Looking for Room Layout/Screen/Projector Positioning Advice

C

chrison600

Enthusiast
Hi all,

I recently picked up a used projector "bundle" so I'm finally ready to start installing equipment in my media room. I'm looking for help in finalizing various aspects of the room, such as:

  • Screen height
  • Projector distance from screen and ceiling
  • Seating position and height

I'll pay for expert consulting if that is what's recommended.

Here are the room specs (Measurements are approximate):

Overall length is 16' 9"
Overall width is 12' 4"
Overall height is 10'

The room is oriented/designed such that the viewing direction is along the long axis of the room. At the back of the room there is a 30" wide door on one side and an equipment "closet" on the other that protrudes into the room 2' 10" from the side wall and 5' 4" from the back wall.

I have two couches in the room, one behind the other, positioned in the middle of the room, as dictated by the equipment closet and door (and as intended by the design). The couch dimensions are 6' wide, 3' deep, 3' high, and 18" from the floor surface to the tops of the seat pads. The couches are tentatively positioned one against the back wall, raised 12" from the floor and the other 5' from the back wall, sitting on the floor, leaving approximately 2' between the front of the back couch and the back of the front couch.

Equipment "Specs":

The screen is a 92" Screen Innovations piece. My guess (based on bezel size) is that it's a Performance Fixed series, but I'm not 100% sure.

The projector is an Epson Cinema 550.

The mount is made by Chief, and is their "RPA Series" with a 12" downtube.

I already have a Yamaha 7.1 system waiting to be installed, and speaker positions are pretty much dictated by the prewiring.

Can anyone help me figure out how high on the front wall to mount the screen, how far from the screen to mount the projector, how high to build the riser for the rear couch, whether the position of the couches is ok, etc, etc?

Thank you!!!

Chris
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
You’ll need to look in the projector manual (http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/plc550/plc550ug.pdf) for setting specs for the projector positioning. Distance from the screen to lens front looks to be about 160”.

The screen’s dimensions are about 80” x 45”. The screen’s height position varies based on people’s perspective. Here’s a calculator that can you play with for the screen/riser issue. http://www.theater-calc.com/ I found a 31” screen height a good starting point.

For vertically positioning the projector, the lens needs to be positioned between the top and bottom of the screen. So if the bottom of your screen is at 31” + 45” screen height, your lens needs to be below 76” high.

Hope this helps.
 
C

chrison600

Enthusiast
Thanks AVRat,

So even with the adjustable angle on the projector mount, the lens still has to be positioned somewhere inside the actual screen area?

Thanks,

Chris
 
C

chrison600

Enthusiast
Nevermind, I think I got my answer from the manual you linked me to. It looks like the best picture results from positioning the lens within the boundaries of the screen and using the lens shift function. Positioning outside the screen boundary requires the use of the keystone adjustment, which reduces picture quality...

Chris
 
C

chrison600

Enthusiast
Interesting. The Epson distance calculation application recommends 9' 1".

If I adjust the Projector Central calculator to that throw distance, it indicates the projector would be at max zoom. It appeared that the Projector Central calculator defaulted to "half zoom". Is that done to allow for fine adjustment after everything is hard mounted? That would seem logical to me...

Chris
 
C

chrison600

Enthusiast
Ok - I've been playing a little more. I found some information online regarding THX and SMPTE viewing angle recommendations as well as typical viewing cone specs for human eyesight.

Based on a 15 degree cone being the typical optimal field of human vision, I used trigonometry to figure the maximum screen height while retaining an optimal view field. I used the distance from the screen surface to the primary viewer's eyes (11') as the adjacent side of the triangle, and 15 degrees as the included angle.

The tangent of 15 degrees is approx .268. Multiplying through by 11 gives me about 2.95 or approximately 3 feet. If I add that three feet to the height of the primary viewer's eyes (about 42 inches) I get a limit to the top edge of the screen at 78 inches.

I'm still struggling with it a bit, because the viewer's focal point isn't necessarily in line with the plane of the floor. It could be naturally angled away from or closer to that plane, which would effectively move the optimum screen height up or down.

Another thing I'll need to contend with is the drop for the projector. With a 10' ceiling, I'll need about a 42" drop to get the lens of the projector within the screen boundaries. That's quite a drop, and it positions the projector just a few feet above the primary viewing seating and even closer to the elevated rear seating.

Does anyone have any thoughts about my screen height logic??

Thanks,

Chris
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
Interesting. The Epson distance calculation application recommends 9' 1". I couldn't find your projector in their list to use it.

If I adjust the Projector Central calculator to that throw distance, it indicates the projector would be at max zoom. It appeared that the Projector Central calculator defaulted to "half zoom". Is that done to allow for fine adjustment after everything is hard mounted? That would seem logical to me... That's correct. My original calc at 160" was at max zoom and I forgot to calculate minimum zoom from the manual. But after I did that it fell in line with Projector Central's numbers.:D:p

Chris
Ok - I've been playing a little more. I found some information online regarding THX and SMPTE viewing angle recommendations as well as typical viewing cone specs for human eyesight.

Based on a 15 degree cone being the typical optimal field of human vision, I used trigonometry to figure the maximum screen height while retaining an optimal view field. I used the distance from the screen surface to the primary viewer's eyes (11') as the adjacent side of the triangle, and 15 degrees as the included angle.

The tangent of 15 degrees is approx .268. Multiplying through by 11 gives me about 2.95 or approximately 3 feet. If I add that three feet to the height of the primary viewer's eyes (about 42 inches) I get a limit to the top edge of the screen at 78 inches.

I'm still struggling with it a bit, because the viewer's focal point isn't necessarily in line with the plane of the floor. It could be naturally angled away from or closer to that plane, which would effectively move the optimum screen height up or down.

Another thing I'll need to contend with is the drop for the projector. With a 10' ceiling, I'll need about a 42" drop to get the lens of the projector within the screen boundaries. That's quite a drop, and it positions the projector just a few feet above the primary viewing seating and even closer to the elevated rear seating. That's the problem with some projectors; they don't offer the proper vertical lens shift for a situation like yours (high ceiling). While others have too much vertical lens shift for low ceilings.

Does anyone have any thoughts about my screen height logic??

Thanks,

Chris
You're on the right track! Here's another calculator to help with viewing distance/screen size if you don't have it already: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html
 
C

chrison600

Enthusiast
Thanks AVRat,

I just had another thought: What if I adjust the vertical lens shift to max "drop" and use that to dictate the projector height?

Then again, if the boundaries of lens shift are subject to the lens being located within the screen boundaries, I'm back with the same issue...

Maybe I'll try it in a bit.

Chris
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Random points to make:

-closer zoom gives you more brightnes

-farther zoom gives you more contrast

-using minimal shift would be desired, but using some is no big deal. Its when you max out zoom/shift that may result in reduced PQ, or perhaps more specifically reduced brightness.

-getting viewers off the back wall will be very beneficial, in multiple ways, for audio.

-just as a possible tipping points towards erring on the side of higher screen mounting: if your center speaker is to be below it, keeping it away from the floor will help avoid midbass boosts that will mask dialogue frequency bandwidth. Goal should be over a couple of feet from floor. (Mine is not, but I understand this compromise much better now).

I think the most infallible advice I can possibly give, and I offer this on a weekly basis it seems, is to simply fire the pic at the blank wall, and go from there.

SO MANY PEOPLE ask for perfect screen sizes. Why can't they simply wait a couple of days longer, and be GUARANTEED of having a satisfactory screen size and/or placement??? There was even one fellow just this month I believe, who built all of this shelving, etc, and realized he "predicted" a screen size that was much too small. He ended up fitting the biggest he could, 133", and now all that shelving is wasted time and money. Just driving home a point here. (edit: so in your case, the same might be said of display height. Fire the pic, and see for yourself).


OK, If I am following this thread (which might not necessarily be the case), I would first get your seating off the back wall, if possible. This will also allow more flexibility in surround speakers and placements, let alone escaping muddy bass collecting at this boundary, escaping reflections that arrive so quickly as to be indistuishable from the audio coming directly from speakers, etc. Try 38% room length for the rough starting point, or odd fractions, such as 1/3, 2/5, 3/7, etc.

Fire the pic at the wall. See what you think. When you settle on the size that you enjoy, then you can start getting an idea of how much FL you are acheiving. Once that is known, you may have narrowed down screen material choices, which in of itself may narrow down PJ placement, height, etc.

That's a lot to chew on, but this is all to the best of my knowledge and experience.

p.s. Oops, you have the screen already. Hm. Anyways, a lot of what I said might still help you out.
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
Chris, regarding post #7 I wanted to point out 1 or 2 things that you may not have realized.

Ok - I've been playing a little more. I found some information online regarding THX and SMPTE viewing angle recommendations as well as typical viewing cone specs for human eyesight. Their recommendations of 15 degree vertical and 36 degree horizontal viewing angles equate to a 2.40:1 aspect ratio not 16:9 like most screens.

Based on a 15 degree cone being the typical optimal field of human vision, I used trigonometry to figure the maximum screen height while retaining an optimal view field. I used the distance from the screen surface to the primary viewer's eyes (11') as the adjacent side of the triangle, and 15 degrees as the included angle.

The tangent of 15 degrees is approx .268. Multiplying through by 11 gives me about 2.95 or approximately 3 feet. This is now your new viewing area height, which changes the viewing area to be 64" x 36", 73.5" dia. Smaller than your current screen. If I add that three feet to the height of the primary viewer's eyes (about 42 inches, which is the new height of the bottom edge of your viewing area) I get a limit to the top edge of the screen (viewing area) at 78 inches.
 
B

bpape

Audioholic Chief
General rule of thumb is that seated eye height in the primary seating is 1/3 up the visible part of the screen.

THX recommended minimum included horizontal viewing angle is 36 degrees.

None of the seating should be against a wall. That's a place for a TON of bass to build up and you'll have frequency response and dialog intelligibility issues. Optimal starting point for the first row is 62% of the room length to seated ear position. Place the rear couch as far from the back wall as you can without interference to the front row.

Riser height will be determined by line of sight from rear row to bottom of screen after front to back positioning is established.

Bryan
 
C

chrison600

Enthusiast
OK - Regarding viewing angles. The SMPTE and THX specs are only for vertical dimensions (i.e. 30 and 36, respectively). The 15 degree horizontal I used for estimating screen height was derived from typical human optimal cone of vision.

Discussing horizontals first:

When comparing a calculation for horizontal viewing angles for a 2.40:1 vs a 16:9 screen, I'll assume that the only difference would be the distance from the screen. To get a 36 degree viewing angle on a 16:9 screen, you'd have to be closer than for a 2.40:1. Yes?

I used the tool at http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html, to derive my distance from the screen, and the only screen options provided were 4:3 and 16:9. Using the 16:9 option and my 92" screen size (leaving distance blank), the tool recommends around 10.5' for THX spec and 12.5' for SMPTE spec.

If I move my (primary seating) couch back far enough to meet the THX spec, the rear couch HAS to go on the back wall. My room is only 16+ feet deep. If I want two rows of seating, AND to get close to the THX/SMPTE specs for distance, I'd need a room in the neighborhood of 20-25 feet deep to put the entire seating area in the audio "sweet spot". Unfortunately, I didn't build my media room that big.

If the tool above is right (or close) I will have to sacrifice rear row audio quality in order to optimize primary row viewing distance.

Am I on track?

Regarding vertical viewing angles and screen height:

I don't quite understand the dimensions you arrived at AVRat. I wasn't trying to determine screen size, only screen height.

I used trig to calculate the height of the top edge of my screen. Adding the length of the "wall" side of a view triangle to the height of my viewer's eyes gave me the maximum height I could place the top edge of the screen and still keep the screen surface within that 15 degree cone/triangle.

I prioritized the position of the top edge rather than the bottom because I was trying to get the screen as high as I could for projector mounting purposes.

Of course, all that dimensioning will change if I move the seating.

Thanks for all the help everyone. I always tend to over analyze these kinds of things, but in general it helps with the quality of the final product...

Chris
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
Last edited:
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
OK - Regarding viewing angles. The SMPTE and THX specs are only for vertical dimensions (i.e. 30 and 36, respectively). The 15 degree horizontal I used for estimating screen height was derived from typical human optimal cone of vision.
I think you might understand now, but if not, its horizontal we've been talking about. Refer to link above for vert.

Discussing horizontals first:

When comparing a calculation for horizontal viewing angles for a 2.40:1 vs a 16:9 screen, I'll assume that the only difference would be the distance from the screen. To get a 36 degree viewing angle on a 16:9 screen, you'd have to be closer than for a 2.40:1. Yes?
No. Well, not necessarily. It all depends on screen width for this measurement, HOWEVER, with a wider aspect such as 2.4, you can often sit closer. For many crazy videophiles, they use a 1 to 1 screen width : seating distance ratio. This is too close, IMO, for 16:9 viewing. And that comes from someone who likes it really big.

So, you will have to consider the quality of your source material, as well as the ARs you mostly watch. I watch mostly wider aspects and exclusively watch native hidef. That's why I can put the front row at 42 deg, for my tastes.

I used the tool at http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html, to derive my distance from the screen, and the only screen options provided were 4:3 and 16:9. Using the 16:9 option and my 92" screen size (leaving distance blank), the tool recommends around 10.5' for THX spec and 12.5' for SMPTE spec.
With MY preferred viewing angle, I would be at slightly closer than 9 ft. If I actually had a 2.40:1 screen, you can bet the farm I would be even closer, if only a little.

If I move my (primary seating) couch back far enough to meet the THX spec, the rear couch HAS to go on the back wall. My room is only 16+ feet deep. If I want two rows of seating, AND to get close to the THX/SMPTE specs for distance, I'd need a room in the neighborhood of 20-25 feet deep to put the entire seating area in the audio "sweet spot". Unfortunately, I didn't build my media room that big.
Going by what I said above, you would probably have a couple feet away from back wall. Every bit will help you . . . but, yeah, its a tough balancing act.

If the tool above is right (or close) I will have to sacrifice rear row audio quality in order to optimize primary row viewing distance.
Quite plausible.

Am I on track?
We hope so.



Thanks for all the help everyone. I always tend to over analyze these kinds of things, but in general it helps with the quality of the final product...

Chris
OK. Can no one hear me? Is there ANYTHING WRONG with firing the pic at a blank wall? Its much, much, much easier and its much, much, much more accurate in acheiving total satisfaction.

No one I know using this method has any regret. There are waaaaay too many folks who do have regrets when they attempt to over-analytically predict. I assume you read the little anecdote I shared in my last post.

I have a hard time coming up with an analogy, but I'll feebly attempt one. To me, over-analytically predicting screen size, rather than throwing up the pic itself to see, is akin to taking mulitple measurements of your chest, waist, arms, neck, etc, to see if a shirt fits just right and looks good, and then ordering the $300-1000 piece on-line. Its easier just to try the shirt on, less hassle, be absolutely sure, and THEN order it online.

Then add personal preference into the equation, (some like it loose, some it tight, some might want to show off their guns, some might want to hide their gut, blah blah blah blah) :rolleyes::confused::p:(:eek::D
 
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