Need Help Building a System

[bigbonesaw]

Hey, not going to lie, I am fairly new to this, i've always used future shop budget brands, then one day a few years ago walked into a Hi Fi store and my mind had been blown. Well a few years have passed, and I think I have enough or close to enough to build a great Hi Fi system...albeit a used budget one most likely, but a Hi Fi system none the less.

This is what I want and listen too.

I'm a fan of old rock music and some heavier stuff as well....listen to Beatles, Pink Floyd, Hendrix, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Metallica, System of a Down so I guess a fairly broad range of styles. Please keep this in mind, when helping me out.

A record player, the speakers i've listened to and I think sound absolutely amazing are ATC, but maybe there is a better type for my budget as finding ATC's in my budget can be hard.

For amps, from what i've read McIntosh seems to be the way to go, but I could be wrong, I had a NAD power envelope and was amazed at it back in the day. Also do I go tube amp? What are the advantaes/disadvantages?

I know **** squat about pre-amps, but from what I read i basically need one, and its better to have the amp and pre amp seperate rather than together like most recievers i've seen.


Anyways please enlighten me to what would be a great set up for this price range.


Was thinking a Sunfire 10 inch sub

My budget is between 5 and 7 thousand dollars.

oh yah I want to be able to shake the house when needed, yet keep crystal clear sound

 

[Davemcc]

If I were building a two channel system right now, this is what I'd do. Spend the bulk of that budget on speakers. You need to find speakers you like, but audition brands such as Dynaudio, B&W, Focal.JMLabs and others in that range. There are many, many speakers in this range worth looking at. With a good set of towers, you shouldn't need a sub for dedicated music listening. Most of the music you listed above will not go as deep as the extension of a good set of towers that extend below 30Hz.

Beyond that, I would pick up a set of Rotel components, a stereo preamp with a phono section built in and a stereo power amp chosen according to your speaker's requirements, the room size and your listening habits. I might even consider getting the matching Rotel CD player, simply for aesthetics to make a nice looking system. That's what I would do but opinions are like...well, you know.

 

[jostenmeat]

with $7k, I'd spend:

1k, or less, on an integrated SS amp
5k on a pair of towers, or bookshelves + sub, or towers + sub
1k, or more, on room treatments

Come to think of it, that's more or less what I did...

not exactly, but similar. Good luck.

 

[mazersteven]

The OP didn't state this, so I wanted to clarify. Is your budget strictly for a 2-channel music system?

 

[bigbonesaw]

2 Channel for now

just a 2 channel for now, I wouldn't mind having surround system as an option for movies, but don't like Surround for music myself.

To the guy who suggested a Rotel amp...I have a Rotel R713 and to be honest.....extremely dissapointed in it, I think my NAD amp did twice the job...but thats me, maybe I have a crappy Rotel.

I really like the ATC SCM 20SLT towers for speakers, is there any reason that I shouldn't go with these?


Also can someone please tell me the benefits/Detriments of a tube amp?

 

[Davemcc]

To the guy who suggested a Rotel amp...I have a Rotel R713 and to be honest.....extremely dissapointed in it, I think my NAD amp did twice the job...but thats me, maybe I have a crappy Rotel.

The only reference to a Rotel like that is a Rotel RA-713 that was reviewed in November of 1978. http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:973bN2_s008J:www.roger-russell.com/magrevsr.htm+rotel+ra-713&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

If this is the animal you are talking about, I can think of two things to say. 1) I hope your not judging Rotel today based on a piece of 30 year old equipment. 2) It's piece of 30 year old equipment that still works. What more do you want?

It looks like the 713 was only 45 wpc and may not have been designed to be suitable for the speakers you have been using. I humbly suggest that Rotel products today are a far cry from what was available in 1978. They have amps available now that will drive just about any speaker you want at reasonable prices compared to many I've seen. NAD makes fine amps by all accounts. If that's what you wanted before you made the original post, by all means go buy one.

I really like the ATC SCM 20SLT towers for speakers, is there any reason that I shouldn't go with these?

It sounds like you knew what you wanted before you even made your first post. What are you looking for? Validation? OK, go buy those too and be happy.

 

[bigbonesaw]

Not validation, just want to know if there are better speakers than the ATc's for the price, when I heard them I was blown away by their clarity, but the reason I had a sub picked in my original post was because I found they didn't have much for bass, and a sub would be needed...but that was just my assumption.

As for Rotel, I'd have to look at their new stuff a bit more closely I guess, the NAD i had was 15 years old, but yah the rotel is 30 yrs so there would be a difference.

No I don't have my system picked out exactly yet, I'd love McIntosh amp, but they are mega expensive and would take up a large part of the budget.

ALSO...Tube amp or No Tube amp....what are the differences besides price, are Tubes that much better or are you paying for the old school look?

 

[Davemcc]

I don't have any experience with ATC but from what I've been able to see, it looks like fine professional grade equipment. For those that are interested. If your desire is to obtain studio quality sound within your budget, I would suggest that you contact members of the forum by the names of WmAx or Avaserfi. Their knowledge and experience in this area are outstanding. I have an idea of the goal you are trying to achive and these fellows are the most likely to get you there. You may need to make a couple more posts in order to activate your private message privileges.

As for tube amps, if accurate reproduction of musical sources are the goal, tube amps are less than ideal. The big advantage of tube amps is the way they clip the signal when distorting. It's more of a soft clipping as opposed to the square clipping of a SS amp. Some people may argue that tubes are warmer sounding, but that's more an indication of the amp coloring the signal. It's not accurate reproduction. Accuracy would be best obtained from using a SS amp with enough power to drive the speaker to your desired level without clipping. A SS amp that performs within it's designed parameters will be more accurate than a tube amp. After all, the tube amp is really 1940's technology. So you're not paying for an old school look as much as you're paying for old school performance.

 

[avaserfi]

If maximum fidelity is your concern then typical recommendations are virtually useless. Rather a pair of high quality pair of neutral loudspeakers integrated with stereo subwoofers via a high quality DSP is ideal. Please bear in mind that such a system requires more involvement in setup, but will allow for a completely customizable tonality such that idea playback is possible. In addition, proper acoustic treatment is not optional there is no way around this if ideal performance is the goal.

Loudspeakers: B&W 801 Matrix II or III from the late 1980's - about $2500
Subwoofers: 2x SVS PB13 Ultra - $3200
DSP: DCX2496 - $300
Amplifier: Yamaha P2500S - $400
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V2500 - $350

Explanation:

While the speakers recommended are old they are still comparable to speakers costing $15k-25k today. Regardless of the new or used market at this price point there is no superior alternative. Please note, if you do have a chance to audition these speakers prior to buying their actual tonality is meaningless. This means, if you don't like how the speaker sounds that is okay. The DSP will allow you to fix such issues, the primary concern with this recommendation is neutrality such that maximum fidelity can be achieved through proper manipulation.

The subwoofers were chosen because they are extremely capable of high SPL, as requested, along side being extraordinarily linear. If you are wanting to save money it would be extremely reasonable to drop down to a lower class subwoofer and still maintain superb performance. Also note, if you are at all comfortable with working wood a lower cost alternative has already been designed which will likely outperform the ultra in 20-25Hz range and have equal output above. This design and its full instructions as well as a review can be found here.

The DCX2496 is recommended because it is a high quality DSP that will allow for optimal integration of your subwoofers (to be placed within 3 feet of each main speaker crossing over at about 80Hz). Also, this unit will allow you to fully tailor the response of your subwoofers as well as your loudspeakers such that virtually any tonality is achieved.

The amplifier recommended is a high quality pro-amplifier that will power your speakers fully without any signal depredation. This item was chosen because of its relative low cost and high performance. Along side this the fan will likely never turn on in home use.

The Yamaha receiver chosen will work perfectly as a superb processor while maintaining low cost and high quality craftsmanship.

Please note that the electronics listed can easily be found for less than the price shown. I listed typical street prices, for example I paid $225 for my DCX and have seen the Yamaha 2500 go for about $100 less than listed. If you are willing to put in a little extra work you can save some more money.

Any left over budget should be allocated towards room treatments. Even for a novice woodworker or someone with no experience at all I would recommend building these yourself. They are extremely simple to build and will optimize sound quality. If you are further interested in this suggestion I will be willing to help outline proper treatment methodology if a floor plan of the room is provided.

Another thing to note: Using a Radioshack SPL meter and Room EQ Wizard (free just sign up for the forums). This will allow for fairly accurate measurement of bass response allowing for equalization in response to room interaction.

 

[WmAx]

I will help if you want my help.

Hey, not going to lie, I am fairly new to this, i've always used future shop budget brands, then one day a few years ago walked into a Hi Fi store and my mind had been blown. Well a few years have passed, and I think I have enough or close to enough to build a great Hi Fi system...albeit a used budget one most likely, but a Hi Fi system none the less.

And I'll be honest: my specialty is audio - broken down into very specific measured parts - and how you relate these parts to human hearing. That is, with sufficient number and types of measurements, I can make accurate assumption(s) of the end sound quality to a human subject. I can also spot the things that make no real/significant difference based on this knowledge. I like to help out people with my knowledge when they want it. In your case, I can help you (1) save a lot of money [and] (2) help you achieve sound that sounds best to your ears compared to what would normally be possible. Now, I'm not going to go into great detail about any specific things right now because I don't know if you want my help. But I suggest you look up my past posts to get a better idea about me. I don't want to waste my time making suggestions if you do not have a respect for the scientific protocol and logic. I am not assuming you are stupid or anything of the like! It's just that their are many people in this hobby that have no respect for the scientific protocol or whom have no apparent logical deduction skill(s) to even care or realize the importance. My recommendations are rather vastly different compared to probably 99.99% of what you will typically receive because of by strict scientific basis method of making the suggestions. My good friend avserfi will provide similar help as compared to myself. Do not confuse with so called 'typical' objectivist, as some may be referred to --- as while I may principally be defined as such --- I have the actual knowledge, because of the contributions made to this field by good science to make recommendations to you to vastly help you in your quest.

BTW, very little money should go towards the electronics. Electronic hardware that is transparent to human hearing is not very expensive. The expensive parts of achieving the best possible sound quality are (1) speakers [and] (2) room acoustical correction treatments. Exotic electronics should only be purchased if you do not have to compromise the purchase budget of your speakers or room acoustic treatments to do so, as exotic electronics amount to what a Rolex does: be a show piece with no better accuracy than a Timex.

Please reply to let me know if you want my suggestions/help. Remember, please look up my posting history and try to get a grasp of the level/type of help I will provide before simply saying yes. I have to put FAR more effort into my posts to help as compared to the normal poster due to the type/level of help that I provide.

-Chris

 

[davidtwotrees]

We should probably tell bonesaw that this is an objectivist site. Objectivists believe that you have to be able to prove you can hear a difference before you can say you can hear a difference. Subjectivists just say they can hear a difference.

I am happy with my system as it sits (within my budget). I have bought a ton of used gear, and some new gear. In three years I have owned like 8 different amps........and that was really a waste of time on my budget. I am soon selling my five channel "audiophile" amp that I paid $1200 for.
Put all your money in speakers! Full range towers will shake your house. When I first set up my Canton L800DC towers it was a musical revelation.........and the bass shook my house unlike my $1000 pair of Mordaunt Short towers that just vibrated it alot. I also have a $600 subwoofer, but it doesn't do much for music, frankly, although I do sometimes run a 2.1 system just for shits and grins.

Bryston makes some nice amps that can be had used.......3b's are like $500. The 4b is more like $1300 used.
I would not buy a preamp that didn't have a remote..period. Although if you are going with vinyl, you don't mind getting up to change the record....I have a music server with all my music on a hard drive and I would never go back.

Go listen to the speakers. And compare them. If you are buying from a bricks and mortar store, don't be afraid to negotiate........the retail price has a ton of mark up. There are some internet direct companies that are putting out really nice gear now. Many are picking up return shipping so you get a free in home demo...........same with amps.............Good Luck.

 

[bigbonesaw]

aversfi hit the nail on the head of what I want, and WinMx followed up, thanks guys, because I would have spent a couple G's on the amp and pre-amp, and if thats not needed I'd rather put that money into other things.


To both of you, yes I do want your help, and yes I will listen to it. As for room upgrades, I can't really take advice on that at the moment, as I am in the process of looking for/buying a house, so not going to go upgrade the room I'm in if I'll be moving within the next 6-12 months, however one of the main things I'm looking for in a house is a good living room for listening so things to look for would be helpfull.


I'm going to undertake building my own 2 subs from the DIY subs that were posted. I'm pretty good with wood work and have all the tools needed to build these....which brings me to my second question........Would it be possible to build towers that are comparable to B&W, or ATC...and if so would it be cost effective like the sub's are?

I can't lie the idea of building my entire stereo other than amps and stuff (sorry i'm good with wood not electronics) makes me giddy, however I'm not about to sacrafice sound quality for my own enjoyment of building something, if thats the case I'll buy speakers and build a deck!

Also another quick question where would one buy the driver for the sub that you posted Aversfi?



I must say I appreciate the help from you two more than you can imagine, as I know what I want as far as sound goes, I just don't know how to get there.


From reading reviews and such it seems as though the ATC's are outperforming the B&W, but i'm not sure i'm looking at the right B&W's, they are the matrix but their cost new was only around 6 grand and you had said something like they were 20-25k, so I might be looking at the wrong speakers, if you could give me a link even to a review or something with a picture of these speakers it would be greatly appreciated. I know I can pick up a pair of ATC SCM 50P 3 way speakers for under 5 grande, which would be ok if I saved a few dollars on making my own subs...I said I want to spend no more than 7...but lets face it a budget never stays put, lol, I just don't want to start looking at a 10,000 dollar system and have it cost 15 if you know what I mean, i figure price out for 7 and leave a couple G's room for fine tuning.

The last thing I noticed from the equipment that you recomended is that the yamaha amp, I can get a more powerfull one for barely anymore money, of the same model, would this be a waste of that extra money as I won't possibly need any more power, or are they maybe not as stable as the 2500?

Thanks again guys, I'm sorry if I sound like a total moron, but I am out of my element here, talk trains and rail with me i'll answer all your questions, as for audio stuff as I said before I know the sound I want, but don't know how to get there!

 

[WmAx]

I'm going to undertake building my own 2 subs from the DIY subs that were posted. I'm pretty good with wood work and have all the tools needed to build these....

Good. I concepted this sub design for avaserfi originally - and if you build it to the directions exactly - it will yield audio quality that is not surpassable. It was designed as a perfect neutral bass system with high dynamic range. A pair is suggested of course - not a single - unless you cross under 50Hz or so using a steep rate crossover.

which brings me to my second question........Would it be possible to build towers that are comparable to B&W, or ATC...and if so would it be cost effective like the sub's are?

This depends. If you are referring to the full range retail speakers in the $6k range, yes, you can build comparable ones for a raw materials cost of $1500-$2000, following specific plans/designs.

If you want to match the high end gear though, like B&W 802D, things become far more difficult. This is a non-resonant design - that is - it produces virtually no timbre coloration. This is one of the biggest factors in high fidelity sound reproduction and only possible in very expensive cabinets due to the labor/complexity involved. The cabinet is the single most expensive part in virtually all speaker systems, btw.

There are no high end DIY designs that I know of with details published for one to build such a low resonance cabinet system. There is a superb open back dipole system that is very low resonance called the Linkwitz Orion. But this will cost you $5k or more to complete probably. And you should only consider this if you can set up the speakers in the room so that they are at least 4' from the back wall. A rear radiation speaker like the Orion needs lots of distance from the rear wall, otherwise, the signal will reflect too soon as compared to the direct signal and it will negatively affect sound quality.

Also another quick question where would one buy the driver for the sub that you posted Aversfi?

Go to www.pricegrabber.com and type in Infinity Kappa Perfect 12VQ and look for the best current price from a seller with high reliability rating.

From reading reviews and such it seems as though the ATC's are outperforming the B&W, but i'm not sure i'm looking at the right B&W's, they are the matrix but their cost new was only around 6 grand and you had said something like they were 20-25k,

The B&W I recommend is $14k - the 802D. The lower cost units, overall, do not compare to the 802D. Google 'B&W 802D Stereophile' and you will get a link to a review if want such.

I just don't want to start looking at a 10,000 dollar system and have it cost 15 if you know what I mean, i figure price out for 7 and leave a couple G's room for fine tuning.

It's a shame. The 802D was much cheaper before the last year where the dollar weakened. Still, if you did a 'cash' purchase in person at a B&W dealer, they would probably sell you a 802D pair for $10k. The mark up is probably near 2x the street price.

The last thing I noticed from the equipment that you recomended is that the yamaha amp, I can get a more powerfull one for barely anymore money, of the same model, would this be a waste of that extra money as I won't possibly need any more power, or are they maybe not as stable as the 2500?

The Yamaha amp series recommended is a superb quality line of amps. But you can go cheaper if you want - they are already very reasonable priced. Compare the P2500S to an 'audiophile' amp of comparable power specifications.

BTW, with the subs, you need to use a DCX2496 ideally as your controller and crossover. This tool has many functions and will be the key to integrating your subs as a seamless extension of your main channels in the future.

-Chris

 

[bigbonesaw]

Reciever

Ok the Yamaha RX-V2500 was recomended I found a Yamaha RXV3300 for the exact same price as I've seen the 2500's for, would this be a wise decision to pick this one up or does the 2500 have some features I need/or is better, because of the 3300 is better then I'll buy that one since its the exact same price.

Sorry for all the short dumb questions but I do appreciate the help guys, I'll take pictures and document the making of the subs and share photo's of the entire system when its complete

 

[bigbonesaw]

Behringer

BTW, with the subs, you need to use a DCX2496 ideally as your controller and crossover. This tool has many functions and will be the key to integrating your subs as a seamless extension of your main channels in the future.
-Chris

Would this be that particular model before I hit the buy button and get the wrong piece of equip?

Behringer Ultradrive PRO DCX2496

Ultra High-Precision Digital 24-bit/96 kHz Loudspeaker Management System



Oh yes one last question, to power the subs in the build the Behringer amp is suggested, would Yamaha amps such as the ones powering the system be better or would Behringer be better than the yamaha's, just wondering if one of the two are better than the other?

 

[WmAx]

Would this be that particular model before I hit the buy button and get the wrong piece of equip?

Behringer Ultradrive PRO DCX2496

Ultra High-Precision Digital 24-bit/96 kHz Loudspeaker Management System

Yes, that is correct unit. Also, be sure to get a long serial cable so you can use a computer to set up the DCX using it's excellent software GUI. If you use a laptop, get a USB to serial adapter - most laptops do not have a serial output. You can use the DCX with it's front panel controls -- but the software GUI is much easier to deal with. Note that the DCX has XLR inputs. If you use a source to feed the DCX tha thas rca outs only - then either solder up a RCA to XLR cable or buy some adapters. Ideally, you would use like an ART DTI box. This is an unbalanced to balanced transformer of very high quality. It is passive(no power needed) and removes any chance of getting ground loop hum/noise - a not so uncommon problem when mixing unbalanced and balanced gear connections. The Art DTI also has all connection types(1/4", RCA and XLR) on output and input sides, making connections super easy between devices. Build quality is top notch.

Oh yes one last question, to power the subs in the build the Behringer amp is suggested, would Yamaha amps such as the ones powering the system be better or would Behringer be better than the yamaha's, just wondering if one of the two are better than the other?

The Behringer is actually built a little more robust than the Yamaha -- by that I mean the Behringer could probably take more drops to the floor without breaking. The Behringer also has lower impedance ability - at 2 ohms. The Yamaha is limited to 4 Ohms. But you don't have a 2 ohm load to worry about so that's not an issue. The Yamaha's fans won't come on in home use - so if you did not want to bother with changing the fans out(which you must with the Behringer), then the Yamaha makes things a little easier. The Yamaha also looks better IMO. I personally have three of the Yamaha units. For fun, here is my dedicated stereo listening room's component table: http://www.linaeum.com/images/wmaxcomponents_1.jpg

For a stereo pre-amp, I use a Yamaha RX-V2600 receiver. Despite it being a receiver, it's a superb pre-amp. It even measures better as a pre-amp than some dedicated pre-amps(!). It has a nice thick polished metal front panel, clean looks and lots of nice features if ever needed. I feed it's outputs to a DCX2496, which in turn feeds 3 Yamaha pro amps: 1 x P2500S, 2x P3500S. My speakers are 3 way active - so this is the reason for 6 channels of amplification for a stereo set up.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Ok the Yamaha RX-V2500 was recomended I found a Yamaha RXV3300 for the exact same price as I've seen the 2500's for, would this be a wise decision to pick this one up or does the 2500 have some features I need/or is better, because of the 3300 is better then I'll buy that one since its the exact same price.

Sorry for all the short dumb questions but I do appreciate the help guys, I'll take pictures and document the making of the subs and share photo's of the entire system when its complete

I don't recommend the RX-V2500 for the purpose here. Go for the RX-V2600 or later. The RX-V2600 saw a major re-design with major improvements to the measured output qualities of the pre-amp. You can get great deals if you look around since these are a couple of years old tech. I got my RX-V2600 for about $250-$275(I forget exactly what amount) in mint condition. It also has much higher voltage input and output from the pre-amp starting with the RX-V2600, making it much more ideal to feed a pro device like the DCX2496. Since you are only using for pre-amp, also consider the RX-V1700, RX-V1800, which you can find factory refurbished for great prices. These have the same pre-amp section as the RX-V2600, RX-V2700 and RX-V2800.

-Chris

 

[mike c]

if you are going DIY subwoofer, please also consider the JL Audio 13W7 or 12W7 (granted the Kappa 12 is a great driver, but those i mentioned above are way better and look much cooler )

 

[WmAx]

if you are going DIY subwoofer, please also consider the JL Audio 13W7 or 12W7 (granted the Kappa 12 is a great driver, but those i mentioned above are way better and look much cooler )

Just to remind the OP: only go to the W7 units if you still build a pair. Multiple units are too important for sound quality. Also, the W7 are not superior to the Kappa Perfect for sound quality unless you are driving them at SPL levels well over 120 dB. The W7 has about 2x the physical linear movement and about 2.5x the power handling thermally, as compared to the Kappa Perfect subwoofers. But when using the Kappa Perfects within their linear suspension and motor limits, which is considerable, they are transparent for the purposes of music reproduction.

Also OP, please realize that not many woofers that claim super high power handling and excursion have high sound quality at high SPL. Very few have identical or near identical properties at high vs. low power and low distortion at high power. However, the W7 and Kappa Perfects are two such examples that do keep high sound quality when pushed hard - so long as your cabinet systems are engineered/built properly. The cabinet can make or break a system.

-Chris

 

[bigbonesaw]

The guy at the lumber yard talked me out of buying the cabinet grade plywood as he swore up and down that MDF was much better for speaker cabinets...now I didn't buy the MDF I just walked out empty handed, and thought I better check one more time to make sure that the Cabinet Grade Plywood is a better choice than the MDF.

Thanks in advance for the help