Tax Plans - McCain vs. Obama made Simple

[Halon451]

I came across this, and figured I would begin a new thread - it actually puts the vastly different tax plans of both candidates into a perspective that is easy to get your mind around. I'm not going to make any distinctions on who or what or why I think one is better than the other, just thought I would put this out there and let you all decide...

Let the rock throwing begin.

Link

 

[jonnythan]

I don't support either of these candidates. And neither system makes sense to me.

McCain plans to lower everyone's taxes? What sense does it make to lower rich people's taxes more than middle class families' taxes?

 

[aberkowitz]

The thing very misleading about that chart is that at least 60% of the bottom 3 groups don't pay any taxes to begin with. Obama has admitted that by giving income tax cuts to people at the bottom he's trying to offset the burden of payroll tax, sales tax, and potentially property tax (although if you're poor enough you probably don't own any sort of property) for these people. The problem here is that sales and property taxes are state and local run taxes- it should not be the federal government's responsibility to offset state and local taxes.

 

[Alamar]

Since when has "it's not the government's responsibility" actually stopped the feds from doing exactly what they feel like they can get away with?

 

[aberkowitz]

Since when has "it's not the government's responsibility" actually stopped the feds from doing exactly what they feel like they can get away with?

Very valid point....

 

[itschris]

I don't support either of these candidates. And neither system makes sense to me.

McCain plans to lower everyone's taxes? What sense does it make to lower rich people's taxes more than middle class families' taxes?

Depending on which independent not-political/partisian stats you view, the top 10% of earners pay approximately 70% of the tax burden. Being that I'm in the $250K plus group, Obama's plan will dramatically increase my taxes. You wouldn't believe how much I already pay. I will tell you that I often question whether or not it's actually worth it to accept all the added pressure, risk, and other tangible/intangible downsides of higher compensation only to be penalized so heavily for doing so.

The fact of the matter is, the more you have the more you spend and that's what drives the economy. The lowest brackets have a drastically less affect on the economy simply because of descretionary spending habits. If you let me keep more, I'll spend more... but key in that are the results of that equation...which are vastly disproportionate based on where the distribution of money goes. When you take $10K from me, it gets spent very differently then when you parse it out in $100 increments to 100 different lower bracket earners. it's not a zero sum game as most liberal tax pundits expect you to believe.

Call me what you want... but I certainly do not want to give anymore of my money away simply to iimprove someone else's lot in life. I already do that through my charitable giving to people who really need it. I would never expect people who make much more money than me to supplement my income beyond what I've earned. It's this outright sense of entitlement... that I should receive more than I earn, that so many in our country so steadfastly believe in that caused much of our current fiscal woe. Yes, I wish everyone could have a house, a fancy car, go on that great vacation, etc., but the reality is, no one ever guaranteed that to you, so why just expect it. I've come across many people who tell me they can't afford health insurance, yet have a nice plasma in their living room. Too many don't want to accept that sometimes you just can't have the things you want... that you need to do without those things to fulfill the responsibilities of the things you need. Sure, that kinda sucks, but isn't that being responsible? In the past, I've made more money than I do now and I've been flat broke and had to stay with my mother for a spell. You know what... as bad, as humiliating, and as luxury-free as it was, I never once expected anyone to give me a handout. I never once thought that if only people who had more money than me would just give more of it up... I could be better off. The fact is, my motivation to attain the wants and not just meet and even fall short of meeting the needs, is what drives me.

 

[Exit]

Look Closer at McCain's Tax Plans


McCain Tax Plan For Average Income Wage Earner ($66,354)

Health Plan Expense: Employer’s contribution (est. $8,000) X Personal Tax Rate (25%) = $2,000 additional tax

Health Plan Expense: Employees contribution (est. $2,407) X Personal Tax Rate (25%) = $601.75 additional tax

Flexible Spending Account (FSA) ($2,000) X Personal Tax Rate (25%) = $500 additional tax

McCain Soc Sec Substitute Plan Funding Income ($5,000) X Personal Tax Rate (25%) = $1,250 additional tax

$4,352 additional tax total

less $319 Proposed McCain Tax Decrease (washingtonpost.com data)

Net Total = $4,033 additional tax per year

(Note: There could be more taxes than these few taxes I found at first glance.)

Additional Soc Sec Substitute Plan Expense (est current soc. sec cost of $6,076/yr)
$5,000 plan funding income
-$1250 tax at 25%
$3,750 available funds

$6,076 plan cost
-$3,750 funds available
$2,326 additional funds due

 

[Mort Corey]

Too many don't want to accept that sometimes you just can't have the things you want... that you need to do without those things to fulfill the responsibilities of the things you need.

Hey, I rremember that song

Mort

 

[Halon451]

It's this outright sense of entitlement... that I should receive more than I earn, that so many in our country so steadfastly believe in that caused much of our current fiscal woe.

Bingo - I see all the flaws in McCain's plan, so nothing posted here is going to educate me any further, I truly believe we are screwed either way.

However, itschris hit the nail on the head, that people in this country need to wake up to the fact that they are responsible for their own positions in life, and someone (like he) who has worked hard to become successful should NOT be punished only to serve the self-serving interests of those people in life not willing to put forth the effort to improve themselves. That is textbook socialism, and hurts us all in the long run, because people soon begin to wonder why they are pursuing success, and innovation, motivation, drive and work ethics all fail, these are the things that have made us prosper - and like it or not, big corporations are a part of that equation, as they drive this economy every bit as much as Joe the Plumber (or whoever else) does. People need to stop standing around with their hands out and start looking for ways to boost themselves in this life by virtue of their own sweat, work and dedication to succeed. Obama has become as popular as he has because so many people who fit into the former category view him as their meal ticket to gaining what they didn't earn.

 

[rnatalli]

My wife and I stand to gain $4,380 under McCain or $2,789 under Obama. Not enough to sway my vote. Even with my past income in investment banking, it wouldn't be enough to sway my vote.

I do feel what itschris is saying as it irritates me how irresponsible some people can be. I've been broke and I've been flush and never once did I look for help from anyone but myself. I'm also tired of seeing how much crap people pile into SUV's they can't afford. But you have to consider that if the general populace isn't doing well, crime goes up and people with nice things are primary targets. Lower and middle class folks outnumber the rich by a large margin so it isn't good if so many people are hurting. And don't forget that people enforcing the law and fighting the wars also fall into the lower and middle classes. When you're at the top, you have a lot more to lose in chaos and the only reason people stay at the top is because of the rule of law which goes out the window if things become desperate. The way I see it is that it isn't punishment, but more of a bribe. Lets look at things today, people in the lower and middle classes aren't happy, they're simply voting in a government that will tax the crap out of you. Either way you're going to pay.

 

[MidnightSensi]

I don't like how much Obama wants to raise taxes on rich people. I want America to be the place to be if you are a smart entrepreneur.

That said, McCain's other policies are so bad I can't vote for him.

 

[rnatalli]

I don't like how much Obama wants to raise taxes on rich people. I want America to be the place to be if you are a smart entrepreneur.

That said, McCain's other policies are so bad I can't vote for him.

I completely agree that Obama's tax increases are a bit high, but McCain's idea will put us into bankruptcy. This isn't the 1950's anymore; it's a global market.

 

[aberkowitz]

The fact of the matter is, the more you have the more you spend and that's what drives the economy. The lowest brackets have a drastically less affect on the economy simply because of descretionary spending habits. If you let me keep more, I'll spend more... but key in that are the results of that equation...which are vastly disproportionate based on where the distribution of money goes. When you take $10K from me, it gets spent very differently then when you parse it out in $100 increments to 100 different lower bracket earners. it's not a zero sum game as most liberal tax pundits expect you to believe.

I'm in the same boat as you Chris, but more towards the bottom of the range that will have taxes increased! My biggest problem is that families who make 250K are grouped in the same bucket as families who make 600K, and people who make 650K are grouped with people who almost make $3 million. Not saying that we need an increase in brackets, but when you look at the breakdown of that Washington Post chart in no other bracket is there such a disparity between the top and the bottom. I live in NYC- there's a HUGE difference between making 250K and 600K, yet this isn't taken into account in any calculation of taxes.

Look- I know that compared to the average American there's a huge disparity between what my wife and I make with 2 jobs and what their family might make with 3 or 4 jobs, and I have no problem with paying my fair share of taxes. When you make more money, you pay more taxes... that's part of sharing in society. The real problem I have is when politicians try to get their rocks off by bashing the "rich" and saying that people who make money don't pay their fair share... what should fair share be?? Is 70% of the taxes by 10% of the people not enough of a share? How much is enough?

 

[Alamar]

The only problem not mentioned here about taxing the guys with $ [which I don't have] is that it is exactly those people who are likely to start more small businesses and create jobs.

If you increase a small business owner's taxes he's going to look for a way to not shoulder the whole burden so it's very possible he could cut back on staffing / put plans to expand on hold because if they're punished for making more money why should they take the risk if they won't be rewarded / etc.....

Of course I'd honestly like to see a radically different tax system than the easily abusable system we have now.

******************************************************************

To be clear I think both tax plans are bad ... they're just bad in different ways.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Link

I thought Obama was going to raise it above $250K? The link shows nothing to about $600k.

 

[jonnythan]

I don't support either of these candidates. And neither system makes sense to me.

McCain plans to lower everyone's taxes? What sense does it make to lower rich people's taxes more than middle class families' taxes?

People are starting to respond to my comments in anonymous red chicklets instead of addressing me directly:

"maybe you should read more about politics if you plan to make comments"

 

[pzaur]

People are starting to respond to my comments in anonymous red chicklets instead of addressing me directly:

"maybe you should read more about politics if you plan to make comments"

Weak...weak...weak...(nodding head back and forth and letting out a sad sigh)

Use the red chiclet for incorrect information! Lame to chiclet someone for having a differing opinion!
With that stated, jonnythan asked more questions than anything that added to additional information being added about what was being discussion.

-pat

 

[tcarcio]

All this just proves to me that a flat tax would be much better and if you give incentive checks only people who actually pay taxes should be eligable.

 

[pzaur]

All this just proves to me that a flat tax would be much better and if you give incentive checks only people who actually pay taxes should be eligable.

Agreed! To add to that, they should only be eligible for the max amount of the incentive check if they payed that much or more in taxes.

-pat

 

[mtrycrafts]

People are starting to respond to my comments in anonymous red chicklets instead of addressing me directly:

"maybe you should read more about politics if you plan to make comments"

That is a shame indeed as I know it too well
This is the steam vent if they forgot it