Anyone hear of this? Paid Not To Work

[rnatalli]

The US manufacturers pay about $76/hour on average whereas Japanese manufacturers pay $44/hour on average. But one has to wonder why a Camry isn't substantially less expensive than a Fusion. The Japanese are either using better parts, have enormous overhead (other than labor, however labor is usually the largest), are incredibly inefficient, or they have some really nice margins. Any ideas?

 

[darien87]

Second, force Japan into a binding bilateral trade accord that allows American products into Japan. If Japan continues it's de facto embargo of American cars in it's market, then the U.S. should apply all the trade regulations and sanctions against Japanese imports that Japan applies to ours. Also, since current law forces the automakers to keep unions, then unionize all the import transplant factories here to level the playing field.

And how do you propose to do that? The bottom line is that Japan doesn't want American cars. Japan has one of, if not THE most nationalistic cultures on the planet. If we apply tarrifs to Japanese cars, then the price goes up, and JQP gets pissed that his Camry is hella expensive now. And you still haven't solved the problem of public opinion that American cars are inferior to Japanese cars. I drive a Mustang, but the vast majority of people I know drive imports. Here, let me look in my parking lot at work;

BMW, BMW, Mitsubishi, Honda, Honda, Honda, Mitsubishi, Infiniti. Hold the phone, there's a Chevy truck. Oh wait, that's just the gardener.

 

[MidnightSensi]

The US manufacturers pay about $76/hour on average whereas Japanese manufacturers pay $44/hour on average. But one has to wonder why a Camry isn't substantially less expensive than a Fusion. The Japanese are either using better parts, have enormous overhead (other than labor, however labor is usually the largest), are incredibly inefficient, or they have some really nice margins. Any ideas?

They make money whereas American manufacturers loose it.

 

[rnatalli]

They make money whereas American manufacturers loose it.

So we're either getting screwed by using tax dollars to bail out American companies or we're getting gouged by higher prices vs. cost Japanese products. Everyone has their hands in our pockets.

 

[Rickster71]

Really? Do you think that the companies agreed to this situation because they thought it was a nifty idea?

I understand your point Dave; and know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.
Just venting...

If the companies go along with UAW demands willingly or not; the bottom line is, that more and more gets tacked onto the price of a car. So the consumer / taxpayer gets to foot the bill.

The same happens when our government sets ridiculous environmental, and CAFE standards.
The companies know that whatever concessions they make to the UAW, or the government, it all gets passed along to the consumer.

(just an after thought) Ironic, isn't it:
Why is it that no one worries about the middle class tax payer getting so pissed off, they all start rioting?
There were riots after Rodney King , and threats of rioting if the OJ trial went the wrong way.
I wonder why there is never a thought, that the over taxed, price gouged middle class, will ever do anything about it.

I'm gonna go line my closet with tin foil, and hide there for a while...

 

[Davemcc]

BMW, BMW, Mitsubishi, Honda, Honda, Honda, Mitsubishi, Infiniti. Hold the phone, there's a Chevy truck. Oh wait, that's just the gardener.

Ironic, isn't it? That the one person that needs a reliable vehicle to perform work is the only one driving a North American vehicle?

 

[jostenmeat]

And how do you propose to do that? The bottom line is that Japan doesn't want American cars. Japan has one of, if not THE most nationalistic cultures on the planet.

This is way OT, but I agree with your statement. Having been to a bunch of countries, it is IMO that Japan and Switzerland are the most xenophobic in the northern hemisphere. Sorry, just wanted to share my opinion on that. [/done]

 

[rnatalli]

This is way OT, but I agree with your statement. Having been to a bunch of countries, it is IMO that Japan and Switzerland are the most xenophobic in the northern hemisphere. Sorry, just wanted to share my opinion on that. [/done]

Having spent time in Switzerland, I can also attest they're very xenophobic even in Geneva which has a large American and Japanese population (at least used to). However, they do live well over there.

 

[itschris]

Dave has the unique perspective on this issue from the inside. Beyond the disasterous trade agreements in place, what other things do you see that need to be changed?

 

[Davemcc]

Dave has the unique perspective on this issue from the inside. Beyond the disasterous trade agreements in place, what other things do you see that need to be changed?

I'm going to take some time to consider this question. I will start by saying that it's a disaster that the UAW is allowed to represent Ford, GM, Chrysler and nearly all their spin-offs and suppliers like like Visteon, Delphi, American Axle, etc. The UAW literally holds the entire established domestic market in the palm of it's hand. This works to the disadvantage of the working union members, the corporate management, shareholders and consumers.

It works like this: If my CAW union local wanted to protect our jobs by making concessions to make Ford a more productive and profitable company, we can't. Our contracts are negotiated by the same CAW national bargaining team that negotiates with GM and Chrysler. Their goals are the same for all negotiations, to make cookie cutter deals with all three.

Ford, GM and Chrysler are all compelled to compete in the marketplace but the unions are under no such pressure to compete against a competitive union. There's no incentive to increase job security, long term stability or profitability by ensuring that one company or the other gains an advantage in negotiation. The union wins every time.

Back in the 30's or 40's when unions were established in these companies, nobody could have predicted the unbridled power that the unions would gain over the entire market segment by contract, arbitration and legislation enacted since that time. Throughout the decades, the automakers have never had any choice but to submit to whatever whim the union leaders set. Now, the only way to be profitable, to operate productively and competitively, is simply to be a new player in the market, i.e. one not saddled with a union legacy.

GM, Ford and Chrysler simply cannot become "new" non-union automakers nor can they continue in their current situation. At the very least if they must have unions, they should have independent unions that are sensitive to their own individual needs. Let's face it, if the UAW were an actual business it would be disallowed and broken up under anti-trust legislation for conspiring to fix prices and limit competition in the marketplace. Yet, since it's effects are not seen for what they are, the union's activities in the big scheme of things goes largely unnoticed.

 

[darien87]

Nice post Dave.

I didn't know things were so bad. If it makes you feel any better I've had 3 Mustangs over the past 20 years or so. I love's me my throaty V-8. (Though I hating it when gas was almost $5 a gallon).

What is it you do for Ford, if I may ask?

 

[itschris]

Nice post Dave.

I didn't know things were so bad.

It is a very complicated and sophoisticated problem. I honestly believe they're going to have to do something like what Chrysler did years ago with some sort of structured deal.

I think each day that goes by, it becomes more apparent that things will have to drastically change. One thing that does trobuble me in watching the hearings is that I see very little to comfort me that there's any mid, let alone long term strategy by any of the 3. It's almost as if they were all caught completely off guard by the resistance to give them the money and now they're all struggling to come up with answers. It seems they thought they'd go to Congress, get the money, and continue business as ususal. There's not a single one of them who has instilled any confidence in me. They all look woefully ill-prepared and seemingly unable to digest the gravity of what's going on. A CEO getting paid $20 million + should at least be able to command a room and inspire. I've seen none of that.

 

[darien87]

It is a very complicated and sophoisticated problem. I honestly believe they're going to have to do something like what Chrysler did years ago with some sort of structured deal.

I think each day that goes by, it becomes more apparent that things will have to drastically change. One thing that does trobuble me in watching the hearings is that I see very little to comfort me that there's any mid, let alone long term strategy by any of the 3. It's almost as if they were all caught completely off guard by the resistance to give them the money and now they're all struggling to come up with answers. It seems they thought they'd go to Congress, get the money, and continue business as ususal. There's not a single one of them who has instilled any confidence in me. They all look woefully ill-prepared and seemingly unable to digest the gravity of what's going on. A CEO getting paid $20 million + should at least be able to command a room and inspire. I've seen none of that.

The fact that these shmucks flew to DC in 3 separate private jets to ask for a hand-out, alone shows that they have no concept of reality.

 

[Davemcc]

What is it you do for Ford, if I may ask?

Currently, I drive a forklift. As of today, I am off work until Jan. 12. We have to do a little "inventory adjustment" to reduce stock due to the current economy.

Per the subject of this thread, I will not be paid next week at all. Following next week, I will be on unemployment as well as SUB (supplementary unemployment benefits), a fund that is paid into by the company on our behalf based on the number of hours worked. During the weeks of Christmas, I will still get my usual holiday pay instead of unemployment. I'm not sure how the U.S. automakers would handle temporary layoff situations like this.

 

[Alex2507]

Hey Alex, I thought you'd never post you own picture on the internet.
Which one are you?

I never said 'never'. I just thought it wasn't wise but I find your interest flattering.

So I'm a Slut

 

[Lightning Steve]

North American Ingenuity

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile. The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channelled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles. Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and cancelled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.

The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India.

Sadly, The End.

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results: TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses.

(I was sent this)

 

[darien87]

Currently, I drive a forklift. As of today, I am off work until Jan. 12. We have to do a little "inventory adjustment" to reduce stock due to the current economy.

Per the subject of this thread, I will not be paid next week at all. Following next week, I will be on unemployment as well as SUB (supplementary unemployment benefits), a fund that is paid into by the company on our behalf based on the number of hours worked. During the weeks of Christmas, I will still get my usual holiday pay instead of unemployment. I'm not sure how the U.S. automakers would handle temporary layoff situations like this.

Hey Dave,

What's your take on the UAW blocking the bailout?

 

[Davemcc]

Hey Dave,

What's your take on the UAW blocking the bailout?

I would hardly characterize the failure of the package to pass congress as being blocked by the UAW. The bill simply did not have the support to pass. Public opposition to the bill is very high and I think that was reflected in the Senate.

Two issues regarding the UAW that aren't being considered right now are that the damage is already done and that the union has already made significant concessions this year already. It's really the legacy costs of the past decades of contracts that are killing the Big 3, not the current cost of labor. Consider that working UAW members actually earn less now than Toyota's employees. Yet the total cost of labor including retirees' pensions and benefits increases the total labor cost per domestic vehicle. If this were addressed, the domestics would actually be at a level playing field with the foreign transplants on labor costs. Considering that there are more Big 3 workers retired than working, it's hard to imagine that contract negotiations, or Chapter 11 for that matter, could improve this situation without stripping away pensions and benefits from retirees. This defined benefit pension system is the most pressing situation that congress abetted in creating and should be where congress takes responsibility for the result.

Regarding concessions by the union, they have already agreed to work rule changes that will save the companies millions upon millions. They have also agreed that new hires will only earn $14/hour. Over time, UAW members will earn half what the transplants earn with an equal amount going to support retirees, ultimately creating a level playing field in the total cost of labor but on the backs of the next generation of autoworkers. I have to say that the union has stepped up pro-actively to deal with the issues that they can address contractually but the long term structural issues and legacy costs will need to be addressed at some point.

Public opinion, IMHO, is really what blocked the bailout and your question addresses this perfectly. The package presented to congress was not a bailout at all, in the sense of a bailout like the one given to financial institutions which was simply a transfer of wealth from the government to private business with no conditions or expectations. The automakers are seeking loans, not giveaways, to last them until the market improves, new contract conditions take effect and new technology can hit the market. It goes to what I was saying earlier about a double standard being applied to the domestic automakers, i.e. it's fine to squander $800 Billion giving it away to banks but we can't find $15 Billion in loans for an industry that actually produces something tangible.

 

[just-some-guy]

North American Ingenuity

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile. The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channelled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles. Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and cancelled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.

The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India.

Sadly, The End.

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results: TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses.

(I was sent this)

lol, thats pretty good, and pretty sad. just goes to show, that upper management DOESN'T care about the company. except that it keeps lining their pockets.management needs to rethink its way of doing business. but it will not. because a correct rethink would eliminate much/most of management.

 

[Davemcc]

lol, thats pretty good, and pretty sad. just goes to show, that upper management DOESN'T care about the company. except that it keeps lining their pockets.management needs to rethink its way of doing business. but it will not. because a correct rethink would eliminate much/most of management.

Ford has already eliminated 30% of it's management and is considering another management cut on a similar scale. It should have been done a while ago but at least it's done and Ford does not need gov't help to survive.