Projector in this room... is it doable?

J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
ragged,

This is my last response to you here, because you are trolling tRiXtA's thread.

ragged, by double, I do mean area, not any single dimension such as width.

He "would" need 3' on each side, if he wanted to have the speakers directly to the side of display. If you look at jvgillow's pic, or actually could comprehend my posts, you would see that I was recommending that the display go over the speakers.

I have noticed that there are only two AHers that have succeeded with three identical fronts, on the same plane. They happen to be jvgillow and rumonkey2. Please note how the display is above the front three in both of these cases.

He doesn't have to do this of course. In fact, since you can't really read too well, I will iterate to you that the OP has not yet said if this is going to be possible or impossible yet. You are the one speaking on the OP's behalf. Not me.

Another thing you simply cannot wrap your very small head around is the concept of various aspect ratio screens. It seems this is utterly impossible for you to understand. Let's see, what analogy can I come up with for you... Ok, how about this one: We often recommend greater diaganols than what a typical noobie would want in their brand new HDTV. Why? Because 50" at 4:3 represents so much more area than 50" at 16:9. Does this make any sense? I suppose not. :rolleyes: Why do I feel like I am utterly wasting time here.... :rolleyes:

This is why you can quite effectively use a larger diameter for wider AR's. Now, 99% of us here do in fact use 16:9 screens. However, with projector setups, you can have any darn AR that you please. Seriously, any. The Pana 3000 has three programmable presets for focus and zoom.

So, seeing how many persons with anamorphic setups use a 1:1 screen width:veiwing distance ratio (iirc, mperfct might've said he uses 1.1:1, or it was someone else in the anamorphic thread here), at 8 ft, the corresponding screen width would also be 8 ft. The corresponding display height would now be about 3.33 ft. Something I've already gone over here. There is plenty of space. This screen is 22.2 square feet. Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty darn large increase in size.

I hope your 19" TV is actually your computer monitor. Its either that, or you wasted money on 720p resolution, unless your couch is about 3 ft away from your tv.

If you don't believe me, just check out the graph that ThA tRiXtA made for us.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/tha_trixta/resolution2.png
 
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R

ragged

Senior Audioholic
Hey tRiXtA, get a pj, and that's the best advice you'll ever get.
 
Votrax

Votrax

Audioholic
The biggest issue you'll have is finding a projector that will project an image as small as you want from your back wall. If you put your projector on the back wall you'll be looking at a 18' throw distance. Here are a few popular projectors and diagonal image size with a throw distance of 18' and zoom set to 1.0x.

Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080: 86"
Panasonic Home PT-AE3000: 93"
Optoma HD80: 111"
Mitsubishi HC6000: 109"
BenQ W5000: 112"
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Very good point, Vortax. Never really thinking CIH all the way through, was I... If the 16:9 image is at, say, 92", but projected on to a 2.40 screen, the width of full-screen 2.40 is now 9 ft. It would be about 1.1 to 1 ratio, but there is not enough width to accommodate the corresponding 2.4 screen with OP's wishes.

(That translates to a 117" 2.40 screen. A 92" 1.77 image should fit perfectly, vertically speaking, if I did my math right.)

86". No CIH obviously, but that 16:9 screen is a little over 6ft in width.

Too bad about no CIH with back wall mounting. Still can do a 16:9 screen, but will have to suffer with smaller displays when movies are recorded in wider ARs. He'll just have to suffer like the rest of us mere mortals, myself included. :p
 
mperfct

mperfct

Audioholic Samurai
Another AH'ers setup. This is anamorphic, CIH type, belongs to mperfct:
Do it tRiXtA!
Man, that's a great looking theater! :D

I think my screen/PJ/Lens/materials was easily under $4k. I'd say it was probably about $3300. That includes the screen wall wood, SeymourAV material, frame, velvet wrap, AT cloth, Optoma HD80, Cavx MkII w/ CA coating, and mount.

I highly recommend it, and the only change I would do is to get a quieter, cooler PJ. The HD80 throws an awesome pic, but it's like one of those garage heaters.
 
ThA tRiXtA

ThA tRiXtA

Full Audioholic
Ok guys, am back and armed with some more understanding.

Firstly, I really appreciate all of your replies. I just want to say, this is a discussion forum. We're here because we like to talk about this stuff. If no one posted questions, we wouldn't have anything to talk about! Don't get so worked up because people are trying to learn. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Ok, back on topic.

I think I definitely decided on the Panasonic PT-AE3000U. (I'm actually making progress!)

Josten, you'll be happy to know that I have also mostly decided to mount a 2.35:1 screen above my front left and right tower speakers. I calculate that I can accommodate an 88" diagonal screen on the wall given a 26" space on the left and right side of the screen for my AV rack. The framed size of this screen will be 85.2" wide x 38.6" high.

This would place the bottom edge of the screen roughly at 39" off the floor, the top of the screen would end up being right to the top of the ceiling, being 78" high.

I have some reservations that a screen that starts at 39" and goes to 78" may be too high to comfortably watch... if any of you have any data on this I'm interested. JVGillow, what is the height of your screen from the floor?

Alternatively, I could go with an acoustically transparent pull down screen (do they make such a thing?) and mount it in front of my equipment which would allow me to go wider, with no height concerns, however that would then take my viewing distance from 10' to like 7.5 feet... might be a little too close. Thoughts?

Also, in moving the screen closer to the couch, it would greatly increase the chances that the projector beam would be impeded by the couch, if my calculations are correct?

A few loose ends... PS3's only output a 16:9 resolution. If I were to project this on my 2.35:1 screen am I going to lose picture off the top and bottom or will the game look squished? From what I have researched, any aspect ratio taller than 2.35:1 gets zoomed out so it fits, but without actually being able to see it with my own eyes in front of me I'm curious as to how it will turn out. Kind of hoping someone else with this actual set up can comment.

Josten: If I mount the screen above my two main towers, I cannot buy a third main tower for a center channel as they don't manufacture my speakers anymore. I looked, I was going to buy one.

However, I was going to mount my MTM center channel on my sub woofer that is going to be placed right in the middle of the front wall. I could rotate it so it stands on it's side on top of the sub so it actually looks/acts like my other two towers... think this would be a better option than going with the MTM layout?

Thanks again all. Have a great weekend.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I think I definitely decided on the Panasonic PT-AE3000U. (I'm actually making progress!)
I was thinking about ya last night, and I started to worry a bit. My main concern is the issue of time for you. You mentioned this room needs to be done before all of your other rooms. Is this absolutely true? You are going to want at least a few weeks, I presume, to really find out if this can work for you. I'm starting to have doubts . . . I mean... I MYSELF, would make it WORK, no question... but I'd also be willing to use a shelf of some sort in the middle of the room. As it is, my PJ sits on a bookshelf, where all my movies are stored.

Josten, you'll be happy to know that I have also mostly decided to mount a 2.35:1 screen above my front left and right tower speakers. I calculate that I can accommodate an 88" diagonal screen on the wall given a 26" space on the left and right side of the screen for my AV rack. The framed size of this screen will be 85.2" wide x 38.6" high.
Its not going to work at the throw length. You must excuse me for my oversight here, as I've never played with any kind of CIH, or ever really investigated this stuff. Anamorphic was always beyond my means, as far as I knew. The Panny changes the playing field in a big way, but the throw is too long for the pic to be small enough, when using a 2.4 screen. See, the 16:9 images have to shrink even further than the so called 88" diagonal.

IOW, if PJ must be back wall mounted, you are stuck with 16:9, outside of going anamorphic like mperfect. He did it within a very attainable budget, but he is the rarity. You'll have to ask him. There is a long anamorphic thread in this PJ subforum. Anyways, someone elsewhere listed the pros/cons of zoom (panny) vs anamorphic lens.

Zoom:
+ pixel perfect
+ inexpensive (no lens)
- need to have a very good black level, or very dark front wall.

Lens:
+ more potential light (all pixels being used)
- expensive lens
- not pixel perfect

Alternatively, I could go with an acoustically transparent pull down screen (do they make such a thing?) and mount it in front of my equipment which would allow me to go wider, with no height concerns, however that would then take my viewing distance from 10' to like 7.5 feet... might be a little too close. Thoughts?
Too close to make PJ worthwhile, IMO, I think anyways.

Also, in moving the screen closer to the couch, it would greatly increase the chances that the projector beam would be impeded by the couch, if my calculations are correct?
Here is a riser height calculator. I suppose you can use it to get an idea . . . for PJ's necessitated height vs screen height.
http://www.theater-calc.com/

However, I was going to mount my MTM center channel on my sub woofer that is going to be placed right in the middle of the front wall. I could rotate it so it stands on it's side on top of the sub so it actually looks/acts like my other two towers... think this would be a better option than going with the MTM layout?
I don't know enough. I'd ask this specific question in the speaker forum. The only thing I can think of are some directional waveguides/lens/phase-diffusers or something that might preclude vertical orientation. Beyond me in any case.

Thanks again all. Have a great weekend.
You too, man.
 
ThA tRiXtA

ThA tRiXtA

Full Audioholic
I was thinking about ya last night, and I started to worry a bit. My main concern is the issue of time for you. You mentioned this room needs to be done before all of your other rooms. Is this absolutely true? You are going to want at least a few weeks, I presume, to really find out if this can work for you. I'm starting to have doubts . . . I mean... I MYSELF, would make it WORK, no question... but I'd also be willing to use a shelf of some sort in the middle of the room. As it is, my PJ sits on a bookshelf, where all my movies are stored.
I have time. When I said that I can't avoid any more prolonging, I meant that I can't decide to go down one route then have to double back and go with the original train of thought.

I have about a month till the carpet installer can get out to my place anyway, so it's all good.

Its not going to work at the throw length. You must excuse me for my oversight here, as I've never played with any kind of CIH, or ever really investigated this stuff. Anamorphic was always beyond my means, as far as I knew. The Panny changes the playing field in a big way, but the throw is too long for the pic to be small enough, when using a 2.4 screen. See, the 16:9 images have to shrink even further than the so called 88" diagonal.
So basically I am out of luck at using any anamorphic setup at a throw distance of 18 feet is what you're saying? :( There's no way whatsoever to make it work?

If I were to go 16:9 this changes everything.

Damn, just when I thought I had bugged you guys enough and I was making progress I find myself back at the drawing board. Maybe I should just go back to the plasma rather than keep screwing around?

My next room I will build it around a projector, for sure.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
So basically I am out of luck at using any anamorphic setup at a throw distance of 18 feet is what you're saying? :( There's no way whatsoever to make it work?
Oh, an anamorphic lens might work perfectly fine... but that is invariably more money, and more research.

It's the zoom method that the Pana features automatically that will not work at that throw with your constraints.

If I were to go 16:9 this changes everything.
Yeah, I think 16:9 will still work fine. Even at the "modest" screen sizes you are thinking about should be roughly double the display area of a 60" plasma.

Damn, just when I thought I had bugged you guys enough and I was making progress I find myself back at the drawing board. Maybe I should just go back to the plasma rather than keep screwing around?
Everything you learn now will help you later anyways. The plasma is very easy. Even someone who hasn't researched anything at all could mount one and enjoy, all in a single day. What I am saying is that this plasma route is always available to you during this research, and you won't really need to make any more effort, purely outside of finding a good deal.

I even presume that you are still keeping your eyes out for a good deal on a plasma.

TT, will you repost right here some of the salient constraints/measurements once again. It always takes time for me to try and find any particular one among either the posts here, or in the PMs.

length of room= 19 ft?
max width of screen if between speakers was .... maybe ... 6ft? less?
etc.

Thanks.

Obviously, there are many ways to skin a cat.
-smaller 16:9
-don't mount pj on back wall
-anamorphic lens
-AT screen (while not having a very large display, you will have locked audio)
-plasma
 
ThA tRiXtA

ThA tRiXtA

Full Audioholic
I don't think going the anamorphic lens route is a good $$$$ expenditure for me at this time.

Curious, if you go with a 16:9 screen and projector, is your display technically still an HD 1920x1080 resolution because you're not getting the full vertical output resolution?

From what I have read if you don't go with a 2.35:1 setup you're losing up to 33% of your vertical resolution... so wouldn't your vertical resolution be only 712 lines instead of 1080... technically not HD?

Room length is 19'
Room width 11' 6"
Room height 6' 6"

AV rack 26" wide, 46" high
Tower speaker 38" high, 8" wide

Max width between two speakers is about 66 to 69"

If I were to do 16:9 in between the speakers, I could go maximum of 72" diagonal framed screen.
 
S

Sherardp

Audioholic
I don't think going the anamorphic lens route is a good $$$$ expenditure for me at this time.

Curious, if you go with a 16:9 screen and projector, is your display technically still an HD 1920x1080 resolution because you're not getting the full vertical output resolution?

From what I have read if you don't go with a 2.35:1 setup you're losing up to 33% of your vertical resolution... so wouldn't your vertical resolution be only 712 lines instead of 1080... technically not HD?

Room length is 19'
Room width 11' 6"
Room height 6' 6"

AV rack 26" wide, 46" high
Tower speaker 38" high, 8" wide

Max width between two speakers is about 66 to 69"

If I were to do 16:9 in between the speakers, I could go maximum of 72" diagonal framed screen.
Is there an objection to placing your media rack on the side or back wall and then pulling speaker cables to the front of the room. And if you are to go 16:9 you dont lose HD at all. Its just the aspect ration so nothing changes. Again you can maximize screen by using a low profile rack that is built wide and not up. Center can go on top of your rack. You should be able to easily fit 80-90 inch screen in there if you went that route. Or as I mentioned before electric screen paired with the Panny 3000U and be done. The main purpose of the pj is to go larger screen, less coin, 72 inches is a waste of time and thats just being honest. At least try to make a 90 work.

Another option, pull the PJ forward, use your current rack if its built upright, set your pj on that behind you, pull speaker cables to front, use center channel stand up front, I use Lovan M2. and go that route. This can work, just have to know what youre working with, so dont give up.

Gear rack in the back of the theater


Screen Wall


Seating

 
ThA tRiXtA

ThA tRiXtA

Full Audioholic
Is there an objection to placing your media rack on the side or back wall and then pulling speaker cables to the front of the room. And if you are to go 16:9 you dont lose HD at all. Its just the aspect ration so nothing changes. Again you can maximize screen by using a low profile rack that is built wide and not up. Center can go on top of your rack. You should be able to easily fit 80-90 inch screen in there if you went that route. Or as I mentioned before electric screen paired with the Panny 3000U and be done. The main purpose of the pj is to go larger screen, less coin, 72 inches is a waste of time and thats just being honest. At least try to make a 90 work.

Another option, pull the PJ forward, use your current rack if its built upright, set your pj on that behind you, pull speaker cables to front, use center channel stand up front, I use Lovan M2. and go that route. This can work, just have to know what youre working with, so dont give up.
First off, nice room Sherard. I like it. What size is the screen you chose?

I am hesitant to move the av rack somewhere else as I ran in wall conduit everywhere from behind where the AV rack sits. It would be a shame to go from no visible wiring to wires running everywhere.

I thought about your idea with the electric screen, but I expressed my worries earlier in the threrad that if I were to install an acoustically transparent pull down screen, it would leave me with an 8 foot viewing distance which may be a little too close for comfort, and josten seemed to agree. Does your opinion differ? It would solve my screen size woes and allow me to go with any number of ratios...

I do agree with you that a jump up from a 60 inch plasma to just a 72" projector may not be worth all the leg work in the end... and that's just being realistic.
 
Votrax

Votrax

Audioholic
I thought about your idea with the electric screen, but I expressed my worries earlier in the threrad that if I were to install an acoustically transparent pull down screen, it would leave me with an 8 foot viewing distance which may be a little too close for comfort, and josten seemed to agree. Does your opinion differ? It would solve my screen size woes and allow me to go with any number of ratios...
Couldn't you move your couch behind the column and against the left wall? How about a DLP stand in lieu of the AV rack which would allow for a wider screen? My room is 12'6" wide and I have a 106" screen.
 

Attachments

S

Sherardp

Audioholic
Couldn't you move your couch behind the column and against the left wall? How about a DLP stand in lieu of the AV rack which would allow for a wider screen? My room is 12'6" wide and I have a 106" screen.
Agreed a rack like this is the one I was attempting to mention above. I think it will work, once PJ location is determined, etc. Run Speaker cable under carpet using flat speaker cable if required. My room is 14x22, screen is 16:9, 126 diagonal from Carada.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Well, this is what is apparent to me...

tRiXtA has put a lot sweat, time, blood, tears, pride, thought, and planning into this room so far.

Aesthetics seem to play an extremely important role here.

The plasma is easier, and it will "work" nicely. I would even say that as the discussion progresses, the OP would apparently be inclined to forgo the PJ route.


HOWEVER, if I may speak for many of us who do own a PJ setup, I really, really, really doubt that Sherardp, Votrax, mperfct, or I would ever want to swap out our PJ system for a plasma of the same cost. Even in that exact same room. I would even go out on a limb and say that we would probably even go to the extent of suffering in poorer aesthetic surroundings to do so.

If you have conduit running thru all the side walls. you can have an open rack, say behind that post, and run some speaker wire thru it. You can have one single HDMI cable, covered, to the PJ nearer the middle of the room, on any kind of shelving. *Not having the lights up front is a very, very, very, very good thing anyways*. (Hell, an expert today was recommending to black out the BACK wall!) The problem I see here is that the OP already took the time, sweat, blood, and tears to plan and execute all of this. Yes, it IS too bad we didn't even discuss this PJ stuff at the beginning of your preparations.

The point I want to make is that the difference, IMO, between a 60" plasma and a display double to triple that, at our viewing distance discussed is rather incomparable. You know when you were younger, you remember particular movies.... that for some reason impressed you so, that you remember the actual theater, where you were seated, etc? This is the same kind of thing. I know my friends, many of them, have experienced this feeling at my place. On multiple occassions. Hell, I have a friend who has seen the entire Band of Brothers at his place, and he doesn't think he can watch anymore than two episodes so far at my place, because its so overwhelmingly intense. Its a different experience, entirely. His brother, OTOH, wanted to sit in the front row, even at 16:9, to be even more immersed. Or do you remember seeing LOTR for the first time in the theater, and you may not have been self-conscious about it, but your heartrate is significantly raised? This is the same sort of thing. I even wondered about the impacts on my health, because yes, my heartrate has been raised for extended periods of time on multiple occasions. I've never, ever, quite experienced that on a 60" plasma, 60-67" DLP, 50" SXRD, etc. I've called out to friend's sitting right next to me before, and they just couldn't hear me; they just simply could not believe what they were seeing. I mean they probably hear some distant subliminal voice, but they could NOT register what was being said to them, or that anything at all was being said thing. Stupified, utterly. All in all, its an entirely different experience, and that's why I speak on the behalf of others: we'd sacrifice to make it work. Its just so worth it, IMO.

So tRiXtA, this is my nutshell point of view, atm.

1. I am now very much doubting you want to go the PJ route, because you would be unwilling to:
2. mount PJ closer and/or put equipment elsewhere
3. I believe if you watched just one single movie at sherard's, votrax's, mperfct, or at my place, you would throw your intended plans out the window. In fact, I would bet very good money on it.
4. None of those who have helped with the PJ discussion here would install a plasma in that room. As we are pretty familiar with the extremely different experience that a cinematic immersion can provide, we would simply make it work out. End of story, period.


*You've got a dedicated room in a basement. Trust me, if every AHer did, this PJ subforum would have 100x the activity.

*You've got a nice budget. Trust me, if every AHer did, this PJ subforum would have 100x the activity.

Just my thoughts. But, its you that has to be happy. You're the one that's going to be watching in there.

And on that note.... I think the aspects involving such a decision might now have been covered for the most part. FWIW, I think BMXTRIX might've said to do the plasma first anyways, and go from there. As you might remember, I was advising a $1400 Panasonic 50" plasma, a $2500 Pana PJ, and a screen of a few hundred dollars. Heck, say $500, that's $4.4k. Are you going to pay more than that for your 60" plasma?

Some pics, 46" Sammy vs 133" display
screen up
screen down

rmk's plasma/pj combo (old pics)
screen up

IIRC, I think he's going to get a bigger screen soon(?)
screen down

cheers my friend.
 
S

Sherardp

Audioholic
+1 and well said JM. I'd figure it out and make it work in that room. I think he can pull it off without problem.
 
ThA tRiXtA

ThA tRiXtA

Full Audioholic
Nice post Jostenmeat. You covered some great ground and made some amazing points. All of you guys have, honestly. Thanks.

Guys, I don't want you to think I am turning my back on what you're saying, and I'm not really "inclined" on going the plasma route. I really do "want" a projector, but I also don't "want" to have to double back on a lot of the planning and decisions I have already constructed and committed to in terms of room layout, wire management and general aesthetics.

To turn back now when I had all the materials in place to do an extremely clean install and appease the WAF is not something that she would take kindly towards.

Here's kind of the deal... You know how we all are, start out with something modest, a few upgrades here, a few more there. Get a new house. Plan this awesome room. Get excited about some new stuff halfway through, buy that and sell the stuff that you thought you were going to use and alter your plans. I find this hobby very easy to get carried away with.

I have done that with a few things already since I started building this room, and I want to be able to continue this hobby in my next house. If I were to say to her now, ok, I am going to change my mind, get a projector based setup regardless of cost, whether that cost be aesthetic or abandoning materials and supplies I have already installed in the wall... well, that may just be the straw that breaks the camels back. She hates when I waste money on poor planning or poorly executed decision making, and to be totally honest I can't blame her.

In my opinion, considering the throw distance of 18', coupled with the fact that without doing major room arranging, I can't go with a screen less than 96" to be able to project an image properly at 16:9... even though the biggest screen my wall/equipment can handle is 72" is just a mess waiting to happen.

I have done some thinking and the original intent of this thread was "can this room function with a projector?" I think we have arrived at a definitive answer, which is one of these scenarios: "yes, but..."

At this time, I don't think all the "buts" are worth it for me. I do comprehend how kick *** a screen of a 100"+ would be. That picture you linked where it shows the plasma display under the screen is amazing.

All is not lost, however. This house I am in right now is not permanent. Asides from learning a ton of an area of home theater I was previously clueless about, I also am already starting to devise in my head exactly what I want in my next house... which just so happens to be an acoustically transparent 2.4:1 fixed screen with an electronic 16:9 screen mounted in front of that to accommodate several aspect ratios. ;)

Now that, gentlemen, will be something to regard.

As I was saying, I did not come out of this empty handed. I wouldn't even have known to do such a thing prior to this endeavor.

Thanks for all your help. It's been fun. I hope you're all still around for my next kick at the cat, because that's when I will really pull out all the stops. This room was never meant to be the best of the best... let's face it, there are certain pre-existing factors (such as the ceiling height, I could name more) that limit how fully functional this room could be. I really just view this as a practice run, and in my next house I can more confidently apply all my gained knowledge into a "true" dedicated home theater, not just a "rec room."

Cheers guys.
 
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ThA tRiXtA

ThA tRiXtA

Full Audioholic
LOL Josten you read my mind... truth be told I was already looking at that 65" Panasonic.

I found the weight of it somewhere on the net, what site that was escapes me at the moment but it stated it weighs 198 pounds. For some reason Panasonic does not list the weight of that model TV.

From further research I see that most of these plasmas feature removable speakers and bases which would lighten it's weight considerably. If I can get it down below 175 pounds then it would appear I can swing that.

Can anyone confirm that the 198 pounds was either with the speakers on or off?

On a side note, a few sites around the net are selling the 6020FD for between $3200 to $3700 US... Do you guys think there will be any deals coming with the US holiday sale?
 
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S

Sherardp

Audioholic
Well enjoy the 60 incher I guess. Guess I'll go watch my 126er and lounge out for a while. I thought you were going to post saying u bought the Panny 3000U.
 
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