Economic impact on you?

E

Exit

Audioholic Chief
Epilogue

I really appreciate everyone bearing with me as this forum unfolded. I wasn’t really organized in my head when I started and I wasn’t sure where it was going, but I got my voice near the end and my thoughts came together the way they did. I wish I could analyze more of the issues, but the “economy on the brink” issue decides it all for me, and I hope for most others. I feel like I can comfortably power down and let the forum take its natural course with others taking their turns. I hope you got a kick out of tinkle-down theory because I have been thinking about that one since Regan. Republicans make up such fantastic names and theorys for simply giving money directly to the wealthy elite that you just have to lampoon it if you can. The middle class and poor know they are being hosed by the Republicans, but I think it is so refreshing to expose the scam for what it really is. We may get hosed again, and maybe we can’t do anything about it, but at least they may get the idea that we are not quite as dumb as they think. And, if we get taxed much more, then don’t count on our consumer spending to bail their butts out of the second great depression because we may not have the means or will to do it.
 
E

Exit

Audioholic Chief
Off into the Sunset?

I am done pontificating, but I wanted the thread to have one more shot in the new posts section before oblivion. If you think the thread is worthy of further distribution, then you are welcome to link it out to other sites. If you want to keep it active, make further posts. Either way, thanks again.
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
And, if we get taxed much more, then don’t count on our consumer spending to bail their butts out of the second great depression because we may not have the means or will to do it.
And, if you tax the rich much more, investment capital will flow out of the USA and a great deal of employment along with it. Money flows to where it can make a profit and flees from where it is over-taxed.

Something nobody seems to consider, rich people employ workers. Tax the rich seems to be Obama's mantra for this election but the campaign rhetoric only serves as a warning for those with wealth to get it out of the country
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
And, if you tax the rich much more, investment capital will flow out of the USA and a great deal of employment along with it. Money flows to where it can make a profit and flees from where it is over-taxed.

Something nobody seems to consider, rich people employ workers. Tax the rich seems to be Obama's mantra for this election but the campaign rhetoric only serves as a warning for those with wealth to get it out of the country
First off it is personal wealth that is being talked about. Not business taxes. Secondly all that a rich person wants is to be more rich. Which means that they send jobs offshore regardless.

There isn't a single thing that you can do with the tax base that is going to convince someone not to offshore a job paying someone $0.50 an hour, no health care, no retirement, no nothing.
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
First off it is personal wealth that is being talked about. Not business taxes.
I am also talking about personal wealth. Rich people tend to be highly mobile with residences in more than one country. Take note how wealthy people leave Canada for the US, giving up residency in Canada entirely due to Canada trying to tax worldwide income for it's resident citizens. The US currently has a favorable tax treatment for the wealthy and it's caused a great deal of money to flow into the country. Now imagine people giving up US residency and taking their bank accounts, investments, etc with them.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I am also talking about personal wealth. Rich people tend to be highly mobile with residences in more than one country. Take note how wealthy people leave Canada for the US, giving up residency in Canada entirely due to Canada trying to tax worldwide income for it's resident citizens. The US currently has a favorable tax treatment for the wealthy and it's caused a great deal of money to flow into the country. Now imagine people giving up US residency and taking their bank accounts, investments, etc with them.
They do that already. The wealthy live where ever they want. If you have 7 mansions around globe I have a hard time viewing you as some altruistic giver of jobs and economy.

Sorry I just really see this as a red herring. Last time I was up in Canada the everyday citizen seemed to be doing quite well. Last I checked they all can at least see a doctor.

Sorry not buying.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Annunaki and Mort Corey:

I feel the obligation to vote that was instilled in us since we were kids, since we live in a democracy and have that privilege. Throughout our history, a lot of brave people have died to make sure we still have that privilege and if you don’t use it, you dishonor their sacrifice. Even if you don’t know what you are doing when you vote (i.e. Bush was elected twice), you should still vote on principle.

If you don’t vote, you have no moral right to speak out about what happens in the future because you couldn’t make the choices or didn’t do your research to wade through all the crap and see what each candidate was proposing. Voting is not just about the president either. There are a lot of other government leaders to vote for too. The president is only one out of three of the branches of government. Voting for the House of Representatives and Senate leaders is equally important because they equal a president and surely you might find someone there to represent your views. If not there, then maybe state governor or state representatives, etc.

We all need you to vote this time because we are balanced on the edge of a potential great depression and everyone could be adversely affected if the wrong economic policies are put in place. As I have explained, I see McCain taking $3,750 per year out of my average middle class income, and nowhere have I seen any proposal of a stimulus package anywhere near that for the middle class and poor. I don’t think sucking the lifeblood out of the middle class and poor is going to stimulate consumer spending to save the day. I think it is a recipe for a great depression. Combining that with the lazzie-faire, free-market, non-interventionist philosophical bent of McCain and the Republican Party, we could be facing another Herbert Hoover (a staunch republican) great depression scenario. The republican approach is to passively watch everything melt down so they can toast marsh-mellows on the fire while they wait for the free-market to magically come along and save our country’s wealthy elite.

I am also not in favor of the republican tinkle-down theory, where all us little people get a golden shower from the wealthy elite, unless they miss a little and it all runs down their leg. The Democratic Party is not handicapped by the same philosophical economical flaws as the republicans and the therefore stand a good chance of averting an economic meltdown. The democrats have Franklin Delano Roosevelt (FDR) as an example of what their party can do when the going gets rough. FDR came in after Hoover’s republican policies put us in the first great depression in the thirty’s. He was an innovator who got policies put in place on the fly and pulled us out of a further economic nosedive as well as running our country successfully through most of WWII. The Democratic Party permits such a man to lead and that is what we need now. I think Barrack Obama is a proven innovator. He revolutionized the way campaign finances can be raised independent of the Washington lobbyists and that is no minor accomplishment. If he can do that, and being a rational person with an even temper, he can lead our way out of this economic situation as well as our other problems.

I haven’t focused on Obama much because I knew from my average economic situation, everyone would be better without McCain and the republicans - for our country as well as the middle class and the poor. The wealthy elite will always be the wealthy elite. To them, money is an abstract scorecard where it is a game to see how many zeros you can put behind the first digit in your net worth. They have either never known or long since forgotten what it is like to live from paycheck to paycheck. They don’t comprehend what $3,750 a year in increased taxes means to an average or poor family. They don’t have to choose between buying food or paying utility bills.

You don’t have worry about the wealthy elite; you can rest assured they will always be getting more than their fair share. The wealthy elite control the businesses, the money, the lobbyists and a lot of the leadership in our country. For the first time in a long time, we may get to elect a leader that represents the common people in our country. That is why you need to vote.

At least if Obama owes anyone a favor for campaign financing, it’s the common people and not the Washington lobbyists. For their financial and political support, McCain owes lots of lobbyist’s favors. So if you are really tired of the same old politics, I suggest you give Obama a vote this time around and I think you might see a positive change. It’s a lot to hope for, but there is a lot to lose.
Who said either of us were not voting????
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Annunaki and Mort Corey:

I feel the obligation to vote that was instilled in us since we were kids, since we live in a democracy and have that privilege. Throughout our history, a lot of brave people have died to make sure we still have that privilege and if you don’t use it, you dishonor their sacrifice. Even if you don’t know what you are doing when you vote (i.e. Bush was elected twice), you should still vote on principle.

If you don’t vote, you have no moral right to speak out about what happens in the future because you couldn’t make the choices or didn’t do your research to wade through all the crap and see what each candidate was proposing. Voting is not just about the president either. There are a lot of other government leaders to vote for too. The president is only one out of three of the branches of government. Voting for the House of Representatives and Senate leaders is equally important because they equal a president and surely you might find someone there to represent your views. If not there, then maybe state governor or state representatives, etc.

We all need you to vote this time because we are balanced on the edge of a potential great depression and everyone could be adversely affected if the wrong economic policies are put in place. As I have explained, I see McCain taking $3,750 per year out of my average middle class income, and nowhere have I seen any proposal of a stimulus package anywhere near that for the middle class and poor. I don’t think sucking the lifeblood out of the middle class and poor is going to stimulate consumer spending to save the day. I think it is a recipe for a great depression. Combining that with the lazzie-faire, free-market, non-interventionist philosophical bent of McCain and the Republican Party, we could be facing another Herbert Hoover (a staunch republican) great depression scenario. The republican approach is to passively watch everything melt down so they can toast marsh-mellows on the fire while they wait for the free-market to magically come along and save our country’s wealthy elite.

I am also not in favor of the republican tinkle-down theory, where all us little people get a golden shower from the wealthy elite, unless they miss a little and it all runs down their leg. The Democratic Party is not handicapped by the same philosophical economical flaws as the republicans and the therefore stand a good chance of averting an economic meltdown. The democrats have Franklin Delano Roosevelt (FDR) as an example of what their party can do when the going gets rough. FDR came in after Hoover’s republican policies put us in the first great depression in the thirty’s. He was an innovator who got policies put in place on the fly and pulled us out of a further economic nosedive as well as running our country successfully through most of WWII. The Democratic Party permits such a man to lead and that is what we need now. I think Barrack Obama is a proven innovator. He revolutionized the way campaign finances can be raised independent of the Washington lobbyists and that is no minor accomplishment. If he can do that, and being a rational person with an even temper, he can lead our way out of this economic situation as well as our other problems.

I haven’t focused on Obama much because I knew from my average economic situation, everyone would be better without McCain and the republicans - for our country as well as the middle class and the poor. The wealthy elite will always be the wealthy elite. To them, money is an abstract scorecard where it is a game to see how many zeros you can put behind the first digit in your net worth. They have either never known or long since forgotten what it is like to live from paycheck to paycheck. They don’t comprehend what $3,750 a year in increased taxes means to an average or poor family. They don’t have to choose between buying food or paying utility bills.

You don’t have worry about the wealthy elite; you can rest assured they will always be getting more than their fair share. The wealthy elite control the businesses, the money, the lobbyists and a lot of the leadership in our country. For the first time in a long time, we may get to elect a leader that represents the common people in our country. That is why you need to vote.

At least if Obama owes anyone a favor for campaign financing, it’s the common people and not the Washington lobbyists. For their financial and political support, McCain owes lots of lobbyist’s favors. So if you are really tired of the same old politics, I suggest you give Obama a vote this time around and I think you might see a positive change. It’s a lot to hope for, but there is a lot to lose.
Obama is the same old democratic (now turned socialist) rhetoric & bs with a new wrapper.

At least John McCain is open about what he really is in that regard.

In any case, neither is what America really needs right now. Neither offer true solutions to problems as neither will really do what is in the best interest of America & her citizens.
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Anyone that believes that either of the two major party candidates being elected will change much of anything is in for disappointment.

Mort
IT almost doesn't even matter who wins at this point. The next president is going to spend his first 1-2 years helplessly trying to extract the country from an economic slowdown. Almost every single one of their policies will have to be put on the backburner to deal with these associated issues. They can talk all they want about change, but it just ain't going to happen.

If Obama manages to win re-election, only then will any of his platform have a chance to get a fair hearing... and who knows what Congress may look like at that time.
 
E

Exit

Audioholic Chief
Just Responding Then I Am Back Out.

Nothing personal guys, it was a literary device to speak to the apathetic, disgruntled, dissatisfied, confused, angry and disenfranchised people out there who think their vote doesn’t matter. This time we are on the edge of a depression and everyone’s vote matters a lot. The more who vote, the stronger the mandate for our leaders to seriously get down to business and really “lead” us like they were supposed to be doing all along. We can’t afford the wrong Republican economic policies to be put in place because they won’t work in a great depression and Herbert Hoover proved that in the first great depression in the 1930’s. We need someone who can innovate as economic conditions change and put custom-made unique solutions in place, and not a bunch of rigid old ideological economic dogma from the last century. Our best bet is with the Democrats and Obama and we have to hope they are up to the challenge. They have the precedent of FDR on their side so we know it can be done within their party framework.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
They do that already. The wealthy live where ever they want. If you have 7 mansions around globe I have a hard time viewing you as some altruistic giver of jobs and economy.

Sorry I just really see this as a red herring. Last time I was up in Canada the everyday citizen seemed to be doing quite well. Last I checked they all can at least see a doctor.

Sorry not buying.
Anyone in America can see a doctor whether they are a citizen or not and usually within 24 hours. In Canada it may take you over a month to see a doctor depending upon the severity of your issue. Many people who want quality treatment (for bigger problems) come from Canada to the US for treatment.

The problem in the us is that hospitals have no accountability for the prices they charge for service or items used in the service. Insurance companies do not question much what they are charged as they can simply raise premiums or deny the coverage.

I would rather know that a regular doctor visit will cost me $50.00 and pay that than pay $400.00 a month for insurance and then still pay $25.00 of the $50.00 as co-pay. I would rather pay $100.00 for insurance in case it is needed for a major emergency than $400.00 so as to cover all types of visits.

We need major medical coverage for emergencies (with no worries about what will be covered) and then reasonable competitive pricing for normal visits.

Sure there may be flaws, but no one plan can suit every one or be perfect. There could be multiple different ways to cover everyone through the private sector with a high level initiative laid out with some government oversight without socializing the health care system.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Nothing personal guys, it was a literary device to speak to the apathetic, disgruntled, dissatisfied, confused, angry and disenfranchised people out there who think their vote doesn’t matter. This time we are on the edge of a depression and everyone’s vote matters a lot. The more who vote, the stronger the mandate for our leaders to seriously get down to business and really “lead” us like they were supposed to be doing all along. We can’t afford the wrong Republican economic policies to be put in place because they won’t work in a great depression and Herbert Hoover proved that in the first great depression in the 1930’s. We need someone who can innovate as economic conditions change and put custom-made unique solutions in place, and not a bunch of rigid old ideological economic dogma from the last century. Our best bet is with the Democrats and Obama and we have to hope they are up to the challenge. They have the precedent of FDR on their side so we know it can be done within their party framework.
We also cannot afford outright government control over many sectors of our lives the way the socialists, I mean democrats, like to do things either.

To say that the current group of republicans are folloing anything close to the principles Regan put forth is a joke. These people abandoned the real values and philosiphies that he stood for and got them there long ago.


Neither party has our best interests as citizens and a country at stake. They have formed a political elite class the rule over those below them. They both like it that way and will do what they can to keep themselves there.

Our best bet is with someone who will attack the problem and get things done and not worry about what a poll or the media says about them. It also lies with someone outside the current corrupt two party system. It lies with someone willing to get the money out of Washington (lobbyists, special interest groups, re-election coffers, etc.) and do what is best for the country and it's citizens.
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
We can’t afford the wrong Republican economic policies to be put in place because they won’t work in a great depression and Herbert Hoover proved that in the first great depression in the 1930’s. We need someone who can innovate as economic conditions change and put custom-made unique solutions in place, and not a bunch of rigid old ideological economic dogma from the last century. Our best bet is with the Democrats and Obama and we have to hope they are up to the challenge. They have the precedent of FDR on their side so we know it can be done within their party framework.
Dude- I appreciate your passion and I agree with the call to get as many people to vote as possible, but you really need to go read up on some of your history before you try to use it to support your point of view. The Great Depression had very little to do with "Republican" economic policies and had everything to do with the lack of any sort of centralized banking regulators or bodies that could respond to the events of the day. I will never argue that Hoover responded appropriately to the crash of '29, his policies certainly helped make the problem worse, but there were fundamental flaws in the institutions of the day and there was no organized body that had the power or the mandate to fix the problem.

The establishment of institutions like the Fed, the SEC, and the FDIC came out of the fact that there was a total power vacuum prior to the 1930s in the area of financial regulation.

I think it's a bit strong to cite the precendent of FDR as the saving grace of the Democrats. FDR was strongly disliked by many members of his own party. Most of the New Deal was actually killed by a democratic Congress. The reason FDR tried to pack the court with 11, 13, and even 15 justices was so he could do an end-run around Congress and get his programs instituted the way he wanted to. In the end, Congress was correct to limit some of these programs- as it turned out a good majority of the the New Deal programs failed before they started. There were plenty that worked of course, but they tended to be the exception as opposed to rule.

In addition, it should be noted that the economy of the US didn't really recover until WW2- the depression didn't formally end until 1939. Despite all of the New Deal policies, unemployment still remained high and so did inflation.

I do believe that FDR was a fantastic President in that he was able to give hope to millions of people during an awful time in this country's history, and of course for his decision to buck most of Congress and get involved in the war, but he can never be described as an economic savior. I would highly recommend you read "No Ordinary Time" by Doris Kearns Goodwin for a great look at both his life and Eleanor's life and how they led the country through the 30s.
 
M

Mort Corey

Senior Audioholic
Not to nitpick, but the Fed was established in ?1913? so was at hand before the depression. Helicopter Ben has stated that he feels the Feds actions (or lack thereof) were responsible to a great degree in making things worse.

Anyway, this article is a little long but does give a different perspective on the actions of Hoover at the time.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard184.html

Mort
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Not to nitpick, but the Fed was established in ?1913? so was at hand before the depression. Helicopter Ben has stated that he feels the Feds actions (or lack thereof) were responsible to a great degree in making things worse.

Anyway, this article is a little long but does give a different perspective on the actions of Hoover at the time.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard184.html

Mort
Good point on the exact date of the Fed's founding, but I would argue (or at least use the well-reasoned arguments of others to make my point :D) that the Fed had very little power and/or influence to affect the market enough to have avoided the Depression.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
In Canada it may take you over a month to see a doctor depending upon the severity of your issue. Many people who want quality treatment (for bigger problems) come from Canada to the US for treatment.
I would want to hear from the Canadian members here about that. I don't think your statement is true.

Over all for being a world leading first rate democracy we do HORRIBLE in a lot of health care metrics. Overall health care, geriatrics, infant mortality...

I just have to roll my eyes when it comes to the "Rich people will leave". They aren't generating wealth here, they aren't employing people here, they aren't building factories here.

This whole thing of wealth flight and taxes is such a bogus argument as to be ridiculous. Taxes are not what makes a U.S. based business setup manufacturing in China nor help desks in India. To think otherwise is an insult to common sense.

I am working slowly and surely to being a rich person. It is a goal. No one has been keeping from it. No republican, no democrat. They have less to do with my outcome than almost any other person out there. I like to live nicely but I ain't that ***damned greedy.
 
E

Exit

Audioholic Chief
Just Responding Again Then I am Out

Aberkowitz

Thanks for the history correction. Read about it just last year with my daughter for her American History class, so I forgot some of it since then. Basically I remember Hoover sat on his butt for a few years and did nothing why the country suffered because of his blind belief in Republican doctrine that the government was not in the business of helping people or intervening in the economy. A lot of people suffered. FDR got elected and started intervening in the economy, helping people with work programs, etc. and got the country through the bad times until the economy recovered with war production for Europe. He may not have been the economic savior, but he did prove that having the government intervene and do something to improve the economic and people situation was a hell of a lot better than passively watching it destruct because of some lame economic belief.

If you don’t like the analogy to Hoover and FDR, then toss it out. McCain’s proposals to tax medical benefits and privatize Social Security are enough reason not to vote for him. If you are looking for consumer spending to pull our economy out of toilet, then passing an additional $3,750 or more annual tax increase on the middle class and poor is one hell of a stupid and dangerous economic plan to propose when we are on the brink of a depression. Bernacke studied the first great depression and together with Paulson he is tackling a very dicey situation. Sometimes they need help from Congress and the President, which is why we need good leaders now who can support them. Putting the McCain economic policy in place could undo the whole thing, especially with the traditional Republican lazzie-faire, non-interventionist ideology that goes with it. So the Republicans are supporting economic intervention by Bernake and Paulson? If the Democrats do that the Republicans call them Socialists (meaning something negative and not the successful European countries). If the Republicans support economic intervention what do we call them? Democrats? Socialists? or Baloney?
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
...but if Obama gets in maybe we won't have to listen about how racist America is anymore.

And maybe foreign countries won't hate us as much as they do now.

Just trying to stay positive.
It's a myth that foreign countires hate US, I think it's a general opinion many many places wherever you go in Europe that people from US are very nice, positive friendly.... but with the worst politicians in the world... :eek:

If you go to Europe as a US citizen you will be greeted with open arms.......

And many people out there just need somevody to hate and they pick the easiest target... so when Danish and Norwegian papers printed Muhammed cartoons, our embassies were burnt to the ground the next day..... some of these guys do have no sense of humor........
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
It's a myth that foreign countires hate US, I think it's a general opinion many many places wherever you go in Europe that people from US are very nice, positive friendly.... but with the worst politicians in the world... :eek:

If you go to Europe as a US citizen you will be greeted with open arms.......

And many people out there just need somevody to hate and they pick the easiest target... so when Danish and Norwegian papers printed Muhammed cartoons, our embassies were burnt to the ground the next day..... some of these guys do have no sense of humor........
I really need to go to Norway... such friendly people :)
 
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