Moron

[Moron]

You will find the title appropriate regarding these topics. I have the following:

Onkyo TX-SR705 receiver
Focal 7W4411 woofers, 7" diameter - 2 per cabinet
Audiom TLR tweeters - 1 per cabinet

The two speakers are located on either side of my 50' TV in a bookshelf setting in the den. The subwoofer will be placed on a shelf above them. I have the room for a nice size subwoofer.

I am 61 years old and use the system for only 2 things: listening to the TV and music, period. I do not have a HT system. My choice of music is Barry Manilow, Paul Anka, Queen, Phantom of the Opera type stuff. I am looking for the subwoofers that will offer the best reproduction of music. I don't need to break windows, but do want the availability of low base. I'm investigating the HSU VTF-2 MK 3, the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus and the Dayton RS1200K Kit, and would like to remain in that price range.

Your comments will be greatly appreciated, as I am mentally fatigued from Googling and speaking with company reps.

Thanks

 

[Adam]

Welcome to the forum!

The thing that caught my attention is that you are going to place the sub on a shelf above the speakers. I imagine that you considered this already, but if not - consider the weight-bearing capability of that shelf. Some of those subs aren't lightweight.

 

[Cpt.America]

I have medium sized 12" sub from eD.. and I think shipping weight was 118 pounds. Not only would I think a shelf mounted sub sound particularly poor, but I wouldn't feel safe with it up there! Have you considered other placement ideas? Why not up front with your speakers (on the floor) or maybe in a front corner? I think you would be dissapointed in the sound you would get out of just about any sub, sitting on a shelf.

 

[Moron]

Shortly after my posting I spoke with a company rep who told me I would probably be better off with no subwoofer at all than to place it on a shelf - which is 80" high. Unfortunately, my house is designed such that there is no other place it will fit. However, a technical rep from another company assured me that even though it wouldn't sound as good as having it on the floor, I would still have lots of bass.

I'm so confused I don't know what to do.

 

[Moron]

I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that the shelf is stong enough to easily support the weight of any of the subwoofers I mentioned.

 

[WmAx]

If the shelf is strong enough as you stated, then their is no problem except for the fixed location you have to use the sub. Normally, people position a sub where it will have the most even frequency response and you seem to be stuck with a very limited position option. Now, one thing you need to do is to use a type of soft cushion between the subwoofer and shelf. This will prevent unwanted vibration from contacting the shelf and wall structure, which would likely cause unwanted coloration of the signal. A high grade medium stiff cushion foam of 3" would be sufficient. Forget the garbage you buy at the local fabric store. You usually have to order the high grade foams from specialty shops like www.foamonline.com and you would want a high grade foam like evlon, high resiliency, or very firm latex foam. Latex is the most durable and will last for decades. The cheap foam like you buy locally will be flattened in several weeks to months.

-Chris

 

[Moron]

Thanks, WmAx. I'll take your advise and order a quality foam. The location of the subwoofer may not allow the best sound quality, but I'm encouraged that it will significantly enhance the overall sound quality of my system. My speakers and receiver offer crystal clear sound, but I am quite surprised with the lack of bass.

Don

 

[Rickster71]

Just some things to consider:
How will you deal with the power (AC) wire, and cable from your receiver to the sub?
Do you have an AC outlet near the shelf? Where will you hide the cables?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks, WmAx. I'll take your advise and order a quality foam. The location of the subwoofer may not allow the best sound quality, but I'm encouraged that it will significantly enhance the overall sound quality of my system. My speakers and receiver offer crystal clear sound, but I am quite surprised with the lack of bass.

Don

I'm surprised by the lack of bass also. Those are good drivers. Who built and designed the cabinets? You should be able to achieve good output to 40 Hz in a 2.5 cu.ft cabinet, with a 4"diameter port, around seven and a half inches long.

Here is the alignment for two of those drivers.

Name: 7 W 4411
Type: Standard one-way driver
Company: Focal-JMlab
No. of Drivers = 2
Mounting = Standard
Wiring = Parallel
Fs = 39.5 Hz
Qms = 7
Vas = 33.9 liters
Cms = 0.885 mm/N
Mms = 18.33 g
Rms = 0.65 kg/s
Xmax = 5.5 mm
Sd = 165.1 sq.cm
Qes = 0.38
Re = 7.8 ohms
Le = 0.69 mH
Z = 8 ohms
BL = 9.67 Tm
Pe = 90 watts
Qts = 0.36
1-W SPL = 89.3 dB
-----------------------------------------
Box Properties
Name:
Type: Vented Box
Shape: Prism, square (optimum)
Vb = 2.439 cu.ft
Fb = 35.57 Hz
QL = 6.69
F3 = 41.46 Hz
Fill = minimal
No. of Vents = 1
Vent shape = round
Vent ends = one flush
Dv = 4 in
Lv = 7.417 in

Those drivers do have a step response with a slightly falling response below 200 Hz. This should be correctable in the crossover to the lower fill driver. However if this was not done, it might give you your perceived lack of bass. A sub will not correct this by the way. Also the drivers have a significant breakup mode at 1.8 K Hz which might also make the speakers sound bright and unbalanced if this was not notched out in the crossover.

However properly used you should be able to get superior results from those drivers.

 

[Moron]

Just some things to consider:
How will you deal with the power (AC) wire, and cable from your receiver to the sub?
Do you have an AC outlet near the shelf? Where will you hide the cables?

I had a outlet built into the wall above the shelf. The receiver will be situated next to the sub.

 

[nasd90]

Don't put it on a shelf... if you do forget about any decent range and also forget about anything on a shelf, that shelf, or near to that shelf.

Where there is a will, there is a way. Find a spot on the floor, even if not in the appropriate spot. Under an end table, make it an ottoman...haha.

Something man, think.


nasd90

 

[WmAx]

Don't put it on a shelf... if you do forget about any decent range and also forget about anything on a shelf, that shelf, or near to that shelf.

Where there is a will, there is a way. Find a spot on the floor, even if not in the appropriate spot. Under an end table, make it an ottoman...haha.

Something man, think.


nasd90

With the suggested foam absorber/suspension, it won't be vibrating anything on the shelf.

 

[nasd90]

or your ear... ;-)


nasd90

 

[Moron]

TlS Guy,

The cabinets and crossovers were designed by Anan Hyulsebus of ORCA Design & Manufacturing. They are 34" H X 10.5" W X 16" D. The port is 9" X 2", made of 3/4" MDF and lined with Black Hole 5 (Very expensive stuff).

I could scan and attach the crossover if that would help. I'm thinking that may be the problem, but I know nothing about this stuff.

I appreciate your help TIS Guy.

Don

 

[TLS Guy]

TlS Guy,

The cabinets and crossovers were designed by Anan Hyulsebus of ORCA Design & Manufacturing. They are 34" H X 10.5" W X 16" D. The port is 9" X 2", made of 3/4" MDF and lined with Black Hole 5 (Very expensive stuff).

I could scan and attach the crossover if that would help. I'm thinking that may be the problem, but I know nothing about this stuff.

I appreciate your help TIS Guy.

Don

The volume of the enclosure seems about right, but the port calculation is way off! Can you enlarge the port. I recommend a port flared at one end 4 inches in diameter and 8 inches long. Make this mod and I guarantee you bass.

Please scan me the crossover circuit, I might well be able to improve things for you there also.

 

[Moron]

The volume of the enclosure seems about right, but the port calculation is way off! Can you enlarge the port. I recommend a port flared at one end 4 inches in diameter and 8 inches long. Make this mod and I guarantee you bass.

Please scan me the crossover circuit, I might well be able to improve things for you there also.

TLS Guy,

I think my problem is solved, but would like your advise. Below the TV are three cabinets, each measuring 22.5" H X 21.5" W X 22.5" deep. I understand that a subwoofer will work well in a cabinet as long as it has ample space around it. The Hsu VTF-2 MK3 and the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus are too deep, but the Dayton RS1200K would fit. What are your thoughts?

Also, through research I've discovered there are ported and sealed subwoofers. It's my understanding that the ported ones offer deeper bass, but the sealed ones give better response. I definitely want significantly more bass than I have, but I don't need to be blown out, so do you think I would be satisfied with the Dayton product? One thing that bothers me about it is their Frequency Response chart says, "Due to testing limitations, response below 200Hz is not an actual representation." Seems strange.

Perhaps you know of another subwoofer in that price range that you like better???

Thx,

Don

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy,

I think my problem is solved, but would like your advise. Below the TV are three cabinets, each measuring 22.5" H X 21.5" W X 22.5" deep. I understand that a subwoofer will work well in a cabinet as long as it has ample space around it. The Hsu VTF-2 MK3 and the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus are too deep, but the Dayton RS1200K would fit. What are your thoughts?

Also, through research I've discovered there are ported and sealed subwoofers. It's my understanding that the ported ones offer deeper bass, but the sealed ones give better response. I definitely want significantly more bass than I have, but I don't need to be blown out, so do you think I would be satisfied with the Dayton product? One thing that bothers me about it is their Frequency Response chart says, "Due to testing limitations, response below 200Hz is not an actual representation." Seems strange.

Perhaps you know of another subwoofer in that price range that you like better???

Thx,

Don

If you are not a rock head, I don't think the Dayton is the one for you. What are your musical tastes?

My first comment is that I don't think your Focal drivers are performing properly. A two inch diameter port can not allow those speakers to perform. The vent compression must be enormous.

I think you will find a sub will not do the trick for you, until you get your speakers performing properly. Speakers with those drivers should not sound bass shy. They should sound well balanced and then a sub can give you the last octave, where there is not a lot of musical material.

 

[Moron]

If you are not a rock head, I don't think the Dayton is the one for you. What are your musical tastes?

My first comment is that I don't think your Focal drivers are performing properly. A two inch diameter port can not allow those speakers to perform. The vent compression must be enormous.

I think you will find a sub will not do the trick for you, until you get your speakers performing properly. Speakers with those drivers should not sound bass shy. They should sound well balanced and then a sub can give you the last octave, where there is not a lot of musical material.

A friend who knows the jargon told me that my port is actually 2" H X 9" W X 12" D. I tried sending you the crossover, but the KBs vastly exceed the amount allowed - I had to scan them.

I'm 61 yrs. old and like nearly all music but hard rock and rap. Barry Manilow, Queen, Paul Anka, Roy Orbison, opera, etc. is my style.

 

[Moron]

If you are not a rock head, I don't think the Dayton is the one for you. What are your musical tastes?

My first comment is that I don't think your Focal drivers are performing properly. A two inch diameter port can not allow those speakers to perform. The vent compression must be enormous.

I think you will find a sub will not do the trick for you, until you get your speakers performing properly. Speakers with those drivers should not sound bass shy. They should sound well balanced and then a sub can give you the last octave, where there is not a lot of musical material.

TLS Guy,

I was under the impression that because the Dayton kit I'm considering is sealed vs ported it would offer a cleaner, not boomy bass sound. Am I wrong?

Don

 

[alexsound]

TLS Guy,

I think my problem is solved, but would like your advise. Below the TV are three cabinets, each measuring 22.5" H X 21.5" W X 22.5" deep. I understand that a subwoofer will work well in a cabinet as long as it has ample space around it. The Hsu VTF-2 MK3 and the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus are too deep, but the Dayton RS1200K would fit. What are your thoughts?

Also, through research I've discovered there are ported and sealed subwoofers. It's my understanding that the ported ones offer deeper bass, but the sealed ones give better response. I definitely want significantly more bass than I have, but I don't need to be blown out, so do you think I would be satisfied with the Dayton product? One thing that bothers me about it is their Frequency Response chart says, "Due to testing limitations, response below 200Hz is not an actual representation." Seems strange.

Perhaps you know of another subwoofer in that price range that you like better???

Thx,

Don

You really need to expand your search on subs. the one's you've been looking at are very good to great, BUT, there are very musical smaller subs out there from companies like Velodyne and Definitive Technology, just to name a few. Their subs are no slouches and very musical also, AND more importantly, they have quite a few models that have a very small footprint, yet still are very capable of reproducing very powerful, and low distortion bass.