Trading Amplifier Quality for Features – A New Trend with A/V Receivers?

[engtaz]

Very well written topic. The scary thing is buying new gear and not having insight into what was omitted in the new unit. The pre amp out topic really makes buyers nervous about what's been omitted to the pre amp outs.

Thanks Gene

 

[GlocksRock]

It sounds like there is just less voltage coming from the preamp output section, is that all that is happening, is there more to it? I looked at the specs for several different yamaha units, some lower end, some mid, and some high end and there wasn't a whole lot of variance. I did however notice that the subwoofer preout from my RX-V663 says 1v, where the RX-V1800 is 2v, does that mean that sub out on the 663 is really 2 v, but since there are two sub outs that the voltage is just split between them, and if I used a y splitter to combine the pair to use with just one sub I would now have a 2 volt output?

 

[gene]

It sounds like there is just less voltage coming from the preamp output section, is that all that is happening, is there more to it? I looked at the specs for several different yamaha units, some lower end, some mid, and some high end and there wasn't a whole lot of variance. I did however notice that the subwoofer preout from my RX-V663 says 1v, where the RX-V1800 is 2v, does that mean that sub out on the 663 is really 2 v, but since there are two sub outs that the voltage is just split between them, and if I used a y splitter to combine the pair to use with just one sub I would now have a 2 volt output?

Output voltage is only part of the equation. Drive level in terms of what load impedance it can deliver that voltage is also important. Its important to note what impedance the manufacturer is rating the Voltage level to as well. Distortion and SNR are also important factors as well.

Splitting your sub out doesn't halve the voltage since its a parallel connection, unless the opamp cant drive half the impedance it will see from your two subs in parallel as a result. Ideally it should maintain the same voltage level. I once had 4 subs parallel connected to my Denon AVR-5805 sub out and it worked just fine. Mind you that is a flagship receiver with imnpeccable drive levels.

I recomend reading the following related article:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/loudspeaker-impedance-series-parallel-connection-basics

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The electrolytic caps are typically the only thing that degrade with age. You should get a good 15-20 years out of them before having to replace them. The more you use them, the longer they will last.

Amp technology from 10 years ago was very good so a linear a/b of 10 years ago will be much better on a $6k receiver than a $1k receiver with the same amp topology from the same company today.

I had Denon's very first pre-pro (bought used), I think the AVP-1? It only had DTS & DD, and it was THX-certified. This thing produced some serious "hissing" noise on the speakers compared to a new $550 HK receiver hooked up to the same amp.

My impression was that when it was new, the Denon AVP-1 must have had great SNR (rated @ 95dBA). But over time, the SNR must have gotten worse.

 

[mr-ben]

Gene - a very good article. Thank you.

 

[Wayde Robson]

Awesome article!

What I like is that obviously it's a topic that's been on people's minds but (maybe like me) you didn't want to say anything for fear of being the only guy in the room that thinks that way. Leave it to Gene to be fearless in that regard.

What I love about my Marantz sr-8002 is it's distinct lack of features. When I was in the market for an HDMI AVR I had this nagging mistrust of too many features (HQV video processing etc.) But I felt it was just a personal predjudice that had no real backing.

Yeah, it is sort-of just a predjudice but now I see that all of my fears about some of the very equipment I considered was founded in some reality.

 

[Pyrrho]

Awesome article!

What I like is that obviously it's a topic that's been on people's minds but (maybe like me) you didn't want to say anything for fear of being the only guy in the room that thinks that way. Leave it to Gene to be fearless in that regard.

What I love about my Marantz sr-8002 is it's distinct lack of features. When I was in the market for an HDMI AVR I had this nagging mistrust of too many features (HQV video processing etc.) But I felt it was just a personal predjudice that had no real backing.

Yeah, it is sort-of just a predjudice but now I see that all of my fears about some of the very equipment I considered was founded in some reality.

The added features do not hurt anything; it is the shortcuts on basic issues of performance that are a potential problem. Of course, reduced power isn't a problem if one does not need the extra power.

I find the new Yamaha compromises disturbing, though given that the RX-V663 is a great receiver for the money, it would not be easy for them to top it at its price point. Hopefully, they will decide that they have gone too far in cutting corners, and will do better with whatever comes next (after the RX-V665). If not, I will probably look for another brand the next time I buy a receiver (my current surround receiver and the one before were both Yamaha).

 

[gene]

In hindsight the 663 perhaps was too much amp for the money and Yamaha released it as such to gain marketshare. Still, the 665 at this price point is just sacrificing too much performance from what I am seeing. I will try to get one in for review to bench test it but its unlikely they will send me one if they see this article Maybe I can get the Audioholics E-store to send me a unit to test

 

[ned]

If you can't decode the new lossless format which are features of new receivers what good does a powerful amp do? You can at least use it as a pre-pro and get a better amp.

The Axiom digital amp is quite underrated 200watts x 7 to 8 ohms for almost $3.5K. Ice power amps are now widely available and more cost effective.

 

[PENG]

In hindsight the 663 perhaps was too much amp for the money and Yamaha released it as such to gain marketshare. Still, the 665 at this price point is just sacrificing too much performance from what I am seeing. I will try to get one in for review to bench test it but its unlikely they will send me one if they see this article Maybe I can get the Audioholics E-store to send me a unit to test

That would be great and may be after the bench test if the prepro side is good then you can sell it as a prepro only for half the price, or package it with a UPA-7 for under 1K.

 

[Scottfox]

Receiver upgraditis

I want to upgrade my current receiver(pio-816) to one that has HDMI switching & can decode lossless DD & DTS. I came across the new Yamaha 6240, which seemed to have everything I need at a VERY reasonable price. I'm OK with 5.1, because I don't really have space for a 7.1 speaker setup, & the WAF is just not worth the fight After studying it, I noticed some disturbing 'features'. First- you get good speaker connectors for the front L/R, but the remainder are Spring clips. Second- there is no option for speaker B, even at the exclusion of A. I need the 2nd for my Garage/Backyard speakers but the Yammy can't handle it. I also worry about getting all those extra features at the same price as last year. What is it going to do to the amp quality. I have classic Polk Monitor 10's up front, with Polk center & surrounds. Am I going to have less headroom now? I'm not worried about the bass, as I have a HSU sub dialed in at 10:00, so if the new receiver's sub out is lower, I can adjust at the sub.
I always considered the Onkyo 606 to be my ideal receiver. It has all the features I want & seems to have a solid amp. Price wise I've seen it for $449. I have seen the 6240 for $279 which is outstanding & easily in my budget. Should I hold out for the higher priced Onkyo? Since the 607 is coming out soon, maybe the 606 will go under $400.
I am 1 of the nuts who cares about sound quality, not just the bells & whistles. I have a HD-DVD player, HD cable from FIOS with a DVR, & plan to buy a BluRay player & WD-TV unit, so I will need all 4 HDMI ins. HELP!!
Should I pay extra for the Onkyo, or is $279 too good to pass up?

 

[gene]

The Axiom digital amp is quite underrated 200watts x 7 to 8 ohms for almost $3.5K. Ice power amps are now widely available and more cost effective.

While I agree the Axiom amp is pricey it is MUCH more powerful than any Ice module I've ever seen, especially when driving full power bandwidth into 4 ohm and less loads. The phase response on ICE is quite horrific but it was originally designed to be a subwoofer amp only. While ICE sounds quite good, better than it measures, the Axiom amp sounds much better to my ears. My review will be out next month. Stay tuned...

 

[ht_addict]

One thing I would like to see manufacturers do is start getting rid of the legacy interconnects. I use only 3 HDMI(HDPVR/PS3/HDDVD and onecomponent/RCA(for Wii). The rest are a waste.

 

[Pyrrho]

If you can't decode the new lossless format which are features of new receivers what good does a powerful amp do? You can at least use it as a pre-pro and get a better amp.

...

The thing is, both the RX-V663 and the newer less powerful RX-V665 can decode the new lossless formats. Both retail for exactly the same price.

From the article:

The upgrades for the new model (RX-V665) includes HDMI up-scaling to 1080p, HDMI pass thru to enable video when your receiver is turned off, and 2 more HDMI inputs. The downside is no s-video, one less optical input and a significantly reduction in power.

The upscaling is probably not important for anyone, because it is doubtful if it does a great job, which would mean there is no point to it. Every TV that can accept inputs that differ from its native format can convert to its native format, so the ONLY reason to have a receiver that can do this is if the receiver does a better job of it. (A lot of people are confused about that, but the reality is, paying for a cheap upconverter is a total waste of your money.) The HDMI pass through with the power off is something that some would like, but many of us use our receivers for the sound all the time, so it would not do us any good. The only thing extra that it has that someone like me would want are the extra HDMI inputs, but one can buy an HDMI switchbox, like the one from Oppo that can switch things automatically, so even this advantage isn't a deal breaker.

On the other hand, the advantages to the RX-V663 are S-Video inputs, more power, one more optical digital input (on the front panel), one more component video input, an extra pair of speaker connections, and two convenience outlets on the back (for plugging in power cords from things like CD players and such).

If I were buying one of these two receivers, there is no way I would be willing to pay as much for the new one as the older one.

 

[Jeepers]

Z5 ?!

One thing I would like to see manufacturers do is start getting rid of the legacy interconnects. I use only 3 HDMI(HDPVR/PS3/HDDVD and onecomponent/RCA(for Wii). The rest are a waste.

I couldn't agree more. I already mentioned this a while ago in the Z7 thread if my memory serves me well.
So take the Z11; keep the HDMI/component interconnects, remove the IPOD, Network, USB, radio, useless soundfields etc.. features, remove the upconversion/upscaling; remove the 4 presence channels, possibly make it a 5.2 amplifier (200 watts per channel at 8 ohms with the same quality and stability as the Z11 and no compromises); allow for BTB/WTW pass through, OSD overlay, decent remote and call it the Z5.
It won't find a lot of customers but then this also applies to the Z11 so what would Yamaha lose ? I would buy it immediately.

Gene, could you possibly persuade your Yamaha contacts ?

 

[Electone]

Pioneer is going the same route with its 2009 models as well. Whereas last year's VSX-1018AH-K was basically an Elite VXS-01 without THX certification and S-video support, the new VSX-1019 will have more in common with the lower 919 model. So, if you're a Pioneer fan looking for a new receiver, grab the remaining 1018s before they're all gone!

 

[nibhaz]

In hindsight the 663 perhaps was too much amp for the money and Yamaha released it as such to gain marketshare. Still, the 665 at this price point is just sacrificing too much performance from what I am seeing. I will try to get one in for review to bench test it but its unlikely they will send me one if they see this article Maybe I can get the Audioholics E-store to send me a unit to test

IMO this is probably the same line of thought that Onkyo used when they released the 805. You got a lot amplifier for your money. So much so, that it made it a hard sell for the two receivers higher up in their lineup. Then they roll out the 806 and we’ve find that it has gone on a 13.4 lbs. diet. The distortion level has been raised in order to reach the same rated power as the 805 as well. Yet it still maintains it THX Ultra2 certification, for what its worth, which to me says it’s still probably okay, but just not the same value…

What do you think Gene?

 

[emorphien]

I've admittedly never put much stock in a THX certification, so if that actually implies something really meaningful about the quality of the new receiver and its still being OK then I think I'd need independent verification.

Regardless my Harman Kardon AVR-225 is still chugging along although I need to jiggle the optical inputs on the rear once in a while :/ I need to actually look at that and figure out what's causing that. Maybe the connectors on the receiver have worn loose (I have new cables hoping that was the problem). Unfortunately the 225 is at its limit regarding connections and it does lack some things I'd like looking forward (particularly HDMI switching) so I know I will probably be upgrading it within the next 12-18 months at the soonest. Other than the flaky optical connections it's never done me wrong in the past 6ish years with almost daily extensive use.

 

[PaulF]

...As much as I like the amps of the RX-Z7, I'd take the amps in the DSP-A1 / RX-V1 anyday over them even though they are only rated to 110wpc vs 140wpc in the Z7.

After nine years I am planning to upgrade my trusty RX-V2095. This unit was second only, I think, to the DSP-A1 in Yamaha's receiver line up at the time.

When I compare the power amp specs the 2095 has lower distortion, more dynamic headroom and a higher damping factor. The amp also has better sensitivity on all inputs. The RX-Z7 has better THD and noise specs in the low signal sections which is to be expected. So while I need to upgrade to get some new features and flexibility (some simple like just needing more inputs), I don't think I'm getting anything more in terms of power amp performance. It leaves me wondering how Yamaha designates it's Z series products, by features or performance? Even the DACs in the Z7 appear to be the same as the 3900.

Other things have been removed, some long ago like the A/B speaker outputs as Scottfox mentions. So if, like me, you used this feature, it is equivalent to burning one zone with integrated amps.

I also don't like the removal of s-video. You will be hard pressed to find any recent stand-alone recording device with better than s-video input. They should keep s-video, at least for the recording loops. This may be one of the reasons I jump on the Z7, it may be the last in a line of receivers that support s-video.

Another useful feature Yamaha had was the BGV function. You could select a video source from your remote, then simply select an audio source and you could have a number of different audio sources playing over your chosen video. The Z7 appears to have a very limited BGV function.

Pyrrho, if you think that most TVs have an equivalent upscaler to the Z7 (ABT2010) then you need to do more research. You can start here >> http://hdguru.com/date/2008/09/. You are best served having decent external upscaling and 1:1 pixel mapping to your TV.

Gene, I look forward to your review of the Axiom A1400-8. I have looked at many class D amps but had missed this one. When I build my dedicated HT room there is no question I will use a class D multi-channel amp. However, looking at the layout of the Axiom, it looks like a mess. There are wires running everywhere! It has a grille at the top and bottom for ventilation yet all the boards are horizontally oriented. How does any airflow get through? This probably explains their 30 degs C temp rating which, for an amp that is 95% efficient, is rather poor. There is no separation or shielding between power and audio section. With class D amps throwing off so much RFI I have to wonder whether those wired from the back panel are the audio input wiring and what it's picking up along the way. Seems like they could reorient their boards or design a clean rear panel PCB and seriously shorten the audio path. Anyway, your review will tell...

Here is what I think is a better implementation of a MCH class D design >> http://www.nuforce.biz/gallery/MCH/pages/MCH-3SE-image4.htm

 

[ned]

While I agree the Axiom amp is pricey it is MUCH more powerful than any Ice module I've ever seen, especially when driving full power bandwidth into 4 ohm and less loads. The phase response on ICE is quite horrific but it was originally designed to be a subwoofer amp only. While ICE sounds quite good, better than it measures, the Axiom amp sounds much better to my ears. My review will be out next month. Stay tuned...

That's great. Are these the new re-designed Ice Amps from B&O?