Top Islamic body: Yoga is not for Muslims

[jonnythan]

I'll reference my comments in the thread about the bill of non-rights. Rights exist because people let them. IMO, human beings have no inherent rights.

I will disagree with that.

The Founders disagreed with it too. Go read the Declaration of Independence

Free speech only protects so much. Yell "fire" in a crowded movie theater and see if you don't get arrested if you're caught. Call the FBI or Secret Service and threaten to kill the president and see what happens. I'm guessing that they'd get to you sooner than you'd think. Heck, just walk up to an armed police officer and tell him that you are going to kill him. Try discussing your right to free speech with his boot on your neck and sidearm against your temple.

You can say anything that you want, but there are consequences - some more significant than others.

Yes, there are certain limits on free speech in the US, but none of the limitations are related to people being offended or insulted by said speech. They're almost all exclusively about inciting or threatening violence.

 

[jonnythan]

Reviewing the literature, it's not a solely American idea that people are born with inalienable rights they gain solely by being a human being.

This language appears in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as well.

 

[Adam]

I will disagree with that.

The Founders disagreed with it too. Go read the Declaration of Independence

Hey, if everyone agreed, life would be more boring. From my posts in the boring thread, clearly I don't need more of that.

I don't need to reread the Declaration, but thanks. Perhaps read my comments in the other thread on the bill of non-rights. They cover my thoughts on that subject in more detail.

Yes, there are certain limits on free speech in the US, but none of the limitations are related to people being offended or insulted by said speech. They're almost all exclusively about inciting or threatening violence.

That's not what you said, so I pointed it out. You stated that you could say whatever you wanted without legal ramifications. Also, while I don't know if libel and slander would directly lead to incarceration, you can certainly be held legally accountable for them. Plus, like I said, there are always consequences. Go up to a stranger that can kick your a** and tell them off - might not be illegal, but I wouldn't advise it.

 

[jonnythan]

Equally interestingly, it appears that the only critics of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are Islamic nations, who apparently say that it is specifically incompatible with Islamic law.

There is an alternative document called the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam, which is somewhat similar but.... shall we say "more restrictive." It does not recognize the rights of human beings to marry people of other religions, among other things.

Perhaps Islam is simply incompatible with some or many of the freedoms we take for granted in the United States.

 

[jonnythan]

That's not what you said, so I pointed it out. You stated that you could say whatever you wanted without legal ramifications. Also, while I don't know if libel and slander would directly lead to incarceration, you can certainly be held legally accountable for them. Plus, like I said, there are always consequences. Go up to a stranger that can kick your a** and tell them off - might not be illegal, but I wouldn't advise it.

Slander/libel are civil offenses, not criminal.. and they only apply insofar as you cause another person demonstratable harm (financial or otherwise).

I didn't mention the limitations of free speech in terms of causing violence and causing other forms of actual monetary harm to other people because they don't apply to this conversation.

 

[Adam]

Reviewing the literature, it's not a solely American idea that people are born with inalienable rights they gain solely by being a human being.

This language appears in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as well.

Yep, and the literature was written by humans. So, it doesn't refute my belief that rights exist because people allow them to exist. People believing that they are inherent and writing that doesn't make it so. People not believing it and writing it anyway to make others believe it doesn't make it so, either. I have a neighbor that believed that her house cat weighed 114 pounds (before it passed away) - didn't make it true. Oh, and no - it wasn't a puma.

 

[highfigh]

But there is never a mention of directly killing or instructing one to kill.

Wasn't that the option Muhammad gave his opponents after battle- convert, or be killed?

Also, I have a problem believing what people say after having visions and hearing voices. Muhammad, Brigham Young and many others have created new religions after this for thousands of years and, while I am skeptical, there are only a couple of ways to explain it.

 

[Tarub]

Can we all get along? It's difficult but not impossible.

 

[jinjuku]

Can we all get along? It's difficult but not impossible.

I have no problem getting along. Then again, I don't want to go out and punish someone for making jokes about something I personally believe in.

 

[jinjuku]

Yep, and the literature was written by humans. So, it doesn't refute my belief that rights exist because people allow them to exist. People believing that they are inherent and writing that doesn't make it so. People not believing it and writing it anyway to make others believe it doesn't make it so, either. I have a neighbor that believed that her house cat weighed 114 pounds (before it passed away) - didn't make it true. Oh, and no - it wasn't a puma.

Adam, if your posts thus far had anything salient to do with the current thread, I would say go ahead and knock yourself out.

You are taking certain structures and reducing them to the atomic level here. It's disingenuous. Pointing out that Mother Nature doesn't confer basic levels of human rights ranks right up there with the sun rising everyday.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Its not even about that again I have been in Canada since I was 5 and am as Canadian as anyone else and live and believe in the North American lifestyle and in free speech but there should be boundaries when it comes to free speech and some respect. If someone does not appreciate it when someone pokes fun at him or about something that indirectly affects him or her then maybe someone should respect that. No one makes fun of the Holocaust, killings of African Americans during the slave trade, etc and the same is expected by Muslims and our religion.

Um. If you believe there should be limitations to free speech, I'm glad you can't vote here.

Also, the holocaust isn't funny because it was real... your profit isn't, and on one hand it's funny that people still follow something that science and common sense disproved a long time ago.

...and on the other hand it's sad, because people are dying because of imaginary friends like Mohammed and Jesus.

 

[Adam]

Um. If you believe there should be limitations to free speech, I'm glad you can't vote here.

I don't think that he was saying that there should be legal limitation, but rather personally imposed limitations. Most of us do that already.

Also, the holocaust isn't funny because it was real... your profit isn't, and on one hand it's funny that people still follow something that science and common sense disproved a long time ago.

Now you're just picking a fight. Science and common sense have disproved no such thing, brother. You can believe what you want, and so can others.

...and on the other hand it's sad, because people are dying because of imaginary friends like Mohammed and Jesus.

People die for less, IMO. The question to me is whether or not there is more good than bad that comes from such beliefs.

 

[jinjuku]

Now you're just picking a fight. Science and common sense have disproved no such thing, brother. You can believe what you want, and so can others.

Actually it isn't for science to disapprove the divinity of religious figureheads as much as it is for religion to prove it.

To date there is no proof:

1. The afterlife
2. A soul
3. The immaculate conception of Christ
4. A benevolent creator who sees all

If you are asking me to take all of this 'on faith'... People believing in things that patently do not exist is a sign of mental illness. It doesn't matter if it's one or a billion.

 

[jonnythan]

If there were proof, there would be no faith

 

[MidnightSensi]

I don't think that he was saying that there should be legal limitation, but rather personally imposed limitations. Most of us do that already.

Ah, yeah, my mistake! Sorry to the both of you.

Now you're just picking a fight. Science and common sense have disproved no such thing, brother. You can believe what you want, and so can others.

Not really, I'm fine with people believing in religion if they want, as long as I don't have to pay for it and MASSIVE AMOUNTS of people don't die in the process.

Science and common sense haven't? Come'on.

People die for less, IMO. The question to me is whether or not there is more good than bad that comes from such beliefs.

People die for less?

Crack has killed less people than religion since its synthesis.

I used to not even care, and just laughed the stuff off, but I'm going to pissed if some nuclear bomb blows me up because of this crap.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Actually it isn't for science to disapprove the divinity of religious figureheads as much as it is for religion to prove it.

To date there is no proof:

1. The afterlife
2. A soul
3. The immaculate conception of Christ
4. A benevolent creator who sees all

If you are asking me to take all of this 'on faith'... People believing in things that patently do not exist is a sign of mental illness. It doesn't matter if it's one or a billion.

I think thats an interesting point and I have wondered with all that is going on (which, no doubt, is religiously based) if religious people are mentally ill. But, I don't think that is it, I think it's human nature to seek security. People want to believe that they understanding the meaning of "life" and need to feel like they are a part of something greater.

I think life is amazing in itself. I mean, in order for us to be typing this today it means that everything before us survived long enough to reproduce, all the way through human evolution (the fact that there are people that still believe in creationism with eve and some apples and snakes and stuff is an arguement for your mental illness take on this) ... not one of them being infertile or getting crunched or eaten by something before reproducing.,.. genetically progressing and so on. Pretty damn amazing and good enough of a purpose to life for me. The pure fact that we are here is nothing short of amazing.

Oh, and would Christians stop making white Jesus's?! That's the most retarded thing I have ever seen, a white Jesus. Jesus probably looked a bit more like Mohammed than Jeff Bridges. There weren't even white people there at that time (the time scientists think a guy named Jesus lived). Jesus himself, however, could have very well been a crazy guy. I mean, when I see someone now wandering around playing "prophet" I'm pretty sure they are crazy.

 

[Adam]

I think life is amazing in itself.

I totally agree with you on that. For me, it's all life - didn't use to be, but I've developed that over time.

I mean, in order for us to be typing this today it means that everything before us survived long enough to reproduce....

So true. That's on a species level. Same can be said for each of us individually. However, had one of our ancient ancestors been crunched, or had our line been wiped out by an E.L.E., then there may very well be some other organism discussing whether or not "Bleep" or "Gork" actually existed. Either that, or we'd just be one more lifeless world in the great expanse of the universe.

 

[Adam]

I found the religious portion of Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" to be very educational. Perhaps others here would, as well.

I don't think that it negates the relevance of religions. I think that it helps to explain why religions don't mean much to a lot of people these days.

You can read some of it at the link here.

 

[Cpt.America]

Slander/libel are civil offenses, not criminal..

Depends on the state. They can be Criminal if done in the wrong state... I don't know them all, but Colorado is one of them.

 

[Cpt.America]

To date there is no proof:

1. The afterlife

Not true. Einstein proved there is life after death many years go. Look it up.