ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
It scares me that TLS is giving advice on normal consumer products.

Good job TLS.

A short list of my favorite speakers are:

B&W
Paradigm
Dynaudio
SWAN
Warfs

Find as many speakers as you can to audition, take your time and have fun. Take your own music that you like and are familar with. Powering them will be the easy part and we can tell you what AVR you need after you pick the speakers.
 
Clownfish

Clownfish

Junior Audioholic
As for my own experiences, I'm engaged to an architect and she's all about aesthetics... until I auditioned a full Def Tech system for her. Now she sees where my taste comes from.
This may be the best idea. No beatings, no criminal charges.

Perhaps if I play the Bose with a CD, then take him into a better store with high end equipment, and the same CD, he will be able to hear the difference, and be more receptive to "components" (the AV stacks he doesn't like to look at) and why they are necessary.

Even i'm strating to realize there is a lot more information I need to learn, before I make any choices.

Example: He had mentioned a Blue Ray player after Christmas... I think we were both under the impression that it was a CD/DVD player, that just did a better job of HD. More of a high end player.

After reading more of the fourms here, I realize that is quite wrong, and just didn't understand much about it. I'm not sure it's such a good idea, now. What a PITA, it sounds like! Update and buy new CD's, make sure the correct connections are made, and they don't play the old CD's, unless a really expensive Blue Ray is purchased!

I tink I need to do more reading, before I make a decision like this...:rolleyes:
 
Clownfish

Clownfish

Junior Audioholic
It scares me that TLS is giving advice on normal consumer products.

Good job TLS.

A short list of my favorite speakers are:

B&W
Paradigm
Dynaudio
SWAN
Warfs

Find as many speakers as you can to audition, take your time and have fun. Take your own music that you like and are familar with. Powering them will be the easy part and we can tell you what AVR you need after you pick the speakers.

Yes, TLS has provided some excellent links! and info! Keeps me reading, and learning more!:)

I didn't realize there was this much information necessary, just for an average consumer to make a *slightly* educated decision about the purchase of AV equipment... Just so we don't come home with another type of Bose mistake...:eek:
 
Nemo128

Nemo128

Audioholic Field Marshall
Yes, TLS has provided some excellent links! and info! Keeps me reading, and learning more!:)

I didn't realize there was this much information necessary, just for an average consumer to make a *slightly* educated decision about the purchase of AV equipment... Just so we don't come home with another type of Bose mistake...:eek:
If Bose is useful for one thing, it's as a learning lesson. =)
 
Clownfish

Clownfish

Junior Audioholic
Can someone post some links about amps? And the difference between a pre-amp, an amp, and a receiver? I'm getting a little confused about these. I was just going to buy an AV receiver, Yammy or Marantz, but now I'm not so sure...

I went and listened to some more speakers, took my own CD, Maroon 5, and listened to some B&W along with Klispich (sp?) I didn't care for the Klipsich, but I did like the B&W 600 series.

Here's my question... The guy ran one pair of $800.00 close-out DM603 s3 with just a Denon, I don't remember the model, but about $600-700.00 range. I did like the B&W, but I noticed a scratchy-ness when listening, at louder volumes... I though the scratches were on my CD, and I should bring a different CD but...

I went into the "big room" where I listened to the new B&W 683 and 685 and there weren't any scraches, BUT... He had these really expensive Rotel amp, pre-amp, and CD player... again, I noticed the prices, and the Rotel's were $999.99 for one, $899.00 for the other, and the CD player was $600.00!

How much of a difference do these Rotel amps, pre-amps and such make on how good a speaker will sound, to the listener? Should I consider this type of set-up?

...And thanks!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Can someone post some links about amps? And the difference between a pre-amp, an amp, and a receiver? I'm getting a little confused about these. I was just going to buy an AV receiver, Yammy or Marantz, but now I'm not so sure...

I went and listened to some more speakers, took my own CD, Maroon 5, and listened to some B&W along with Klispich (sp?) I didn't care for the Klipsich, but I did like the B&W 600 series.

Here's my question... The guy ran one pair of $800.00 close-out DM603 s3 with just a Denon, I don't remember the model, but about $600-700.00 range. I did like the B&W, but I noticed a scratchy-ness when listening, at louder volumes... I though the scratches were on my CD, and I should bring a different CD but...

I went into the "big room" where I listened to the new B&W 683 and 685 and there weren't any scraches, BUT... He had these really expensive Rotel amp, pre-amp, and CD player... again, I noticed the prices, and the Rotel's were $999.99 for one, $899.00 for the other, and the CD player was $600.00!

How much of a difference do these Rotel amps, pre-amps and such make on how good a speaker will sound, to the listener? Should I consider this type of set-up?

...And thanks!
Oh dear, you have complicated matters!

First of all congratulations picking out the Klipsch as aberrant in tonal balance.

The B & W speakers are excellent. However those speakers you listened to are quite a few years old and a long way from current. You have to delve into the B & W archive to get the specs.

Now I was directing you to a receiver purely to stay on budget. Those B & W speakers, if you delve into them are actually three ohm speakers over a lot of the range. Now the scratches you heard were the amplifiers in the receiver running out of power into the load presented and clipping. This is typical for the receiver market, unless you get into the higher priced THX certified Ultra ranges.

Now let be honest, I'm no fan of receivers, in fact I have never owned one and doubt I ever would. The speakers I selected, I thought were unlikely to severely embarrass a receiver.

Now if you like those B & Ws by all means buy them, but tell that dealer you will take those obsolete speakers off his hands for $250. And make sure he knows you are stretching yourself and doing him an extreme favor to take them off his hands for that much.

Now this whole issue remains poorly understood by the vast majority of members on these forums. However, you have identified the problem for yourself. I had to post on this, this morning again.

Now if you want to go the separate route you have two options.

1). By a a cheaper receiver that has preouts, and connect a high current power amp to the preouts. The amps in the receiver will not be used, but still be on. Strangely, this will almost certainly be your cheaper option.

2). Buy a pre amp processor and separate amps. Rotel now have a pre pro that will decode the new Dolby True HD loss less formats. You already have found the Rotel amps and they are excellent.

There are less costly power amps from Emotiva, and Outlaw.

I have to say you are doing due diligence and have progressed far, and discovered some fundamental issues to good reproduction in the home.

However, I think you are getting beyond the parameters of your original post. If that is where you want to head we remain ready to help.

If you are considering something superior, and have the budget, to go the separate route with the speakers to do it justice, then you should consider something from the B & W 800 range. I warned you that to get what I have come to understand you are looking for, the budget needs to go up considerably.

Look again at my technical post I sent you about the advantages of high current amps. It is in a post on this thread. That really goes to the heart of the question you are asking.

Here is the post. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=489264&postcount=2
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Now that the TLS I know. Jumping to conclusions, thinking he knows what is going on without enough info and driving his weird beliefs on others....
Now this whole issue remains poorly understood by the vast majority of members on these forums. However, you have identified the problem for yourself. I had to post on this, this morning again.

]
 
Clownfish

Clownfish

Junior Audioholic
Now that the TLS I know. Jumping to conclusions, thinking he knows what is going on without enough info and driving his weird beliefs on others....
Well, perhaps, but in this case, he's right...:rolleyes:



The more I go out, listen and learn, the more questions I come back with. I went from a purchase of a Yammy with a pair of speakers, to questions about Rotel pre and pro amps with B&W's...

Not exactly in the same ballpark. Even the same ballgame, for that matter.:rolleyes:

I'm not making this thread any easier, that's for sure... I'm just glad TLS keeps providing info, links, and not getting frustrated with all the questions.

:):)
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
External amps are awesome and I use one. I am a big Rotel fan but I also understand that you pay for a name. If one didn't care about looks then he/she would use a pro amp vs a consumer HT amp and end up with a much more powerful amp and a fraction of the cost.

Today's AVRs will perform with or out perform about any pre/pro on the market and give you more bells and whistles to boot along with extra power for zone 2 and 3.

Keep in mind, that the speakers are the most important period. Like I said before, pick those and then it will be easy for us to tell you how to properly drive them. You can use seperates costing 20k or you can build an equal set up using AVR and pro amp for 600bucks.

here is a sample of my little set up.
 
Clownfish

Clownfish

Junior Audioholic
Keep in mind, that the speakers are the most important period. Like I said before, pick those and then it will be easy for us to tell you how to properly drive them.

Yeah, but that's where the question came in...

If the store has $2500.00 in great equipment, how are those same speakers going to sound with a Yammy 663? The Denon made the CD sound like a damaged disc. That's where my real question was about. Why this had occured.

For that matter, I bet all that Rotel would make even the Bose I have sound a lot better, if the two systems could be merged, LOL...:rolleyes:

I need to keep this in mind, when listening to speakers, since I'm not prepared to lay out $2500. to properly drive them. I think this is the point TLS was trying to make.


Your system is quite impressive.
Too bad my spouse would have kittens over all that... And he hates cats! :eek:
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
That's what I am getting at. A pro amp with a 663 used as a preamp will likely out perform the Rotel set up and it will run you 350 bucks for the amp + what ever you can talk the 663 down to.

I am not sure "what your spouse would have kittens" means.:confused:


Here is a picture of pro gear that runs my sub. It is ugly like I said but you can always hide it. The amp is 1200 watts x2 which is more than most people would ever need. Mine is bridged to supply 2,400 watts to my sub.

The amp is the black thing on bottom, the silver thing is an EQ.


Yeah, but that's where the question came in...

If the store has $2500.00 in great equipment, how are those same speakers going to sound with a Yammy 663? The Denon made the CD sound like a damaged disc. That's where my real question was about. Why this had occured.

For that matter, I bet all that Rotel would make even the Bose I have sound a lot better, if the two systems could be merged, LOL...:rolleyes:

I need to keep this in mind, when listening to speakers, since I'm not prepared to lay out $2500. to properly drive them. I think this is the point TLS was trying to make.


Your system is quite impressive.
Too bad my spouse would have kittens over all that... And he hates cats! :eek:
 
Last edited:
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I listened to Martin Logan Preface, and liked these the best of the few I have heard, so far. I didn't care for the Canton's, the Monitor Audio RS6 were good, but not when paired against the Logans, IMO. He ran them through a Yammy reciever, in my price range, no amp, sub, or any extras.
You will have to be careful, with the Martin Logans. They are hybrid electrostatics. I would be nervous about them filling your space. Electrostatics are highly sensitive to position and room effects, and also beam, giving them a narrow sweat spot.
Hello folks. Just to clarify, the Prefaces are not electrostats, but use the ATF planar tweeters that I'm pretty certain are made by BG corp.

Anyways, to get back on the current topic, I am one of those who has found that pairing a mid level receiver with an outboard amp is the WTG for the money. The vast majority of my speakers (if not every one of the 9 I own) drop to 4 ohms or lower, and I also sometimes enjoy having a dynamic session with headroom.

So, just to throw out another idea that is commonly implemented: providing enough outboard amp channels for either the mains or front 3. While some receivers may not have enough juice for the dynamic front soundstage in any given application, they often can be plenty for the fleeting surround effects found in the surround speakers.

Carry on. :)
 
Clownfish

Clownfish

Junior Audioholic
ParadigmDawg;498747 I am not sure "what your spouse would have kittens" means.:confused: [IMG said:
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd47/greggable/SUB/Subamp001.jpg[/IMG]
What I mean is, I'd love to own a system like that, but my spouse doesn't like "all of the big ugly components stacked on a shelf, with the big ugly speakers, sub, cluttering the house..."

One "unit" to do-it-all, and a pair of small, cute, cube speakers is more to the liking... Kinda like the Bose he bought. :eek:

That's what led to removing my old stuff, to be replaced by the Bose.

Not to mention cost. That's another factor. The cost would send him over the edge.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Did you just call my stuff ugly? I guess your husband would think the 12-15k would look better in the bank?....what a sissy:D
What I mean is, I'd love to own a system like that, but my spouse doesn't like "all of the big ugly components stacked on a shelf, with the big ugly speakers, sub, cluttering the house..."

One "unit" to do-it-all, and a pair of small, cute, cube speakers is more to the liking... Kinda like the Bose he bought. :eek:

That's what led to removing my old stuff, to be replaced by the Bose.

Not to mention cost. That's another factor. The cost would send him over the edge.
 
Clownfish

Clownfish

Junior Audioholic
Did you just call my stuff ugly? I guess your husband would think the 12-15k would look better in the bank?....what a sissy:D

Uh no, he called MY old stuff ugly. Kenwood, JBJ Lx 55's, etc. Beauty is in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder...

No, he's into guns and ammo, actually. Another AR-15, Kimber, or Silver Eagle would make him smile...
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I like guns too. Shoot him in the leg with that Kimber and tell him you will aim higher the next time if he doesn't give in to the system!
Uh no, he called MY old stuff ugly. Kenwood, JBJ Lx 55's, etc. Beauty is in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder...

No, he's into guns and ammo, actually. Another AR-15, Kimber, or Silver Eagle would make him smile...
 
Clownfish

Clownfish

Junior Audioholic
I like guns too. Shoot him in the leg with that Kimber and tell him you will aim higher the next time if he doesn't give in to the system!

Just getting him to admit the Bose is a mistake, well that was the first step in the right direction... And a tough step. Admitting he made a mistake! Whew!

Next, the plan is to take him out to listen to some of the better equipment. Who knows?

Maybe he will understand some of it's necessary, and the small tiny speakers just can't produce the type of sound that the larger 'floor hogs' do. Maybe he will understand that only ONE unit just can't do-it-all.

Maybe not, and I'll have to find more extreme measures... and axe handle comes to mind...:cool: If that doesn't work, then I'll find the Kimber.
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
The more I go out, listen and learn, the more questions I come back with. I went from a purchase of a Yammy with a pair of speakers, to questions about Rotel pre and pro amps with B&W's...
The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of consumer A/V products will play nice together when operated within their own limits. The #1 operative rule in my book is still in play here, i.e. choose your speakers first. All this talk about amps is wasted if you choose an efficient, easy to drive speaker. Once we know what speaker you intend to use, then (and only then) can we productively discuss the kind of amp that's best to drive them. Even in the worst case scenario, a mega power pro amp won't cost that much.

If the store has $2500.00 in great equipment, how are those same speakers going to sound with a Yammy 663? The Denon made the CD sound like a damaged disc. That's where my real question was about. Why this had occured.
Without some time trying to figure out which component is causing the issue, it's hard to say what caused that experience for you. It would depend on whether you are hearing distortion related sounds or the result of physical damage. It could be that those demo B&W's were over driven at some point and are damaged. Even the Denon may be damaged. Don't be afraid to have them switch around components to make sure you are hearing the equipment running as it's designed.
 
Clownfish

Clownfish

Junior Audioholic
Oh dear, you have complicated matters!

Now I was directing you to a receiver purely to stay on budget. Those B & W speakers, if you delve into them are actually three ohm speakers over a lot of the range. Now the scratches you heard were the amplifiers in the receiver running out of power into the load presented and clipping. This is typical for the receiver market, unless you get into the higher priced THX certified Ultra ranges.
Now that I know what this 'clipping' is, I'll keeping and ear open for it, all puns intended...:rolleyes: Speaking of ears, they are out pacing my budget!

One thing I have noticed, when I liked the ML Preface, priced in the store $1250.00 I looked later and found them on-line for about $700.00? Is this normal?

I'd like to spend my money local, but on such a skimpy budget, I can't afford to give it away. I feel like a creep shopping in these stores, asking the staff for assistance, knowing full well I'm going to check the price on-line, and buy there if it's found cheaper...:(
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
It's because the prices you found on-line are priced individually. If for some reason I am incorrect, will you please immediately PM me? :D
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top