HT receiver, speaker advice

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bkbond12

Audiophyte
Hello Everyone,
I'm somewhat new at this whole home theater setup and want to maximize my investment.

I purchased a Samsung LN52A750 series 7 LCD television, and before I hear about how it sucks.....it had the best picture I could tell with all the televisions I viewed and I picked it up for $2399. For my programming, I have an HD directv receiver (wish I could get cable).

Anyways, I was thinking of using a PS3 for my blu-ray player due to it's processor being much better than most other BR players and the price is nearly equivalent. I have heard issues about getting the audio working well, so am not sure about what would be the best.

What I need advice with is what receiver, speakers, and upscaling dvd player I should use. I have an xbox 360, but don't really think it's all that great for movie playing, so I was thinking of going with a nice Oppo.

My living room is fairly large and I'm looking to spend around $3500-5000 to make the sound and picture amazing.

Advice on which system components would work well in my price range would be terrific. Attached is a picture of my current tv and stand (my son is watching Dora on the couch, but you get the idea). We just moved in and I want to do this right from the get-go, so fire away. Thanks.

h**p://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/bkbond12/IMG_0658.jpg
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
We can all recommend speakers we like, but you need to do some auditions, as we all have different hearing.
For the $3500~$5000 range, is that for everything, or just speakers?
For a DVD player I'd suggest a Denon, I've got the 1930ci and it does a great job upconverting, plus its a DVD-A/SACD player.

For speakers, I'd recommend JBL Studio L series, starting with a pair of L890 towers for the mains and a LC2 center. You can add any other model from that series to finish out the system. You can find them on harman audio and their ebay store.

Or if you really want to step up go with the JBL Performance Series PT800 mains, PC600 center and PS1400 subs. This system can be found on www.harmanaudio.com under "specials". One thing really nice about the PT800 is they come with wall mounting brackets and really look good wall mounted, plus they can be stacked with the subs or set on stands.
I use 5 PT800s, including one for the center and a pair of diy subs. There is nothing better than using identical speakers all around, especially for MC music.
With a large room you really want speakers that have a good mid-bass driver and the PS really gives you that. And they produce one of the best soundstages you will ever hear.
 
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F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
1) The PS3 is a terrific choice for a Blu-ray player.

- Playback quality is stellar.
- Internal decoding of ALL audio formats (never have to worry about audio support, the PS3 handles it all!)
- Starts up quickly and loads discs FAST. Way faster than any stand-alone player.
- Already a full BD-Live Profile 2.0 player and easily upgraded should there be any future updates to the Blu-ray format.
- The most widely tested player by all studios for compatibility. Some players have playback bugs. Not the PS3. Studios make darn sure their discs work on the PS3, so it's by far the safest choice in terms of compatibility with all discs that come out.
- Can also function well as a media server. Connect to your network and you can stream pictures and audio from your computer too.
- Price, as you said, is comparable to stand alone players.
- You get a heck of a nice HD videogame system too!

So as far as I'm concerned, the PS3 has lots of up sides to it and no down sides. What are you waiting for? Buy one! :D

2) Really no need for a seperate upscaling DVD player.

- The PS3 is an excellent upscaling DVD player as well!

3) There are a LOT of good speakers out there. We could give you recommendations until we're blue in the face and still not cover all of your choices.

- to find, as best we can, the top choice for you specifically though, here are some things to think about:

a) Can you give us some ball park figures for your room size? Doesn't have to be dead on, but basic length, width, height would better help us to understand your room.

b) Could you describe whether this is a closed room, or does it have openings to other rooms of the house? If so, where are those openings located?

c) Could you describe your layout? As in, how far is the distance from your head to the TV screen? Where are the other seats positioned? Basically, we just need a good idea of seating distance and how wide and deep the listening/viewing area is.

d) Looks. Do you have any specific desires when it comes to the looks of your speakers? Do you want to wall mount them? Do you want to place them on stands?

e) I have my own, strong opinion, that everyone should aim for accuracy when it comes to speakers. Accuracy first, everything else second. But not everyone agrees and some people believe preference is king. In other words, some people really just want pounding bass and others want extreme detail. Some want "warmth" and others just want everything to sound reasonably good, even if it's a bad recording.

If you have any such preferences, let us know!

4) Recommending a receiver won't be too hard. There are a lot of very good choices and the only critical feature with your setup will be that it has HDMI inputs that can accept a multi-channel PCM signal. Multi-channel PCM is what comes out of the PS3, so that is the only critical feature that absolutely, positively MUST be included.

But before we recommend anything specific, it'll be more important to get an idea of what speakers you'll be using. That will dictate the remaining budget and may also give rise to specific needs from the amplifier section of the receiver.

Get back to us with answers to those questions and we should be able to deck you out with a kick-*** system for sure!

Oh, and no knocks what-so-ever on your choice of TV. Samsung's LCDs are fantastic looking TVs! Very good black levels for LCDs, great shadow detail, superb color accuracy and color decoding and no motion blur. So great choice there and I'm sure you'll be very pleased with its picture performance!
 
R

raptorzfan

Audiophyte
I too am in almost the identical situation as bkbond12. I am buying a Panasonic Viera 46" plasma THPZ46800U and planning to hook it up with the PS3. I have decided on getting the Denon AVR3808CI receiver. I can spend an additional $3K to $3.5K on speakers.

However my living room is not that big, but extends into the dining area as well. Here are answers to some of the questions FirstReflection listed:

3a) L*W*H = 13*12*10 feet
3b) It opens into the dining area which is slightly larger than above. Basically, if I am sitting on my couch and watching the TV, the opening is behind me.
3c) Head to TV would be about 9 feet.
3d) Do not want wall mounts. Prefer floorstanding or stands.
3e) Definitely would like accuracy. My listening preference is about 70% music/30% TV-movies.

I mostly listen to stuff like Radiohead, Pinback, RHCP, Dido, Ben Harper. Not sure how to describe it, but I like good full sound that surrounds me. I heard Totem Acoustic speakers (Totem Mite) and they seemed decent. However, not sure if there are other options that you can suggest I check out. Would really appreciate your advice!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
raptorzfan,

great choices all around so far on your TV and receiver.

Your room itself is small, but with an opening to another room at the back, the total size of the open area is larger. Still, even with the dining area included, it's a medium sized room, so there's no real worries with any decent speakers as to whether they will be able to play loud enough or be driven by your AVR-3808CI.

My personal opinion is that you would actually be best served by using a 5.1 speaker setup. Furthermore, I would recommend using monopole surround speakers rather than diffuse di-pole or bi-pole surrounds. My reasoning for this is two fold:

1) You've said that the majority of your listening is music. While good di-pole or bi-pole surrounds can still sound just fine with music, in general, monopole surrounds will give you a better experience with surround music or when expanding stereo music to 5.1 using Dolby Pro Logic II.

2) With a large amount of room behind you, using diffuse surround speakers would lead to a significantly "fuzzy" sound behind and around you as the sound would reflect off the back wall and reach your ears at a significant delay.

Adding surround back speakers (a 7.1 setup) could resolve some of this, but then you would also have speakers positioned in your dining room, and I'm not sure if that is something you'd want.

In the end, sticking to a 5.1 setup with monopole surrounds just makes more sense to me. You'll want to place the monopole surrounds slightly behind your listening position rather than directly to either side. Basically, get them about 2 feet behind your seat. Have them fire across the room directly at one another - do not aim them towards your head. And if at all possible, have them positioned above your seated height - as in, try to get the tweeters about 2 feet above your seated ear height. For most people, that'll mean having the tweeters about 5 feet or so off the ground.

With a smaller room width, it'll also be good to avoid really wide dispersion from your speakers. It's better to limit the amount of reflected sound from your front speakers and have more direct sound hitting your ears.

That consideration, along with the other things you've said about prefering floorstanding or stand mount speakers with a "full" and encompassing sound leads me to highly recommend the av123.com Rockets to you as a great choice.

The ring radiator tweeter is about as flat and accurate in frequency response as you can hope for. Its dispersion is a bit more narrow though - some detractors of the design even say that it "beams". But in your situation, with a room that is not very wide and thus a more narrow seating area, this is actually a benefit and it will allow for extremely clear and detailed sound from your music.

The Rockets also possess a very nice warm and full sound and from what you've described, I think you'd be thrilled with their sound quality.

They are gorgeous speakers in terms of looks. While they are certainly not small, they enhance any room with their looks, rather than being something you would want to hide. The gloss black end caps will also match perfectly with the slick looks of your TH-46PZ800U.

I'll leave the exact choice of models up to you and I'd certainly recommend that you call or write to av123.com to discuss exactly which models would work best for you. Their customer service is excellent and I highly recommend talking with them prior to purchase because it is a most pleasant and helpful experience.
 
R

raptorzfan

Audiophyte
Thanks a ton for your advice! Monopoles definitely make sense based what you have shared. I will also give av123 a call and discuss. Although like a lot of buyers it does not naturally come to me to buy speakers without listening. I am hoping talking to them would help. I will also be checking out PSB, Mordaunt-Short, Aperion (online), Monitor, Totem Acoustic, and Paradigm speakers as well this week. Will let you know what I ultimately buy.

Thanks a ton!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Indeed - buying without hearing for yourself first is always a worrisome prospect. Internet-direct companies try to assuage this fear by offering 30-day trials and full refunds, but even so, the hassle of boxing and shipping the speakers back is still a major deterrent, so I fully understand the hesitancy.

Still, I think many of us are very familiar with the experience of listening to speakers in a store, only to bring them home and have them sound significantly different! The simple fact is that the room itself plays such a huge role in the final sound that there really is no way to "hear" what a speaker truly sounds like outside of your listening room.

And because of that, I'm sure that is why so many of us come to message boards and forums simply to discuss and maybe get some suggestions. Even though it's not a substitute for hearing a speaker in your own room with your own ears, it is still a more educated method of narrowing down your choice than simply picking a speaker and hoping it all turns out for the best :p

I've had the pleasure of listening to many many speakers in my own room. This is a real hobby for me, so I don't mind paying the cost of return shipping or restocking fees :) Every month or so, I have new toys to play with and no really huge expenditures since I keep so few of the products that I try. For sure, I may be "abusing" the return policy of stores and online vendors, but on the other hand, I also end up recommending speakers all the time and I'm sure there have been at least a few sales that would not have taken place otherwise.

With speakers, there is no strict "right" or "wrong". I actually lament that somewhat as I would personally love for there to be some sort of industry standards, much as there are for displays. But for now, when I audition and listen, I mostly attempt to pick out distinctive traits with each speaker.

Given enough time with placement, upstream equipment and equalization, virtually any competently made speaker will sound "good". But what I try to make a note of are clear (albeit, often subtle) differences that are inherent to the speakers themselves.

Sometimes, a certain trait will reveal itself and thus, make that particular speaker especially good or bad in a certain situation.

I figure, that is the sort of thing that anyone asking on a forum would like to know about. There are a TON of "good" speakers. Every brand you mentioned that you would like to audition is "good". You could literally chose any one of them and it would hard to be disappointed.

Of the ones you mentioned, the only brand I have not tried personally are the Mordunt-Short.

My own experiences with the other brands yielded the following notes:

PSB - I found these to be rather "forgiving" speakers. From top to bottom, the sound was pleasing and accurate, but in comparison to some of the most detailed or "revealing" speakers, I found them to sound slightly veiled

Aperion - I only tried some of their earlier models and the lineup has since been updated, so things may be different now. My experience with their older speakers though was that they were not even from top to bottom. The cross-over regions exhibited uneven frequency response and I found the upper frequencies started to sound distorted before reaching my own peak tolerance for loudness. As I said though, their speakers have been updated, so things could easily be different now.

Monitor - I tried their Silver line of speakers. I found them to basically be without any fault or obvious traits of their own. Essentially, I could control their sound however I pleased depending on placement, equalization and associated equipment.

Totem - "Warmth". These definitely had their own character and it was a "full bodied" type of sound. My own personal desire is for neutral speakers that exhibit more or less no character of their own, but I can certainly understand why many people would immediately gravitate to the Totem sound.

Paradigm - "Wide Dispersion". If I had one thing to say about Paradigm's speakers it's that they would be excellent for a larger home movie theater, but they are less precise when it comes to pure music listening. These really gave me the impression that every seat in a theater would be granted very similar sound, but when it comes to pin-point focus, that is not their strong suit.

By all means, those are only MY experiences and opinions and by no means any sort of definitive take on any of them. I'm sure plenty of people here would be more than happy to disagree or debate my own findings. But never-the-less, I think some people find it helpful, so I offer it simply as one man's opinion :)

In any case, for your own room and described taste, raptorzfan, the Rockets were the speakers that jumped to mind. They just seemed to hit all of the factors that made sense and I tried to describe those factors in my previous reply.

With all of the speakers I have tried, I can honestly say that there are very very few where I would actually be disappointed to own any of them. Almost any well made speaker sounds "good" and can be adjusted to closely match your taste. In the end, my advice is to not get too hung up on it. There will always be someone who thinks their choice is "the best" and you will always wonder if there is something "better". But after dozens of speaker brands and a few years now of switching out speakers on a regular basis, I've come to the conclusion that there is far more "the same" about well made speakers than there are differences. For sure, there ARE differences, and that is the fun of trying so many! But my point is that there really aren't very many outright "bad" choices, so there's no need to worry. Buy any well made speakers and they can make you happy :)
 
B

bkbond12

Audiophyte
Can anyone vouch for this setup of speakers? "SVS
MTS-01 Full size 5.1 channel system with matching PB13-Ultra subwoofer"

I really like the looks, and the specs read nicely too.
 
B

bkbond12

Audiophyte
I know I forgot to mention this, but I also have cathedral ceilings which are going to "echo" the sound. Does anyone have recommendations of av stores other than Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. in the SW Michigan area? I really want to set this up the best way possible.
 
B

bkbond12

Audiophyte
Sorry for another post, but after this one I can post a picture of my home layout.
 
B

bkbond12

Audiophyte
Here is a layout of the first floor of my house. You get an idea of the dimensions a little better. I could also use suggestion on how to mount surround sound speakers in the back of the living room since I don't have an attic to get into there. Anyways, I appreciate everyone's time and suggestions, hopefully I get this figured out the best way possible. Thanks.

Please disregard the clutter etc., we just moved in and are trying to get everything arranged (man, previous owners had some ugly curtains).





 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
hoo boy...

acoustically, you've got yourself a rather difficult room there, bkbond12. There's honestly no way to know how the room would react acoustically without in-room measurements on that one. Standard equations can work fairly well in a perfectly rectangular room, but obviously, that is not what we have here :p

To be as direct as I can be - if you really want the very best sound possible, you'd be best served to focus first on acoustically treating your room and to worry about speakers later.

Now, you could go the full blown route with a company like Rives Audio, but I think what would be more up your alley would be to try out the free room analysis offered by Auralex

I used the Auralex analysis myself (albeit, in a perfectly rectangular room, so it was more simple than your room) and I found them extremely polite and helpful. And it's free...so honestly, what's to lose?

I really really would recommend that you give that a go first because the biggest factor by FAR when it comes to what you will hear in your room there is the room itself. To put it bluntly, without some room treatments, the "best" speakers in the world are not going to sound like the best speakers in the world in that room. There are just too many acoustic issues to be able to really say that any particular speakers are going to be your best choice in the room as it is now, without treatments.

All of that said, here are some basic ideas I have:

1) Like raptorzfan, I think you will be best served with a 5.1 speaker setup using monopole surround speakers. You have a similar sort of situation where you have a large opening behind your seat to a kitchen/dining area. Use of diffuse di-pole or bi-pole speakers as surrounds would lead to an overly "fuzzy" sound as the sound reflects all over the place back there before reaching your ears. A 7.1 speaker setup would require that you place speakers in your dining area, which is obviously unattractive. All in all, a 5.1 setup with monopole surrounds is just the most simple and attractive way to get a good surround experience.

2) You will likely be able to "get away" with using just one subwoofer - although you cannot expect every one of your seats to get an even frequency response that way. The thing is, with so many openings to other areas of the house, room modes (nulls and peaks) will be less of a problem for you, so using two subwoofers to even out the frequency response won't be as necessary for you. That said, you will need a VERY capable subwoofer, because, in essence, you have to pressurize the ENTIRE open area. Bass does not "play nice" and confine itself just to your listening area. It will "spread out" and attempt to fill any area it can reach, so you need high quality, prodigeous output from your sub or subs.

Just looking at your room and arrangement though, I think positioning two subwoofers would be problematic and aesthetically unappealing. You've mentioned the SVSound PB13-Ultra. Certainly that subwoofer has the sort of quality and output capability that you would need, so it could be an excellent choice. For considerably less money though, the av123.com MFW-15 has very similar quality and output capability - albeit in a physically larger case though.

I've not heard the new MTS SVSound speakers for myself, so I cannot comment directly on them. As I said in my last (long) post though, they are certainly well made speakers (at least, going by my experience with their SBS speakers) and I would be rather shocked if they were not able to make you happy with their sound quality. If you love the looks and styling, a MTS speakers with PB13-Ultra subwoofer combo would most certainly be an easy "thumbs up" in my book.

For placing your surround speakers and routing speaker wire to them, what might make the most sense is this:

1) Use stands to position the surround speakers and then run flat speaker wire under your carpet. When I say flat speaker wire, I mean something like this Stick to the perimeter of your room as best you can, but the flat speaker wire can easily go under the carpet without being noticed.

2) wall mount the speakers and then use paintable raceways to run the wire.
 
B

bkbond12

Audiophyte
hoo boy...

acoustically, you've got yourself a rather difficult room there, bkbond12. There's honestly no way to know how the room would react acoustically without in-room measurements on that one. Standard equations can work fairly well in a perfectly rectangular room, but obviously, that is not what we have here :p

To be as direct as I can be - if you really want the very best sound possible, you'd be best served to focus first on acoustically treating your room and to worry about speakers later.

Now, you could go the full blown route with a company like Rives Audio, but I think what would be more up your alley would be to try out the free room analysis offered by Auralex

I used the Auralex analysis myself (albeit, in a perfectly rectangular room, so it was more simple than your room) and I found them extremely polite and helpful. And it's free...so honestly, what's to lose?

I really really would recommend that you give that a go first because the biggest factor by FAR when it comes to what you will hear in your room there is the room itself. To put it bluntly, without some room treatments, the "best" speakers in the world are not going to sound like the best speakers in the world in that room. There are just too many acoustic issues to be able to really say that any particular speakers are going to be your best choice in the room as it is now, without treatments.

All of that said, here are some basic ideas I have:

1) Like raptorzfan, I think you will be best served with a 5.1 speaker setup using monopole surround speakers. You have a similar sort of situation where you have a large opening behind your seat to a kitchen/dining area. Use of diffuse di-pole or bi-pole speakers as surrounds would lead to an overly "fuzzy" sound as the sound reflects all over the place back there before reaching your ears. A 7.1 speaker setup would require that you place speakers in your dining area, which is obviously unattractive. All in all, a 5.1 setup with monopole surrounds is just the most simple and attractive way to get a good surround experience.

2) You will likely be able to "get away" with using just one subwoofer - although you cannot expect every one of your seats to get an even frequency response that way. The thing is, with so many openings to other areas of the house, room modes (nulls and peaks) will be less of a problem for you, so using two subwoofers to even out the frequency response won't be as necessary for you. That said, you will need a VERY capable subwoofer, because, in essence, you have to pressurize the ENTIRE open area. Bass does not "play nice" and confine itself just to your listening area. It will "spread out" and attempt to fill any area it can reach, so you need high quality, prodigeous output from your sub or subs.

Just looking at your room and arrangement though, I think positioning two subwoofers would be problematic and aesthetically unappealing. You've mentioned the SVSound PB13-Ultra. Certainly that subwoofer has the sort of quality and output capability that you would need, so it could be an excellent choice. For considerably less money though, the av123.com MFW-15 has very similar quality and output capability - albeit in a physically larger case though.

I've not heard the new MTS SVSound speakers for myself, so I cannot comment directly on them. As I said in my last (long) post though, they are certainly well made speakers (at least, going by my experience with their SBS speakers) and I would be rather shocked if they were not able to make you happy with their sound quality. If you love the looks and styling, a MTS speakers with PB13-Ultra subwoofer combo would most certainly be an easy "thumbs up" in my book.

For placing your surround speakers and routing speaker wire to them, what might make the most sense is this:

1) Use stands to position the surround speakers and then run flat speaker wire under your carpet. When I say flat speaker wire, I mean something like this Stick to the perimeter of your room as best you can, but the flat speaker wire can easily go under the carpet without being noticed.

2) wall mount the speakers and then use paintable raceways to run the wire.

Great advice. Thank you. I hate the idea of using raceways as I hate the look of them. The crappy part is with the cathedral ceiling, running the wires up the wall and across the attic is impossible. I have a basement type alternative, but it's going to be damn difficult with my finished basement and drywalled ceiling. Anyways, I'm going to give Auralex a try and see what happens. Once again, thank you.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You bet!

I know the first reaction is very often to just say, "just tell me what will work best in my room the way it is because the cost and hassle of acoustic room treatments seems like too much trouble."

Heck, it's still my reaction a lot of the time! :p

But any time you really, truly want good quality audio performance, the key to the whole shebang is the room, the room, the room.

So definitely give the Auralex Advisor a try. It does require some work and time on your end, but ultimately, the Advisor part itself is free - you can't beat that! - and the results, when you acoustically treat the room, literally speak for themselves. You'll get FAR better results by spending $3000 on room treatments and using a $2000 5.1 speaker setup then you would by using a $5000 speaker setup in an untreated room.

This is often the part that takes some convincing and education for anyone who hasn't had real, first hand experience with the results, but once you've had the experience, it truly does speak for itself.

I do have to remind even myself about that all the time though :p I'll very often walk into a room and my first thought is still, "what speakers would work best in here?" rather than, "what's the best way to acoustically treat this room?"

We don't see sound, so we don't immediately notice the havoc being reeked on the audio signal by room acoustics. But we certainly notice it by its absence ;)
 
R

raptorzfan

Audiophyte
FirstReflection,

I apologize for the late reply. I was busy painting my new place that I am moving into. Now that all that is taken care off, I finally placed order for my audio system. After really thinking it through and having a really amazing bunch of folks to guide me (including yourself), I finally decided to take it slow for the time being. So I am buying a 2.1 system for my small apartment right now that I will expand to a 5.1 once I buy my own place in another year. Here is my audio setup:

- Totem Acoustic Rainmaker bookshelf speakers as fronts (bi-amped)
- Totem Acoustic Thunder subwoofer
- Denon 3808CI Receiver (will heavily use it as a network receiver too)
- NAD Electronics C542 CD Player

That combined with a TH50PZ850 (the web feature sounds cool, although redundant in the short-term; hopefully firmware upgrades should make it better) and a PS3 make it my home theater setup. I am also spending on the furniture (BDI) and good quality speaker stands for the bookshelf speakers. My hope is to upscale my audio setup to a 5.1 with Rainmaker Centre and Hawk floor standing speakers from Totem Acoustic by the same time next year. The Hawks would then take their place in the front and the Rainmakers would move to the back. I really like the "full-bodied" sound of this setup.

Looking forward to experimenting with audio and video for the first time in my life!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Wow, raptorzfan...if this will be your first major experiment with AV, you're certainly doing it right and starting off with a bang! Man, if I could have started with a system like that, I sure could have saved myself a LOT of money :p

I've gone through the whole journey myself: the CRT with HTiB, the rear projection with modest Kenwood receiver and Polk speaker package, the full blown theater with 92" projection screen, LCD 720p projector, Yamaha receiver and Axiom speakers with HSU sub to my current situation with two setups - an unfinished theater with 2.40:1 aspect ratio screen, 1080p projector, Denon receiver with Emotiva amp to power the front 3 speakers, Emotiva speakers all around and dual HSU subs plus my current "living room" theater with Panny THX plasma, Onkyo receiver, Energy speakers (that hardly ever get used since I switch out speakers for fun so often :p ) and the same HSU sub from my previous theater - which is the only piece of gear I've kept for a significantly long time :)

If I'd have been smart though, I would have done things your way by taking my time, learning from others first and putting together a great system from the start that I wouldn't have to replace later!

So you are clearly doing the right thing IMO. You've listened for yourself, you know what you like, you're going with GREAT quality gear right from the start and you won't have to replace anything!

Congrats on your decision and best of luck in all of your purchases!
 
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