Repair, buy, or DIY...

[WmAx]

Hi Chris,
Odd (to me) that one would get such exponential benefits at that price threshold but almost none below. Are the components below this threshold of that much lower build quality than their factory counterparts, or is it simply a matter of no real gains to be made but they'll sound about the same?

Not odd, really. It's not a case where you have a certain linear scale of products available. The Kappa driver specified is actually a great value - it offers extraordinary performance and flexibility for it's price - and in all - it can make the basis of a super price on object sound quality system. The same goes for the amp. Under the price point, critical features are missing.

Now, to a degree, I can offer improvements for more cost, if very specific characteristics are wanted(example: more SPL, lower extension, etc.). But you will not improve over the SQ of this system if used within it's linear limitations(which are considerable - and on the order of 2-3x the linear SPL ability of ANY commercial product I know of anywhere near this price range).

I've followed a few build threads of the sub you mention, and it does look very enticing. Judging by the feedback it gets, it sounds even better. Has anyone had this sub for a long time? I"d be curious about the long-term feedback too.

The longest owner would be avaserfi, whom built it originally on my suggestion, then posted some specific cut lists that people have been building from.

So I saw the driver listed for about $175, and the amp for about $245 shipped. Does this sound about right for new items?
(http://www.parts-express.com//pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-752 same one you mentioned?)

Thanks for weighing in.
Padraic

Not that amp. The one I recommend is: http://www.oaudio.com/500W_SUBAMP.html

This is because the O Audio version has been tested by credible 3rd party, and is verified to be of very high build quality(unlike most plate amps), is made in North America(Canada), and very critically, it has a variable subsonic filter(this protects the driver under port tuning - a critical feature for high powered ported systems).

-Chris

 

[Pyrrho]

To clarify (and rectify, in some cases) my own "labelling" process I think things will be very clear if I refer to my amp as the Yamaha, and the sub and its amp as the Velo(dyne). Your advice seems pretty clear but this will eliminate any doubt. So for example when you say

"As for the subwoofer amplifier, with it hooked up..."​

I am assuming you mean hooked up to the Yamaha, and plugged in.

Yes.

...you would measure it at its output (i.e., where it connects to the woofer). You would want to use "clips", not simply "probes", on the meter, as you will want to attach it and set the meter and then turn the amplifier on.​

.

..In other words, carelessness or mistakes can result in injury or death, though most likely, these will not happen if you proceed with some degree of sense and caution. But, of course, I cannot promise you that you will exercise sufficient care, so beware and proceed at your own risk, or just stop now and forget about testing the amplifier yourself.​

Right, I've come to that conclusion too. If I don't feel comfortable proceeding then I stop. I"ve got kids and a very active lifestyle that I'd like to maintain. That said, I feel like I'm getting the kind of feedback I was hoping for so I'll take it slowly, augmenting with other sources here and online.

For testing for DC in the output, you would hook up the meter with it set for reading voltage. Start at the highest voltage setting, and once the amplifier is on, turn it to lower settings until you get a reading. Have no input hooked up to the amplifier.​

Now in the above paragraph, does the sub need to be connected to the Yamaha, or just plugged in and turned on after the meter is hooked up?

Just plugged in, without being connected to the Yamaha. That is what is meant by "Have no input hooked up to the amplifier.", where I was referring to the subwoofer amplifier.

If the amplifier were perfect, you would have 0 volts, but we live in the real world, so it might have something like half a volt. If it is more than that, do not hook up one of your speakers to test it, as that is a sign that the amplifier is sending too much DC to the speaker. I don't know if the above is clear enough; I recommend searching online for more information on this topic, just to be very clear, or simply take the subwoofer to an authorized repair shop. Before doing that, you might want to ask what it will cost to replace both the woofer and the amplifier, as that will give you the maximum that it should cost for getting your subwoofer up and running again, if you choose to do that.

"Assuming that there is no significant DC, you could try hooking up one of your speakers to the subwoofer amplifier"​

I assume this is the same thing as a speaker-level hookup that many subs are capable of? In which case I'd still need to hook up to the Yamaha simply to access an output-DVD or cassette player for instance. True?​

No, it is not the speaker level hookup that many subs are capable of. I mean, hook up a regular speaker as a substitute for the subwoofer, so that the subwoofer amplifier would be driving this regular speaker. You would, of course, need to have the subwoofer amplifier hooked up, in the usual way, to the Yamaha receiver, and put something on that has bass. You will also want to reread the precautions I originally gave. Basically, if the subwoofer amplifier is functioning properly, it will drive an ordinary speaker as well as just the woofer. You will want to keep the volume down, in case the regular speaker cannot handle all of the power of the subwoofer amplifier, but it should not otherwise damage the regular speaker. However, as I previously warned, if the subwoofer amplifier is not functioning properly, and if it is outputting significant DC, it can damage a woofer, just like your subwoofer seems to be damaged.

but if you made a mistake in your DC test, you could easily destroy the woofer in the speaker you hook up. If you choose to do this anyway, you should get sound when the subwoofer amplifier has an input. Obviously, you would try this with the subwoofer's volume control turned down low, as you don't want to destroy the speaker with excessive power. If you got undistorted bass that way, then it would show that the amplifier is working. It would then cause one to wonder what caused the woofer to burn out, though if you had the level turned way up on the subwoofer just before it failed, it is possible that the amplifier design is such that it can give excessive power to the woofer. Frankly, though, I would be surprised if your amplifier is working properly. My guess is that the amp failed, causing the woofer to be damaged. I freely admit that that is a guess, but as I said before, woofers do not burn themselves out; something does it to them.

It is entirely possible that you will get no output at all from the amplifier, as it is possible that, when it failed, there was a surge of power destroying the woofer, and then complete failure of the amplifier. If that is the case, then hooking something up to it would be perfectly safe, and you would get no sound. But if the amplifier is outputting DC, it will destroy woofers.

I would talk with Velodyne about the cost of replacing both the woofer and the amplifier, to see if that would be a reasonable cost or not.
Yes, I'm going to email them tonight or tomrrow.

As far as making a new subwoofer is concerned, you will need to ask someone else about that. You might be able to use the subwoofer cabinet that you already have, but the woofer you select would need to have the appropriate parameters for that size box. Again, you will have to ask someone else about that.​

Good thing I started investigating these forums-I would have assumed any 10" driver would work fine.

For buying a new subwoofer already made, I don't have any advice in your price range; you would need to ask someone else. But if you could go just a bit higher, you could buy:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm​

Thanks for that. I've been keeping my eyes on the B-stock page and also on some classified pages (Audiogon, AVS). Who knows tho, maybe I can wait it out and get a solid sub for the 5 or 600 the entry level good subs seem to cost, not inlcuding the DIYs. I'm curious how the DIY kits sold at PartsExpress stack up against similarly-priced factory subs.


Thanks Pyrrho.

 

[Pyrrho]

Ok, so the battery test (1.5V or "D" battery) yielded no movement whatsoever of the woofer.

Checked resistance (with no unwanted electroshock therapy) with two different meters and got a range, from the highest reading of .38V to the lowest of about .14. It seemed to be jumping around for awhile there. I got those readings on the meter after starting at the highest setting of 1000 and seeing nothing, and dialing down to 20. Both meters were within the ranges posted.

As you guys surmised, it seems that the driver is definitely shot, but I'm not sure about the amp. As you mentioned Pyrrho, it doesn't seem logical that the driver would burn itself out. What other possibilities exist other than the amp?

Padraic

You are either doing something wrong, or you are misstating what you are doing. Resistance is not measured in V.

The options for why the woofer is damaged are 3:

1. The amplifier malfunctioned and damaged it.
2. The amplifier is capable of more power than the woofer can handle, and was turned up loud enough to damage it.
3. The woofer was defective, and easily damaged in a situation that should not have damaged it.

Strictly speaking, 3 would be a subset of 2, but it should be considered separately, as a defective woofer is one that is not up to spec, and, hopefully, a replacement would be, so that 2 may no longer apply after the woofer is replaced

I would think that the most likely cause is 1, but it is not the only possible cause of the woofer being blown.

 

[padraic]

Maybe a bit of both. The vernacular is still a ways off I think. I was checking DC in the output, as you suggested in an earlier post. "For testing for DC in the output, you would hook up the meter with it set for reading voltage..."

Ohms should be the units used when I refer to resistance I realize. To clarify, as I look at the DMM I was in the DC V section, not in the ohms section, on the lower left on these two models. (I assume most $10-$30 DMMs are laid out the same way for the most part.

I've been speaking to David Santos over at Velodyne and he was quite surprised to hear that the driver had blown--he hasn't seen a CT speaker fail. Originally he had thought of replacing just the driver but now I may just send or drop off the whole unit so they can further test the amp. Had a quote of about $45 for the driver, so the cost so far is certainly reasonable. I may go that route and just start putting some coin away for an HSU or an SVS, or more intriguingly, the DIY Infinity Kappa. With my schedule I couldn't get around to it for awhile anyway. My original idea of just replacing the driver and the amp wouldn't be feasible as I wouldn't know where to begin to spec out the components for that ported cabinet. Lots of reading to do in the coming months. Good stuff.

 

[padraic]

Not odd, really. It's not a case where you have a certain linear scale of products available. The Kappa driver specified is actually a great value - it offers extraordinary performance and flexibility for it's price - and in all - it can make the basis of a super price on object sound quality system. The same goes for the amp. Under the price point, critical features are missing.

Now, to a degree, I can offer improvements for more cost, if very specific characteristics are wanted(example: more SPL, lower extension, etc.). But you will not improve over the SQ of this system if used within it's linear limitations(which are considerable - and on the order of 2-3x the linear SPL ability of ANY commercial product I know of anywhere near this price range).



The longest owner would be avaserfi, whom built it originally on my suggestion, then posted some specific cut lists that people have been building from.



Not that amp. The one I recommend is: http://www.oaudio.com/500W_SUBAMP.html

This is because the O Audio version has been tested by credible 3rd party, and is verified to be of very high build quality(unlike most plate amps), is made in North America(Canada), and very critically, it has a variable subsonic filter(this protects the driver under port tuning - a critical feature for high powered ported systems).

-Chris

I'm going to keep my eye on these components. Given your history with them, what do you think would be a good price to pay for them? (full price quality assurances aside)

Have you, or anyone you know, ever dealt with Sigmaenterprises? They seem to have the best deal on the woofer so far. Any store recommendations in the US or Canada (I have lots of family there) would be much appreciated.

Padraic

 

[WmAx]

I'm going to keep my eye on these components. Given your history with them, what do you think would be a good price to pay for them? (full price quality assurances aside)

Have you, or anyone you know, ever dealt with Sigmaenterprises? They seem to have the best deal on the woofer so far. Any store recommendations in the US or Canada (I have lots of family there) would be much appreciated.

Padraic

Including shipping, $180 to $190 each is a great price for the woofer. The amp is $230 plus shipping from O Audio. I am not sure who else carries this exact O Audio model(and I am only recommending the specific O Audio model if you go the plate amp route). If you build stereo pair of the subs(which provides higher potential quality for music use), then I would tend to recommend the Behringer Ep2500 pro audio amplifier and the external Behringer DCX2496 digital xover/E.Q. system. The DCX allows for higher quality sound due to it's sophisticated E.Q. and crossovers. But if this sub is mainly for movies - ultimate SQ really is not a big deal.

I don't know anything about Sigma Enterprises. I would not personally risk a questionable outfit to save 20 or 30 bucks on a 180 buck order and risk the huge delays and customer service issues that will probably ensue....

I usually recommend Sonic Electronix for the woofer, but they are out of stock. Techronics is the next suggestion, but they cost like $10-$15 more, final cost.

techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=812&aff=45847

NOTE: When ordering from ANY of these discount dealers, always call and verify that the item is in stock; have them physically check before you make the order. It is not uncommon for their computer's inventory to be inaccurate, IME, and based upon web forum complaints. Failure to complete this verification of stock can result in you making an order and payment, and waiting weeks to months for the item to arrive if it's backordered.

-Chris

 

[padraic]

Ok, thanks for the figures. I just asked about Sigmaenterprises because they had over 80 customer feedback reviews (quite positive) so I figured someone on this site might have dealt with them.

I'm not too concerned about items on back order simply because I don't have the time, space or budget at this point to throw myself into the project. <Insert teeth-gnashing emoticon here>

Also, I will be using the sub mainly for music (then I can move the Velo into the office to round out the small system that I watch movies on in there). I've seen the Behringer Ep2500 threads also -- roughly comparable to the Axiom EP600, no? My mains are the little Axiom M3ti's. Love 'em.

Thanks for the info. When things start coming together I'm sure I'll be further asking a ton of questions.

Padraic

 

[WmAx]

-- roughly comparable to the Axiom EP600, no?

No. The Kappa Perfect subwoofer design is substantially superior. User Haloeb, I believe, has he EP600 and built a pair of the Kappa Perfect avaserfi version cabinets. He said the EP600 produced substantial noise where as the Perfect just produces loud and clean pure bass tones. You can start reading here, where he gives some comparisons: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45561&page=8

-Chris

 

[Pyrrho]

Maybe a bit of both. The vernacular is still a ways off I think. I was checking DC in the output, as you suggested in an earlier post. "For testing for DC in the output, you would hook up the meter with it set for reading voltage..."

Ohms should be the units used when I refer to resistance I realize. To clarify, as I look at the DMM I was in the DC V section, not in the ohms section, on the lower left on these two models. (I assume most $10-$30 DMMs are laid out the same way for the most part.

I've been speaking to David Santos over at Velodyne and he was quite surprised to hear that the driver had blown--he hasn't seen a CT speaker fail. Originally he had thought of replacing just the driver but now I may just send or drop off the whole unit so they can further test the amp. Had a quote of about $45 for the driver, so the cost so far is certainly reasonable. I may go that route and just start putting some coin away for an HSU or an SVS, or more intriguingly, the DIY Infinity Kappa. With my schedule I couldn't get around to it for awhile anyway. My original idea of just replacing the driver and the amp wouldn't be feasible as I wouldn't know where to begin to spec out the components for that ported cabinet. Lots of reading to do in the coming months. Good stuff.

I would find out what the amplifier will cost (if it needs to be replaced) before dropping off the whole thing. But $45 for a woofer is not expensive, so getting a new one makes more sense than getting the old one reconed. Anyway, after getting it fixed (if the price for the amp is not too high), saving for a better subwoofer in the future is not a bad idea. I recommend that you save up enough money so that you can buy a subwoofer that is good enough that you do not feel the need to ever upgrade it. It wastes money to upgrade a little, and then upgrade more later on. Many people do this many times, such that they waste a tremendous amount of money.

I personally have upgraded subwoofers twice, and now am at a point where I don't feel the need to ever upgrade (I have a pair of SVS CS-Ultra subwoofers, which are a discontinued model). It is good to be satisfied with what one has.

 

[padraic]

I would find out what the amplifier will cost (if it needs to be replaced) before dropping off the whole thing. But $45 for a woofer is not expensive, so getting a new one makes more sense than getting the old one reconed. Anyway, after getting it fixed (if the price for the amp is not too high), saving for a better subwoofer in the future is not a bad idea. I recommend that you save up enough money so that you can buy a subwoofer that is good enough that you do not feel the need to ever upgrade it. It wastes money to upgrade a little, and then upgrade more later on. Many people do this many times, such that they waste a tremendous amount of money.

I personally have upgraded subwoofers twice, and now am at a point where I don't feel the need to ever upgrade (I have a pair of SVS CS-Ultra subwoofers, which are a discontinued model). It is good to be satisfied with what one has.

You know, there's more wisdom in that than one might realize at first glance. Being human, as it is, always seems to lead to the notion that "the grass is always greener", so to speak. In essence I am looking for what you have-something good enough to satisfy my needs.

Thanks for all the feedback Pyrrho. Hopefully some other neophytes can learn something from this as well.

Cheers,
Padraic

 

[padraic]

So I've been mulling over everyone's feedback here and puzzling over why the driver failed. The amp seems fine, the Velodyne rep had never seen one of these drivers fail...and "dirvers don't burn themselves out." I did the battery test after making sure that the speaker wires were attached to the woofer's basket--and that's what i saw when I pulled the driver out of the cabinet as far as the wires would let me. And nothing worked.

Yesterday I pulled the driver out completely, disconnecting the speaker wires from the basket. Looked inside the cabinet and saw...rat sh**t.

No kidding, 4 or 5 pellets lying there in a stain. And then it dawned on me...we had left late this summer for a month of traveling and when we returned we found that we had some uninvited guests making themselves at home. (The apt. complex is situated on a lake) After about 3 weeks of pest control visits and high-stress encounters (and one particularly nasty encounter that reduced their numbers by 1) we were rid of them, and on our way to looking for a new place. (Love animals, just not in my kitchen or bedroom) And the sub had stopped working right around that time. They had also gnawed a good way thru some printer wire so I checked over the driver carefully and sure enough, the wires that are supposed to lead from the basket, or speaker wire terminals to the cone/voice coil were *completely* gone, which is why I didn't notice it. So the buggers had been scurrying thru the port on the bottom and making themselves cozy in the rock wool, and snacking on that wire. So I did the battery test again, this time right at the cone and sure enough i got some crackling and movement. I've got a small appliance shop guy soldering some new wire back on now cuz it was so tight to the cone that I probably would have put the iron right thru it or something silly like that. I'm stoked cuz I get my bass back, but I'm also going to try the DIY (Infinity Kappa Perfect 12) route later this year--Chris I'm gonna need some help obviously but I'm confident I can do it.

Anyway, just thought I'd update you guys.

Padraic

 

[WmAx]

I'm stoked cuz I get my bass back, but I'm also going to try the DIY (Infinity Kappa Perfect 12) route later this year--Chris I'm gonna need some help obviously but I'm confident I can do it.

Anyway, just thought I'd update you guys.

Padraic

I'll be glad to help in any way possible. The Kappa Perfect design if built exactly to specifications will produce bass that is absolutely transparent, extremely dynamic and of extreme SQ. A completely different class of bass than your current subwoofer. It is a worthy upgrade. The ultimate upgrade is 2 of them if the purpose is primarily for music; then you have subs that are of a quality suitable to mate with any main speakers of any quality or cost.

-Chris