sub choice help please!

Hostility

Hostility

Full Audioholic
ok i need to figure this out before boxing day. i have 2 choices, i have a friend that is really good at audio, and says he can build me my own sub/box combo, using a car audio sub, and then i buy a bash amp, then he can build the box, we figured roughly around $500 give or take. he said it would be louder then any store bought as he said its all in the box. but i like to hear things before i buy. so my other option is going to futureshop on boxing day and get the velodyne DLS-5000r. another thing is, payment, as i dont have the money right now, i can put the velo on a no payment for 6 months card, where as with him i would have to wait to save some money. what do you guys think?
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
ok i need to figure this out before boxing day. i have 2 choices, i have a friend that is really good at audio, and says he can build me my own sub/box combo, using a car audio sub, and then i buy a bash amp, then he can build the box, we figured roughly around $500 give or take. he said it would be louder then any store bought as he said its all in the box. but i like to hear things before i buy. so my other option is going to futureshop on boxing day and get the velodyne DLS-5000r. another thing is, payment, as i dont have the money right now, i can put the velo on a no payment for 6 months card, where as with him i would have to wait to save some money. what do you guys think?
Without knowing the amp, sub, enclosure combo, the DIY option is up in the air. In understanding the combo, in this economy, it may make more sense to save, regardless.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
The DIY option will, no question, get you a far better subwoofer IF the process is done correctly. But, this depends on the cabinet design and driver used.

I can specify a driver and amplifier and cabinet system that will give you superb results.

Driver: Infinity Kappa Perfect VQ 12" : http://www.hookedontronics.com/show_product_details.jsp?cid=20835&brandtype=0
$165

Amp: O Audio 500 Watt Plate: http://www.oaudio.com/500W_SUBAMP.html
$230

Cabinet: 3.9 ft^3 net internal volume

Port: Folded Slot Port: 3.25" H x 12" W x 56" Length

Use Mid-Q insert for Kappa Perfect VQ driver with above enclosure.

I can not stress this enough: there are extremely few drivers that will truly make excellent music subwoofers through a wide range of SPLs. Most drivers have motor and suspension systems that change properties radically as you increase power to them and increase excursion. The driver above, is by way of 3rd party verification, extremely linear. It will act very similar at both high and low power, resulting in extremely low distortion, even at full power of the O Audio amplifier. In fact, the ratings on that woofer are VERY conservative. It won't even be pushed near it's limit with the amp that is rated at 500 watts. Also, while rated at only 14mm xmax, that driver is absolutely linear within this range. Actual mechanical excursion limit(that is not linear) is well over 20mm one way.

The amplifier suggested is one of the very few plate amps suited for high power ported applictions because it has a variable subsonic filter. It is critical to use a subsonic filter for home theatre in vented high power systems. A high power peak that resides under the port tuning frequency for a sound effect could easily cause the driver to unload; this means it could push the driver past mechanical excursion limits and crash the voice coil former into the back of the motor assembly = dead driver. Besides having a subsonic variable filter, the amp is one of the higher quality units, and is made in Canada not China. It has a real 430 watts at 4 Ohms as measured by credible 3rd party.

The cabinet suggested is critical to use the vent suggested along with it. Most ported designs, both DIY and commercial have substantial acoustic output dropoff/compression near and at port tuning frequency. This means the port has insufficient cross sectional area to allow air to freely move; the velocity becomes too high causing non-linear air movement. The very substantial cross section I specified will insure you have full output with zero air noise even at full power with a steady state sine wave at 20Hz.

The suggested design above, in an average room volume of 1800-2000 cubic feet or less should easily produce in excess of 112dB from 20Hz on up with NO audible distortion using the O Audio amplifier. Output of 115-117dB would be easily possible with a more powerful amplifier. Avaserfi on this forum achieved around 120dB from 20Hz on up using a 2000 watt amplifier in an average sized room using a single of these subwoofers in the cabinet system suggested. This is NOT a SPL woofer, even though it can produce far higher output than most commercial subwoofer home systems. It is first and foremore a sound quality driver. To get substantially higher output witha single 12" driver you would need to use something along the lines of a JL Audio W7 12" driver in a proper slot port design.

I suggested the above cabinet. Avaserfi has posted a slightly revised version along with full cabinet cut list and box model for easy construction: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45528

What commercial price range does this compare to in regards to performance, you might ask? Well, it's hard to say. This will result in a completely transparent/neutral subwoofer system with substantial dynamic ability if constructed as specified. Considering the cabinet and driver quality, if say sold by a make like Velodyne or Paradigm, it would probably cost in the range of $2500 USD. But I would expect they would use a more powerful amplifier to take advantage of the Perfect VQs full potential.

-Chris
 
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Hostility

Hostility

Full Audioholic
thanks for all the info! seems like it would be the better route. the sub will be a pyle. rated for a believe 1000 watts, and yes im going to use the bash 500 watt amp. the box he was going to desgin as he has a program to do so as he does competition car audio.
 
S

SledgeHammer

Audiophyte
I'm new here, but I've been reading these forms for awhile now. I've been into car audio for a few years now and know some of the drivers I use would be really nice for home use. I'm into JL D class amps and JL subs, they are some of the best on the market, and currently run 3 slot ported 10s in my truck. I recently blew a Klipsch sub in my HT and music setup and was going to use a JL 12W6v2 sub with some kind of amp. Wasn't sure how things would work out, then I got to reading about Rythmik Direct servo subs, and bought a sealed 15 kit. I built the box at 3 cu. ft. sealed and holy crap what a tight sounding sub yet has the extension for HT and rap music like a ported sub. I can shake things in the whole house watching movies or listening to music. Never heard that kind of accuracy from a sub. It's the most musical sub I've ever owned. With outstanding output.

Sub and amp shipped: $630

Materials for box: $100

Watching my wife's reaction when a picture falls off the wall: Priceless!!!

Good luck with your setup.
 
Hostility

Hostility

Full Audioholic
hey sledge, so what did you do order a sub and amp off there website from the buy now? and then just used there specs to desgin a box yourself? that seems like a better way to me. do they give you box plans? does the sub give you a nice chest thump or more of a smooth bass note? also if you have any pics that would be much appreciated. thanks
 
S

SledgeHammer

Audiophyte
I ordered the DS1500 sealed 3 cu ft, with 12-24db A370XLR servo amplifier.

You can download the box plans from their site at anytime, Brian Ding will answer any question you have, just submit a question. He answered all my e-mails. A very good experience overall. Sorry I can't post any images or links until I have 5 or more posts, so I'll get back to ya on that one.
 
S

SledgeHammer

Audiophyte
It works great for everything I've tried so far from metal, rap and action movies like Transformers is awsome. It's very accurate, didn't know what I was missing until now. My room is 13'x16', the sub is downfired, I'm amazed at the output. You should look for other reviews on Rythmik direct servo kits. Don't just take my opinion.

Still working on my post count to get those pics for you.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Using the JL W6 v2, in a proper ported cabinet system, combined with a DSP like the DCX2496, you can get so much MORE performance in regards to output vs. distortion, especially in the last lower octave. :) Infinity Kappa Perfect VQ is about exact in quality/performance, suitable as a substitute for W6 v2 if you want to save some money. I was surprised that you decided to not use the W6 v2, as it is in all likelihood a better driver than the Rythmic. Servo control really has significant purpose only on drivers that are NOT operating linearly in the first place. The W6v2 and Kappa Perfect both have motor/suspension systems that are far beyond the norm, and remain extremely linear for their entire rated x-max and RMS power ratings. In fact, the Kappa Perfect tested with exact same methodology in small sealed cabinet(and very underpowered also in the case), compared to same diameter extremely highly regarded end home audio servo control subwoofer(Velodyne DD-12), bested the Servo unit in terms of output and distortion, despite the Perfect being a passive non-servo device. It's motor system is that good.... and if the tests had used a large enough amp the test results would have been far better. But the amp used in the test for the Perfect could barely produce 200 watts into a 4 ohm mono load from what I could tell in researching the amp(despite the claims made in the test outline specs), and it was obvious that the amp was clipping in the higher SPL tests at low frequencies. When feasible, a proper ported system is desirable over sealed; as you achieve much higher output with much lower distortion in the lowest octave. The only time I don't use ported for subwoofer systems is when size constraints are present.

-Chris
 
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Hostility

Hostility

Full Audioholic
the only thing right now that is stearing me away from the DIY is just the money, as i am better at payments then i am with saving, thats why im kind of leaning towards the velo, i like the sound of it, but ony have heard it with music so far. might go back and get them to hook it up to a movie. but i could always in the future do a DIY and run both systems.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
the only thing right now that is stearing me away from the DIY is just the money, as i am better at payments then i am with saving, thats why im kind of leaning towards the velo, i like the sound of it, but ony have heard it with music so far. might go back and get them to hook it up to a movie. but i could always in the future do a DIY and run both systems.
Well, just letting you know, a retail subwoofer at around the same cost or cheaper than the DIY unit I suggested to you will be substantially inferior in every aspect, from output SPL to distortion. It would rather non-productive to run the retail unit along with the DIY unit, if you are referring to possibly building the DIY unit I specified.

-Chris
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
WmAx is completely correct here. Properly done DIY with a pretty decent driver & enclosure execution will result in far superior performance to commercially available units. This includes the "value" companies like SVS & HSU.

Financially speaking, I would avoid additional monthly payments in such an economic state. :)
 
Hostility

Hostility

Full Audioholic
i know its prob the wrong decision in every way, but i just hate watching movies without bass. and for me to build the DIY im looking at about another few months untill i could do it.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
i know its prob the wrong decision in every way, but i just hate watching movies without bass. and for me to build the DIY im looking at about another few months untill i could do it.
What about this option: have a local shop make the cabinet for you.

Avaserfi has his cabinet plans for the Infinity Kappa Perfect VQ12 12" driver posted on the forum. And you can just buy an O Audio 500 watt BASH amplifier(this is not just some random amplifier, btw, and it should be used if you want to go the plate amp route here) and have it installed in the cabinet. This subwoofer is of extremely high performance/fidelity.

-Chris
 
Hostility

Hostility

Full Audioholic
well the Bash amp was the amp i was going to order originally, then i saw the other ones with the subs to go with them. but again, it will cost to buy the amp then have it shipped. then i have to buy the sub, then pay for the box, my buddy was going to do it for me as he has the program to design one. but like i said earlier, i dont have the money for that way right now and would take a few months if not longer for me to save for it.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Good things come to those who wait.

Purchase now, compromise, & in 6 mos. you will be selling your sub so you can go DIY. Discipline yourself, save, and do it right the first time. :D
 
Hostility

Hostility

Full Audioholic
ok so i just checked futureshops website they have the velo 12" 200watts rms on for $299 are these subs any good compared to the 15, i would be looking at getting 2 of them. they also have 2 polk towers on for $499 for the pair with dual woofers. they dont give model number yet as they are updating their website. please let me know asap. thanks
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
No, the DIY 15" would eat the VELO DSP-12s for a snack! I don't see the Polk towers you're referring to. The prices I see are for a single speaker.
 
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Hostility

Hostility

Full Audioholic
what would be better though, the 5000r or 2 dsp 12's?
the polk towers are the RTI 10's. they are 249 each. so $499 for both.
 
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