Trading Amplifier Quality for Features – A New Trend with A/V Receivers?

[ned]

The thing is, both the RX-V663 and the newer less powerful RX-V665 can decode the new lossless formats. Both retail for exactly the same price.

I was obviously not referring to these comparissons.

 

[Dan Banquer]

That's great. Are these the new re-designed Ice Amps from B&O?

Here's the link for the data sheet for one of the ICE amps:
http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/files/solutions/icepower1000aspdata.pdf

You should take a close look at the frequency response vs. phase plot and the frequency response vs. power response. Then compare these to any reasonably designed linear amps, and you will understand why Gene says they will make a good subwoofer amp.

d.b.

 

[gene]

That's great. Are these the new re-designed Ice Amps from B&O?

No. It's their own proprietary design. No ICE amp that I know of can put out over 500wpc continuous for full bandwidth into 4 ohms like the Axiom amp I just tested does. Best of all, it does it at under 0.1% THD + N.

 

[Biggiesized]

How much is that sucker gonna cost?

 

[rnatalli]

I'm curious to see what HK and Marantz roll out. They've generally stuck to good amp sections and power supplies. Hopefully they continue to do so.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No. It's their own proprietary design. No ICE amp that I know of can put out over 500wpc continuous for full bandwidth into 4 ohms like the Axiom amp I just tested does. Best of all, it does it at under 0.1% THD + N.

So the Rotel, Wyred, & D-Sonic 500W/8ohm Amps do NOT produce 1,000 Watts RMS into 4 ohms from 20Hz-20kHz & 0.1% THD?

 

[Pyrrho]

...
Pyrrho, if you think that most TVs have an equivalent upscaler to the Z7 (ABT2010) then you need to do more research. You can start here >> http://hdguru.com/date/2008/09/. You are best served having decent external upscaling and 1:1 pixel mapping to your TV.

...

I was writing about the upscaler in the RX-V665, NOT the RX-Z7. You might want to reread my post and you can see that I mentioned the model number of what I was writing about:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=539349&postcount=34

The upscaler in the RX-Z7 is irrelevant to what I posted.

 

[gene]

I'm curious to see what HK and Marantz roll out. They've generally stuck to good amp sections and power supplies. Hopefully they continue to do so.

Um have you seen the latest offering from H/K? I think Not!

So the Rotel, Wyred, & D-Sonic 500W/8ohm Amps do NOT produce 1,000 Watts RMS into 4 ohms from 20Hz-20kHz & 0.1% THD?

Not if they are based on ICE topology.

I was writing about the upscaler in the RX-V665, NOT the RX-Z7. You might want to reread my post and you can see that I mentioned the model number of what I was writing about:

I agree at a $1k or less price point on receivers, they shouldn't even try to offer fancy HDMI upscaling. Make the video pass thru and focus on amp quality.

 

[emorphien]

Um have you seen the latest offering from H/K? I think Not!

I've been disappointed with what I've seen as well. Makes me love my trusty old 225 even more. That and it's not adorned with blue lights which I really dislike. Killed off Rotel when I was shopping components a few years ago and certainly would push me away from the otherwise very interesting Emotiva equipment.

 

[ned]

I agree at a $1k or less price point on receivers, they shouldn't even try to offer fancy HDMI upscaling. Make the video pass thru and focus on amp quality.

Video upscaling is a joke! Some uses descent chip like Reon/Realta but with very poor implementation.

 

[3db]

Well, finally.. an arguement that is long in coming. I often felt that manufacturers were too quick to jump on the features list, keeping the prices fairly constant with the new features so something had to give...unfortunately its been the amplifier sections and power supply.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Apples with apples.

The Yamaha RX-V2092 was not the replacement of the DSP-A3090.

A/V receiver vs Integrate amp is different.

The DSP-A1 was the replacement of the DSP-A3090.

And the RX-V2092 was the replacement of the RX-V2090 with the separate Dolby Digital decoder, the DDP-1.
And the RX-V2095 replaced the RX-V2092.

So, I don't think that it was accurate and fair to mentioned the RX-V2092 as the replacement of the DSP-A3090.
These two units are two separate entities.

____________________________________

But about the Onkyo TX-SR805 that was replaced by the TX-SR806?
Now, that's the best example of trading features for amplifier quality.

This is just my opinion.

_______
Bob

 

[gene]

The Yamaha RX-V2092 was not the replacement of the DSP-A3090.

A/V receiver vs Integrate amp is different.

The DSP-A1 was the replacement of the DSP-A3090.

And the RX-V2092 was the replacement of the RX-V2090 with the separate Dolby Digital decoder, the DDP-1.
And the RX-V2095 replaced the RX-V2092.

So, I don't think that it was accurate and fair to mentioned the RX-V2092 as the replacement of the DSP-A3090.
These two units are two separate entities.

Please re-read my article. I never said the 2092 was a replacement for the DSP A3090. Also the only difference between an integrated amp vs a receiver is the lack of a tuner in the former.

 

[gene]

Guys;

please participate in this thread if you prefer more audio centric receivers to be offered from your favorite brands:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=540539#post540539

 

[Lordoftherings]

Please re-read my article. I never said the 2092 was a replacement for the DSP A3090. Also the only difference between an integrated amp vs a receiver is the lack of a tuner in the former.

Hi Gene,

I did. And when I wanted to edit my post, I could not, there was no option to edit anymore. And this, only after 20 minutes or so. Very sad that you cannot edit your posts after such a short time.

Anyway, I apologise to you. And like you said on your original article, the 2092 came after the 3090, and was not his direct replacement, so I stand corrected.
Also the 3090 is 46.3 lbs, and the 2092 is 44.1 lbs, a difference of only 2 lbs.

The DSP-A1 is 50.6 lbs, so 4.3 lbs more than the 3090.

I agree with you about the very good sound quality and amplifier design of the DSP-A3090, the DSP-A1 and also the RX-V1 (with Burr-Brown top-of-the-line Dacs, the PCM-1704).
And according to a lot of people, the RX-V2092 sounded better than the
RX-V2095, which was his replacement.

Thank you Gene, and again I'm sorry for the misquote.

Regards,

_______
Bob


Note: By the way, Gene, did you see my question about x-overs, in the Yamaha RX-Z7 thread?

 

[mperfct]

Congrats on the engagdethd writeup!

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/03/24/as-receivers-pack-more-features-per-dollar-audioholics-question/

 

[sokrman14]

I am really glad that you guys addressed this issue. Its hard to find a good/inexpensive receiver these days that will do your speakers justice. If you want quality, you gotta pay for it

 

[hrana]

As someone who is helping a friend search for a modern A/V receiver I've noticed this trend of features over quality of power to be quite common. While looking at the specs of the Yamaha RX-V665, I found it interesting the power was only given at 1kHz. It doesn't take a dummy to question it but its a sad trend.

Anyway, my real question was the last image in the conclusion section of the article. It doesn't look like the back of a Meridian 861 nor does it look like a Theta Digital Casablanca. I'm curious. What model is that with the add-in card on top?

 

[VolksyGTI]

Anyway, my real question was the last image in the conclusion section of the article. It doesn't look like the back of a Meridian 861 nor does it look like a Theta Digital Casablanca. I'm curious. What model is that with the add-in card on top?

That is the ONKYO TX-NR1000/TX-NR5000E. Details here

 

[E-Lab]

Excellent article! I have been waiting years someone to address these concerns.

In my case I have been poking along with my Onkyo Integra 939 receiver running my Legacy Classics (4 ohm) in 2 channel mode. The processing is out of date (the D/A sounds good), but not a concern until I assemble a 5.1 or 7.1 system. The amplification is about the bare minimum for my speakers, but have often wondered how I'd fare using a Yamaha (or other) $600 receiver as a preamp, and using something like an Emotiva XPA-2 (or XPA-5). I hate the idea of throwing away a $2 to $4k receiver every few years just to update to the newest processing. I do not see any end in sight for this trend of ever changing processing and HDMI interface changes. Fortunately, it will be some time until I can put my HT system together, so I will have plenty of time to read and limp along with the old timer Onkyo.

Thanks again for the great article(s) Gene!