Would someone mind updating me on the economy?

[MidnightSensi]

That's a very good question! I think the answer is no one knows. We have not had a proper accounting from the banks, and what's worse may be they can't give one. We really do need to know the indebtedness and who owes what to who. Finding this out may prove to be more difficult than unscrambling eggs. At the moment the banks don't even know which debts will be re payed and which ones won't.

We really need to have a good understanding of how these enormous trade imbalances have been covered. The government debt is easier to get a handle on.

However the fact remains, we are responsible for our personal debts. Collectively we as citizens are responsible for debt run up by government on our behalf, and the goods received not balanced by goods sold.

I think really global trade has grown at a rate that nobody can really keep a handle on. I honestly do not understand how it was all financed. But when I spoke with individuals at London's financial district at Canary Wharf last fall, they told me an awful lot of it was covered by American and European mortgage backed securities. I think that really generated the housing bubble and led to housing construction outstripping demand. That is why it seems that this crisis began in the housing sector. However I don't think it did really. Housing just became the avenue for hiding the issues.

I think that is why everyone thought that the housing problem would stay in the housing sector initially, not realizing it was a symptom of much deeper and more fundamental trouble.

Ah, so if its from person to person to person 100 times over, wouldn't they be able to trace that A needs to pay B and B needs to pay C and C needs to pay D and so on? It's that C defaults and then D, E, F, G, and so on won't get paid which was used to levarage a whole other alphabet and so on? So A knows it needs to pay B, but when A can't pay B, C doesn't really know that A was used to front for B.

So a mortgaged backed security is basically a bond that is backed by mortgages, so they let people into homes they couldn't afford to allow them to make more mortgaged backed security bonds?

This is so informative and helpful, I appreciate it.

 

[Tomorrow]

That's a very good question! I think the answer is no one knows. We have not had a proper accounting from the banks, and what's worse may be they can't give one. We really do need to know the indebtedness and who owes what to who. Finding this out may prove to be more difficult than unscrambling eggs. At the moment the banks don't even know which debts will be re payed and which ones won't.

We really need to have a good understanding of how these enormous trade imbalances have been covered. The government debt is easier to get a handle on.

However the fact remains, we are responsible for our personal debts. Collectively we as citizens are responsible for debt run up by government on our behalf, and the goods received not balanced by goods sold.

I think really global trade has grown at a rate that nobody can really keep a handle on. I honestly do not understand how it was all financed. But when I spoke with individuals at London's financial district at Canary Wharf last fall, they told me an awful lot of it was covered by American and European mortgage backed securities. I think that really generated the housing bubble and led to housing construction outstripping demand. That is why it seems that this crisis began in the housing sector. However I don't think it did really. Housing just became the avenue for hiding the issues.

I think that is why everyone thought that the housing problem would stay in the housing sector initially, not realizing it was a symptom of much deeper and more fundamental trouble.

Mark, I thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights on this matter. I'm afraid that I could not maintain the cautious tone that you express (if you can call your dire warning "cautious"). I fear, at least from an historical perspective, that we've already crossed the point of no return on this crisis and that chaotic times are certain.

Probably everyone here knows of my disgust at the excesses of both primary parties involved in U.S. governance. But the greed exposed by this crisis resides not only in the hated "big business" element, or wall street, or mortgage lenders, or liberal voices that call for governmental giving ("because we're the richest country in the world"), or conservatives that aren't. It's endemic within ourselves and our culture. We've been a pampered and spoiled society, primarily since WWII, and now we're going to get a lesson the old fashioned way. "We earned it!"

I can't add much to your great summary of the current economic status, except for the following:

China holds somewhere in the neighborhood of $1 Trillion worth of U.S. Treasury Bonds. They, in effect, have the world by the throat. If they call in those assets, we're bankrupt. If we're bankrupt, the entire globe is bankrupt (for some of the reasons you've already touched upon). The scary part is that is just one small issue amongst the massive and incomprehensible economic problems we face.

And you touched upon world trade. There is an economic indicator of the global financial condition that is seeing increasing use, the BDI or Baltic Dry Index. Basically, it accounts for all the world's shipping fleets that carry raw materials from country to country, continent to continent. It is a manipulation-free measure of world imports such as grains, ores, steel, and all sorts of imported products for things like food and product manufacturing. These items ship around the globe...and especially to the U.S. (As you pointed out, we actually manufacture very little here, now. Our economy is primarily based upon the value of U.S. real estate...housing values which have seen the effects of the Ponzi setup.) While we do make a few food products, autos, etc, we import clothing, gasoline, various fuels and, well, just about everything necessary for our current lifestyles.

The bad news is that the BDI has virtually ground to a halt. In a very short time...measured in months, the BDI shows roughly a 90 decrease in world trade. This portends unprecedented disaster for us and the entire world, for that matter. Food is potentially the worst issue to be faced. Products are not being shipped because there aren't orders being placed for them. Home/country protectionist legislation and attitudes will exascebate this problem. This will likely amount to unbelievable and unprecedented unemployment worldwide and eventually massive food shortages (among other not-so-pleasant things).

So call me Mr. Serious And Negative, but I'm stocking up on bulk and easily stored food items and I suggest my friends on AH do the same. Maybe this will turn into another Y2K. A big to-do over nothing. Let us all hope so.

 

[Tarub]

This recession thing is GLOBAL. In Dubai, you'll go to jail if you can't pay on your loans. That is why people just abandoned their luxury cars or houses and fled the country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/world/middleeast/12dubai.html?_r=1&ref=world

 

[TLS Guy]

Mark, I thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights on this matter. I'm afraid that I could not maintain the cautious tone that you express (if you can call your dire warning "cautious"). I fear, at least from an historical perspective, that we've already crossed the point of no return on this crisis and that chaotic times are certain.

Probably everyone here knows of my disgust at the excesses of both primary parties involved in U.S. governance. But the greed exposed by this crisis resides not only in the hated "big business" element, or wall street, or mortgage lenders, or liberal voices that call for governmental giving ("because we're the richest country in the world"), or conservatives that aren't. It's endemic within ourselves and our culture. We've been a pampered and spoiled society, primarily since WWII, and now we're going to get a lesson the old fashioned way. "We earned it!"

I can't add much to your great summary of the current economic status, except for the following:

China holds somewhere in the neighborhood of $1 Trillion worth of U.S. Treasury Bonds. They, in effect, have the world by the throat. If they call in those assets, we're bankrupt. If we're bankrupt, the entire globe is bankrupt (for some of the reasons you've already touched upon). The scary part is that is just one small issue amongst the massive and incomprehensible economic problems we face.

And you touched upon world trade. There is an economic indicator of the global financial condition that is seeing increasing use, the BDI or Baltic Dry Index. Basically, it accounts for all the world's shipping fleets that carry raw materials from country to country, continent to continent. It is a manipulation-free measure of world imports such as grains, ores, steel, and all sorts of imported products for things like food and product manufacturing. These items ship around the globe...and especially to the U.S. (As you pointed out, we actually manufacture very little here, now. Our economy is primarily based upon the value of U.S. real estate...housing values which have seen the effects of the Ponzi setup.) While we do make a few food products, autos, etc, we import clothing, gasoline, various fuels and, well, just about everything necessary for our current lifestyles.

The bad news is that the BDI has virtually ground to a halt. In a very short time...measured in months, the BDI shows roughly a 90 decrease in world trade. This portends unprecedented disaster for us and the entire world, for that matter. Food is potentially the worst issue to be faced. Products are not being shipped because there aren't orders being placed for them. Home/country protectionist legislation and attitudes will exascebate this problem. This will likely amount to unbelievable and unprecedented unemployment worldwide and eventually massive food shortages (among other not-so-pleasant things).

So call me Mr. Serious And Negative, but I'm stocking up on bulk and easily stored food items and I suggest my friends on AH do the same. Maybe this will turn into another Y2K. A big to-do over nothing. Let us all hope so.

Thank you for your kind comments. Yes, the Baltic Dry Index showed bad trouble last fall. Manufacturers and retailers are raising cash by selling inventories at steep discounts. Members rejoicing at these low prices should not. They are a sign of deep trouble. When the inventories are gone, you are going to see non existent product and high prices.

I thought the picture of no ships going out on the ebb tide of a major industrial river in the South East of England spoke more directly to the situation than talking about the Baltic Dry Index.

My advice, if you really think you do need to buy any gear right now, is to only buy really good gear, that is built to last, or don't buy it all.

Members who read my posts know I'm opposed to junk. If EVER there was a time to avoid junk, it is NOW.

 

[MDS]

When I was even younger, I thought when you buy a stock, you are lending a company your money to use to develop new stuff, and then over time when they profit from your money their stock should go up and pay you some extra money? Is that how a stock works?

A stock is equity - meaning ownership. So if the company has 1,000 shares outstanding and you buy 100 shares you own 10% of the company. Buying a companies bonds is lending the company money, just as buying US treasury bills or bonds is lending the federal government money.

The market capitalization is the number of shares outstanding multiplied by the current price. So when you see a fact like 'GE is a $500 billion dollar company', it means that the number of its shares times the market price adds up to $500 billion. That value of course fluctuates as the price increases and decreases.

The company itself will also 'own' shares of its own stock. When the company goes public it typically doesn't sell all of its shares. So the company can make money off of its own stock as the price increases and may sell some from time to time or offer some of the shares as stock options to employees (that's how the excecutives get rich!).

When a company needs more capital they can also create more shares 'out of thin air', just as the federal reserve creates more dollars out of thin air. Doing so dilutes the holdings of existing shareholders because now there are more shares outstanding and earnings per share, a key measure used to value a stock, goes down.

Some stocks pay dividends which are paid out of company earnings and in a sense is like interest on a savings account, but equity stakes depend on the price of the stock increasing to make a profit (unless you are shorting the stock, then the stock must fall to have a profitable trade).

How come we can buy a stock on Monday and get a huge swing in value by Friday?

For valid reasons as well as invalid reasons. If the company announces a huge earnings increase, investors will bid the price of the stock up but sometimes prices get bid up for no good reason at all - like with the tech stock bubble where any company at all was bid up even when that company had never made a dime.

Likewise, investors will bid lower and cause the price to drop if the company has an earnings shortfall, a product failure, announces layoffs, etc.

The key point that many people don't understand is that the stock market is an auction market. The stock is worth what investors will pay at any given time. If a given stock ended the prior day at $100 per share and then bad news is announced (real or perceived), investors might bid only $80 the very next day. If anyone hits that bid, now all shares are worth $80.

Is that because of these derived values, of people shorting stocks assuming it will go down because business is bad, so basically they make money off of betting it goes down? So is buying a stock betting it goes up, and then if more people buy it you 'win'?

Yes, shorting a stock is a bet the price will go down. You borrow the shares from the brokerage and pay the current market price. If the price drops, you then buy them back at the new lower price and your profit is the difference between what you sold them for (when you initiated the short) and the price you paid to buy them back and return the to broker. A put option is another way to do the same thing.

Shorting can be dangerous because your upside is capped (the most the stock can do on the downside is fall to zero) but your downside could be infinite if the price keeps rising. You have to maintain a 'margin', which is typically 50%, so as the price keeps increasing and your margin becomes less than 50%, you get the dreaded 'margin call' you may have heard about. 'Shorts' get a bad rep for driving a stock price down but in reality they serve a purpose. It is the shorts that discover overvalued and/or fraudulent companies and effectively punish them. I've only shorted one time in my life, but I was successful.

Going 'long' on a stock (buying) is a bet the price will increase. If it does and you sell, you pocket the difference between what you paid and what you just sold it for, minus any transaction costs to the broker.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Thanks, that's very helpful.

I wonder what will give in America to allow us to manufacturer more stuff and become more valuable. I assume that's really the only long term fix, is to manufacturer stuff people want to buy rather than all this playing with money we do. Will wages re-adjust back to a much lower level? Will we be more like Germany was around WWII? I guess I'm asking how broke we are going to get before everything levels out?

Overseas has to be hurting too, like Dubai and such mentioned earlier. I heard their biggest company lost 60% of its value in a few months. And how can China be doing good if people aren't buying their exports?

 

[majorloser]

So call me Mr. Serious And Negative, but I'm stocking up on bulk and easily stored food items and I suggest my friends on AH do the same. Maybe this will turn into another Y2K. A big to-do over nothing. Let us all hope so.

Large scale wars have been started during such economic times.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Should I really be stocking up on canned goods and stuff? Or is that like completely overboard?

 

[majorloser]

Should I really be stocking up on canned goods and stuff? Or is that like completely overboard?

No, just ammunition.

But then again, you're in Miami. You should already have an ample supply on-hand.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks, that's very helpful.

I wonder what will give in America to allow us to manufacturer more stuff and become more valuable. I assume that's really the only long term fix, is to manufacturer stuff people want to buy rather than all this playing with money we do. Will wages re-adjust back to a much lower level? Will we be more like Germany was around WWII? I guess I'm asking how broke we are going to get before everything levels out?

Overseas has to be hurting too, like Dubai and such mentioned earlier. I heard their biggest company lost 60% of its value in a few months. And how can China be doing good if people aren't buying their exports?

Yes all this silly trading is part of the problem, especially short selling which should be illegal. I think these hedge funds need winding up, and throwing on the ash bin of history also.

How bad this will get I can't tell you. The banks refuse to open their books. The stock market is falling on the very suggestion we have to look. Well we do have to look.

It may be that it is not as bad as people fear and we can borrow our way out and stabilize the banks. This can happen if our debt does not get to too great a percentage of GDP. I personally think we are pushing the limit right now.

On the other hand it may be that the banks are so broke you can not responsibly borrow our way out of it.

If that happens we can try and negotiate a write off of some of the debt. Most of this debt has been bought by foreigners, especially Arabs.

If things can not get worked out, then we will rapidly join the ranks of the Third World, with all the images that go with it. More likely however it will lead to war.

Remember WW II was called by Churchill the most preventable of all wars.

The treaty of Versailles signed in the Hall of Mirrors on 11/11/1918, was an unjust armistice.
It led to the impoverishment of Germany and, as a consequence desperate social conditions. Into the people's suffering strode Adolph Hitler.

In the depression protectionism reared its head. Japan was an emerging market like Russia and China now. Japan was locked out of the US market. Pearl Harbor was the result.

So if we can't pay our debts, and or turn protectionist, we run the risk of attack from both Russia and China. This is why getting international resolution of these problems is so vital. Hilary Clinton has a huge responsibility right now.

Hopefully the Obama administration will stick to its guns and inspect the banks books.

Now I have been a life long Republican, but I did vote for President Obama. The reason is that he likely has the necessary social skills, civility and graces to have a fruitful discussions with foreign governments over what may well be vital, intense and difficult decisions for the whole world.

Now unpalatable as it will be to many, it will very likely prove necessary to nationalize a lot of the financial sector, and may be some of the industrial sector for a period of time, and enter an era of a very controlled economy.

And yes, you are right, we do have to return to an era of production of goods of value. However protectionism is not an option, for the reasons stated above. The result is that wages and benefits have to be comparable around the globe. This financial crisis is very much to do with trying to escape that reality.

 

[TLS Guy]

Should I really be stocking up on canned goods and stuff? Or is that like completely overboard?

No! Relax! These problems are serious, but will play out of a period of time, so we can all review our options as the crisis evolves.

If it does come to stocking food, trust me, you won't be able to stock enough to get through to the other side.

 

[MidnightSensi]

No, just ammunition.

But then again, you're in Miami. You should already have an ample supply on-hand.

Yeah, I have rough skin around one spot on my waistline from carrying my gun everyday where the grip rubs against my skin.

Yes all this silly trading is part of the problem, especially short selling which should be illegal. I think these hedge funds need winding up, and throwing on the ash bin of history also.

How bad this will get I can't tell you. The banks refuse to open their books. The stock market is falling on the very suggestion we have to look. Well we do have to look.

If the banks get bailouts from the government, don't they have to take a look?

It may be that it is not as bad as people fear and we can borrow our way out and stabilize the banks. This can happen if our debt does not get to too great a percentage of GDP. I personally think we are pushing the limit right now.

On the other hand it may be that the banks are so broke you can not responsibly borrow our way out of it.

If that happens we can try and negotiate a write off of some of the debt. Most of this debt has been bought by foreigners, especially Arabs.

If things can not get worked out, then we will rapidly join the ranks of the Third World, with all the images that go with it. More likely however it will lead to war.

Remember WW II was called by Churchill the most preventable of all wars.

The treaty of Versailles signed in the Hall of Mirrors on 11/11/1918, was an unjust armistice.
It led to the impoverishment of Germany and, as a consequence desperate social conditions. Into the people's suffering strode Adolph Hitler.

In the depression protectionism reared its head. Japan was an emerging market like Russia and China now. Japan was locked out of the US market. Pearl Harbor was the result.

So if we can't pay our debts, and or turn protectionist, we run the risk of attack from both Russia and China. This is why getting international resolution of these problems is so vital. Hilary Clinton has a huge responsibility right now.

Hopefully the Obama administration will stick to its guns and inspect the banks books.

Now I have been a life long Republican, but I did vote for President Obama. The reason is that he likely has the necessary social skills, civility and graces to have a fruitful discussions with foreign governments over what may well be vital, intense and difficult decisions for the whole world.

Now unpalatable as it will be to many, it will very likely prove necessary to nationalize a lot of the financial sector, and may be some of the industrial sector for a period of time, and enter an era of a very controlled economy.

And yes, you are right, we do have to return to an era of production of goods of value. However protectionism is not an option, for the reasons stated above. The result is that wages and benefits have to be comparable around the globe. This financial crisis is very much to do with trying to escape that reality.

Holy ****! Why isn't that on the news?! All they say is that it will get better when the housing market stabalizes.... and that general statement seems to comfort the viewers...

 

[TLS Guy]

No, just ammunition.

But then again, you're in Miami. You should already have an ample supply on-hand.

I have to say that this situation is so serious, you can't make comments like that even in jest.

Round here there is continuous talk of guns and arming to the teeth. I'm constantly asked, and not in jest, when I'm going to arm.

If people start to turn on each other then we are really finished. This is a time for people to stand together and help each other, NOT fight each other.

One of my biggest fears is that after having had the soft life for so long, whether people will really stick together as things get more difficult.

I have made a lot of smart remarks in my time, and have never been a great one for political correctness. However this is a time to watch what we say, and only give considered opinions. We should not try and hide unpleasant facts, but the emphasis has to be on how we all get through this.

You and I have pointed to the risk of armed conflict before this is over, and I consider the fear is legitimate. If it should happen that we need a draft, we have to accept it. If it it leads to strop and demonstrations, then things will go badly. However before that, and after that, should it happen, we all need to stay calm and resolved. Above all stick together and do not fight each other.

 

[Tomorrow]

I have to say that this situation is so serious, you can't make comments like that even in jest.

Round here there is continuous talk of guns and arming to the teeth. I'm constantly asked, and not in jest, when I'm going to arm.

If people start to turn on each other then we are really finished. This is a time for people to stand together and help each other, NOT fight each other.

One of my biggest fears is that after having had the soft life for so long, whether people will really stick together as things get more difficult.

I have made a lot of smart remarks in my time, and have never been a great one for political correctness. However this is a time to watch what we say, and only give considered opinions. We should not try and hide unpleasant facts, but the emphasis has to be on how we all get through this.

You and I have pointed to the risk of armed conflict before this is over, and I consider the fear is legitimate. If it should happen that we need a draft, we have to accept it. If it it leads to strop and demonstrations, then things will go badly. However before that, and after that, should it happen, we all need to stay calm and resolved. Above all stick together and do not fight each other.

Mark, you are very mature and measured in your comments. Unfortunately, most of the population is not. THAT is what worries many. The possibilities are quite dire and require a good measure of the civility and calmness you advocate...but also, I think, a heaping of preparedness.

And you are correct...stockpiling food is not so necessary in the short run. But having the determination to survive at the least your 3rd world economy scenario will require forethought and some preparation. Food will at least get more expensive in the short run which augers for some stocking now.

I regret that this veers away from the OP, but I must add something regarding the firearms issue. There are already bills, perhaps currently in both houses of congress (one for certain), which if passed will impact gun ownership in a negative way and provide increased control, if not set up a situation for massive government control over citizen ownership. That was a bad idea at the beginning of the Third Reich. It is a technique utilized by dictatorships. And it's a bad idea for us. I see any gun grab as a method of protecting not individuals (as it will be argued)...but to protect and serve the wishes of government. While I agree with you that care must be taken in dealing with solutions to this economic mess, and that we don't need to be screaming "revolution" at ourselves, firearms advocacy is not a bad thing, in and of itself.

 

[Tomorrow]

Holy ****! Why isn't that on the news?! All they say is that it will get better when the housing market stabalizes.... and that general statement seems to comfort the viewers...

Sensi, Obama and others, both liberal and conservative can't really tell anyone how or if the bailout or any financial restructuring plan is going to work. These are unprecedented times ... where no man has gone before. Listen to how they phrase their speeches. There always is a large measure of both uncertainty and hope.

The above statement by TLSGuy is like that. He truthfully forewarns of the potential for great disaster, but also speaks of hope that the situation can yet be righted. Calmness and offering hopeful comfort is the best they can do. These are VERY serious issues that no one is certain how to resolve. That's the best that can be said about these times.

 

[majorloser]

I have to say that this situation is so serious, you can't make comments like that even in jest.

It's not a joke. If you didn't live in South Florida during hurricanes Andrew and Wilma you wouldn't understand.

There was plenty of people forced to guard their homes from looter after Andrew. After hurricane Wilma they station cops at every open gas station to keep order. Looters were travelling neighborhoods to steal alluminum pool enclosures, fallen alluminum sheds and alluminum shutters for recycle value. And let's not forget all the fights started at Home Depot and Lowes over repair materials.

You could also look at New Orleans for an example of the "fall of civilization".

It is truly sad, but mankind ALWAYS lower themselves to the level of primatives when basic needs aren't met. Our society as a whole has come to expect the government to provide for them when in need. But time and time again it has been proven that the government is not in a position to provide much more than basic short term assistance. They are not in a positon to provide instant response to major emergencies nor can they provide large scale law and order without mobilizing the military.

As for stocking up on supplies, there is no reason anybody in the USA shouldn't maintain some dry good supplies for an emergency. If nothing more than to be prepared for a pandemic or natural disaster. The federal government has recommended preparedness for years. This is not something new.
http://www.who.int/csr/resources/publications/influenza/WHO_CDS_CSR_GIP_2005_4/en/
http://www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/individual/checklist.html
http://www.fema.gov/areyouready/index.shtm
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/HAW2/english/disaster_prevention.shtml
http://www.ready.gov/america/index.html



If we truly enter into a depression, it won't matter how much food you have on-hand.

 

[Tomorrow]

If we truly enter into a depression, it won't matter how much food you have on-hand.

It depends upon where you live. For a variety of reasons, rural places will fare much better than urban areas.

 

[majorloser]

It depends upon where you live. For a variety of reasons, rural places will fare much better than urban areas.

Some how I can't picture you with a garden in your backyard for food.
Roadkill deer, maybe.

 

[alexwakelin]

Let me see if I follow:
So originally we were making stuff (to my understanding some of America's draw originally was that our labor was cheaper than Europe), then after WWII we started to increase production more with all the new factories and technology...but then when our standard of living went up we wanted more...higher wages and cheaper items... which started to bring actual production overseas. So now we had some production here, and then increasing production where labor was cheaper. We wanted high wages, really safe/clean/regulated factories here, and lots of stuff, so we moved more and more over there. To meet the production, we started to import oil to further decrease energy costs (to drive our cars, electronics, refridgerators, lights, etc.). So now we have all this stuff, and services like health care and insurance...which are important but not something you can feel and touch and assign a direct value to...

Immediately following WWII, the US was the world's largest creditor nation (we are now the world's largest debtor nation). The introduction of the GI bill and government backed mortgages is what really started the housing boom and the "American Dream". The millions of people that fought in the war could now afford college and a home. America emerged from the war relatively unscathed while most of Europe had to rebuild. American factories shifted from producing goods for the war, to producing consumer goods, many of which were sent overseas until their factories were rebuilt. There was a huge surplus of cheap steel and oil folowing WWII. Most of it was put towards building cars and other consumer goods. The government wanted to avoid the enonomic downturn that immediately follows many wars. This is why the 50's was a time of such great prosperity. This is just a little background information on how most people's vision of the American Dream came to be. Our solution to many problems is to build, buy and spend. It didn't work in the 50's, as we saw with the decline of the auto industry and American steel in the 70's. It didn't work this time either, the housing boom was not sustainable. That is the problem with our flawed vision of what the American Dream should be. People still want to live the ideal lifestyle that was ingrained into people's minds in the 50's.

 

[Tomorrow]

Some how I can't picture you with a garden in your backyard for food.
Roadkill deer, maybe.

LOL, nothing like some good venison ala Michelin! (Better'n gator meat, I'll wager! ) But I remind you my friend, we had forty 1200 lb. elk nipping at our back fence last week, that slugs are said to be mighty tasty when battered and fried eek...and then there are these in abundance.....