to the separation issue... here's the deal. The President of AV123 posted on AV123 forums deals for speakers. These weren't supposed to be ones he had in his basement. He offered me a nice package deal, standard AV123 warranty, return period, and even mentioned at one point that they were shipping out from AV123. He used the email that he always uses for communication on official AV123 emails. I did not know the Graham Company was a separate corporation. I thought that was just the Paypal address that AV123 used, since I'd never had to use Paypal with them before. I think the reasong for my confusion is pretty apparent. But that's just me.

I've actually seen you around on different forums before (crazy how sometimes a name just sticks in your mind). I don't doubt your cred and I truly believe something bad has happened. All I can say is "Damn dude...damn" (in a good heartfelt way that is attempting to express sympathy...sometimes text doesn't come off that way so I needed to make sure).

Still, it sounds like Mark was doing some shady stuff that the staff of AV123 couldn't be held responsible for. Granted, I don't see any real reason why I wouldn't have believed it was an AV123 deal either. However, corporate AV123 wasn't really aware that folks were interpreting this sale in that manner. The fact that the money never went to AV123 really ties their hands in regards to doing something to help you.

 

[chpwaman]

I am sooooooooooo glad I decided to go with Ascend over AV123 last week when I made my speaker purchase. I haven't been around the forums as long as many, but there just seems to be too many stories of shady dealings to chalk it up to a few trying to stir the pot.

I'm really concerned for those who paid MLS directly for products they didn't receive, that just seems really, really shady...IMO (Bernie Madoff comes to mind). Why would he have his own Pay Pal account to sell AV123 products?

I hope for those who are owed money or product that this isn't as bad as it looks, but right now with staff being let go, forum down, etc. MLS better get it together fast.

 

[JimmyTango]

I see a lot of things posted here, like 'scam' or 'thief' as in AV123/MLS set out to steal from people.

Having watched my parents 30 year old business crumble, eating up all their savings, putting them in massive debt, and basically ruining them, what I have seen happen to av123 is eerily similar.

My parents basically had to rob peter to pay paul. they were be on credit hold with vendor X, Y and Z. They would have orders to fill but no product to ship. So they would keep taking orders and pay off vendor X, they would get the product from vendor X and fill all the orders that were outstanding.

In the mean time, they would have to give customers excuses, like 'out of stock at manufacturer, back orders, etc.' They would give dates based on when they felt they would be able to pay off vendor X, and if they didn't make that date wait for the customers waiting for the back ordered product to contact them until they made up a new excuse on why they did not have the product yet.

There was no intent to scam people, hold their money randsom, etc. i firmly believe that av123/mls is having money problems. it the only explanation i can think of for their behavior.

fyi: i own av123 speakers and when i got them i got them promptly. this was years ago(RS550 version 1 and RS150's). i personally have had no issue dealing with them, however seeing what has been going on has prevented me from buying anything else for over a year now.

 

[geekinthehood]

I hate that this situation happened to you. I feel for all those that are getting the shaft on this. However, I'll need to go take a look at that thread that you mentioned. Did the original order go through AV123? Why did everybody think it was AV123...just because it was through Mark? I mean, if they called AV123 and put the order in that way, or did the order over the AV123 website (not the forum) than I don't see how AV123 can back away from their responsibilities. Either way, the situation sucks. I just am not convinced that AV123, as a company, is to blame (yet anyway). Maybe after I read your thread I will be a believer.

I'm still in denial - I still think I'm actually going to get my speakers. And maybe I will, but the lack of communication is a very bad sign. My original order went through Sean Parque at AV123. Since it was a pre-order, they weren't on the website, so it was done via email and phone. I don't remember any details of what company I actually paid. I've dealt with lots of internet companies that appear different on my bank statement, so I wouldn't have thought anything of it, anyway. I tried checking, but it's been over 18 months, and I couldn't go back further online.

As far as who is to blame, don't forget that AV123 is lead by MLS. Also don't forget that AV123's forum is still read only, and that the only updates have been provided by MLS. They might have many people, but they only have one voice, and apparently only one person who can make decisions: MLS. And he's not talking.

I really only want my speakers, but the signs don't look too good right now.

 

[SlushPuppy]

The Focus Line Source situation is really odd. I read about the entire development process on the AV123 forum, saw the loudspeakers being manufactured in a AV123 factory with pictures supplied by the AV123 founder, saw them listed as AV123 product on their website, and read about orders being taken by AV123 employees. Regardless of whos account actually received the funds, how can AV123 not take responsibility for this mess?

Am I missing something?

 

[dylancash]

I see a lot of things posted here, like 'scam' or 'thief' as in AV123/MLS set out to steal from people.

Having watched my parents 30 year old business crumble, eating up all their savings, putting them in massive debt, and basically ruining them, what I have seen happen to av123 is eerily similar.

My parents basically had to rob peter to pay paul. they were be on credit hold with vendor X, Y and Z. They would have orders to fill but no product to ship. So they would keep taking orders and pay off vendor X, they would get the product from vendor X and fill all the orders that were outstanding.

In the mean time, they would have to give customers excuses, like 'out of stock at manufacturer, back orders, etc.' They would give dates based on when they felt they would be able to pay off vendor X, and if they didn't make that date wait for the customers waiting for the back ordered product to contact them until they made up a new excuse on why they did not have the product yet.

There was no intent to scam people, hold their money randsom, etc. i firmly believe that av123/mls is having money problems. it the only explanation i can think of for their behavior.

I think you are looking too much at intent and not the result. To strip away any bias we have with Mark or our parents, lets say I told you I had a pair of speakers in my basement right now that I would ship tomorrow if you would paypal me $4,000. 6 Months later, communication has been cut off and you are still with no speakers. Would you consider me a thief and that I scammed you, or would you be willing to chalk it up to money problems?

 

[knucklehead]

I really want a pair of their ELT525 but afraid to get myself into the fray.

For those of you who are owed speakers or refunds and feel stuck, I don't understand why you aren't filing a case against them in small claims court to get your money back. In most states, the claim limit is $5k which should cover most of you. That's what I would be doing if I was in this predicament. Do it now before your statute of limitations runs out. And let's not forget that AV123 could file for bankruptcy protection any time. Then you'll really have a tough time getting anything back.

I had to say it but this situation looks very similar to Madoff ponzi scheme we've all learned just recently. Use today's prepayments to pay for last year's orders. Then pay for today's orders using next month's prepayments.

 

[Haoleb]

Mark HAS indeed helped us out financially, through the raffles. Is there more yet to be delivered? Yes, but I want to make this very clear, Mark HAS indeed sent raffle money our way so please don't think for one second that you did not help. The care and support you all have shown me/us over the past couple of years has simply blown us all away and I am not even talking about the money aspect of it.

I participated in the watch raffle and the re-raffle so i certainly hope that you get those funds. Its very uncool to not have delivered on that yet if that is the case. Its also pretty uncool to not even do the drawings for a matter of months after they end. But thats not really the point

 

[MinusTheBear]

If I had any stake in AV123 or was on the board of directors I would really consider "bailing him out" so he could issue refunds to the customers to try to end this as soon as possible. This is spiraling out of control. They should of dealt with these issues internally instead of out in the public. It is a little late now. Even though these might be seperate entitities, Graham company and AV123, AV123 reputation has been tarnished for good. For an internet direct company that does not advertise and only relies on product reviews and word of mouth on the internet, I have a hard time thinking they can overcome this huge obstacle. In this economy and with consumer confidence in this company at an all time low, tough times are ahead. I wonder what the board of directors are thinking right now

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Speaking of the Devil

...Stereophile just did a speaker review on a pair of AV123 monitor speakers.

I didn't even read it because I guess I didn't even care.