UN-Official Formula 1 Thread

[annunaki]

Yea, good points.

I've been looking forward to the 09 season. Whilst I'm amazed by the aero bits on the cars these days (the McLaren and Ferrari front wings are simply works of art), the teams are now so dependent on aero that even following another car seems to give drivers problems.

Hopefully the new aero regs (stripping of the aero winglets) will aid overtaking, as will the selectable boost from the KERS.

The moveable aero is an interesting area. I guess drivers can tweak lots of stuff already, so I can see it playing a part on long straights, but otherwise I'm not sure what they're going to do with it. I expect automatic changes won't be allowed (driver input only) and I think it's only 2 changes per lap, so presumably that'll limit it to one setting at the start of the straight, and back to another at the end.

The two changes per lap is going to stink for engineers at tracks like Sepang, China, & Spa where there are two long straights, with downforce required in between.

KERS will be a benefit out of medium/lower speed corners or on the straights.

Overtaking is not that big of a deal, it is the ability to have the car behind capable of following to make overtaking possible. I don't want overtaking for the sake of overtaking. If I wanted that, I would watch Nascrap or a spec series.

I wonder if there are rules (I have not checked) on how long those movements have to take effect. A good engineer could have the timing adjusted so the aero would move slowly offering benefit for a longer/shorter period. They could adjust this timing from track to track based upon how long it takes to go through certain sections of the track where the benefit is most realized.

 

[sploo]

The two changes per lap is going to stink for engineers at tracks like Sepang, China, & Spa where there are two long straights, with downforce required in between.

I'm also wondering what the effect of driver error is going to be. Imaging getting the wrong setting/forgetting to change/or failure at the end of a main straight - it wouldn't be fun entering a corner with no front-end downforce; 2.4L, 700+bhp, 200mph, brown trousers.

Overtaking is not that big of a deal, it is the ability to have the car behind capable of following to make overtaking possible. I don't want overtaking for the sake of overtaking. If I wanted that, I would watch Nascrap or a spec series.

*LOL* I must admit I'm enjoying MotoGP more these days, as there's much more overtaking than F1.

It has surprised me that more hasn't been done about the problems of following another car. On the UK TV coverage they did an article a couple of years back showing the level of restrictions on the designers - basically, a set of volumes are prescribed, and the specified elements (front wing, cockpit, sidepods etc.) of the car must fit into the specified volumes. Hence why some people criticise the cars for looking so similar.

If they're that controlled, I would've thought they could specify that a volume of space behind the car must be 'clean' to a certain level. I.e. you can do what you want to increase downforce, but you mustn't damage the air for the guy behind. Perhaps it's not that simple (I don't have a degree in aerodynamics)!

 

[annunaki]

I'm also wondering what the effect of driver error is going to be. Imaging getting the wrong setting/forgetting to change/or failure at the end of a main straight - it wouldn't be fun entering a corner with no front-end downforce; 2.4L, 700+bhp, 200mph, brown trousers.




*LOL* I must admit I'm enjoying MotoGP more these days, as there's much more overtaking than F1.

It has surprised me that more hasn't been done about the problems of following another car. On the UK TV coverage they did an article a couple of years back showing the level of restrictions on the designers - basically, a set of volumes are prescribed, and the specified elements (front wing, cockpit, sidepods etc.) of the car must fit into the specified volumes. Hence why some people criticise the cars for looking so similar.

If they're that controlled, I would've thought they could specify that a volume of space behind the car must be 'clean' to a certain level. I.e. you can do what you want to increase downforce, but you mustn't damage the air for the guy behind. Perhaps it's not that simple (I don't have a degree in aerodynamics)!

Unfortunately, it is not that simple. I do not have a degree in aerodynamics/aeronautics either but I understand it pretty well. The cars have gotten better (aero wake), but the wake in the air they leave is pretty tremendous, especially at high speed. The FIA has created this mess by not allowing, the undertray and diffusers to be messed with. If allowed, they could generate all of their current downforce from undertray aero and potentially even more. They could then go back to say single element wings and put a limit on their angle, which would not disrupt airflow as much.

Suction fans would be a pretty cool thing to look at as well

 

[sploo]

Good points. The undertray aero is desirable - especially if it could result in less turbulence behind the car. However, I think the ground effect systems (Bernoulli's Principle?) whereby you create low pressure under the car (or perhaps the use of fans) has long been banned for safety reasons - going over a bump, which suddenly increases the car to ground distance (or a compression that cuts the air flow under the car) results in a pretty instant loss of downforce.

I believe it's one of the causes claimed for Senna's accident (cold tyres [low pressure] resulting in the car being too low to the ground, which bottomed out, and killed a large part of his grip through the corner).

I understand the F1 cars are now required to have a 'regulation' plank of wood screwed to the bottom to prevent the teams running the cars too close to the ground. I suppose it's a pretty common sense solution to a problem.

 

[majorloser]

Suction fans would be a pretty cool thing to look at as well

One team had those many years ago and they got banned almost immediately. It was considered too much of an advantage.

I'll see if I can find more info on the team and year.

 

[majorloser]

Found it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabham_BT46

"When not in use, the fan was covered by a dustbin lid, but it soon became clear what the modified Brabham was intended to achieve: when the drivers blipped the throttle, the car could be seen to squat down on its suspension as the downforce increased."

Note the owner of team was Bernie Ecclestone.

 

[race4aliving]

Jim Hall's Chaparral team developed the 2J in the 1970 CanAm series and was banned shortly after it's introduction.
In 1978 the Brabham F1 team introduced the Bt 46b which also used a fan to improve aerodynamics. they ran one race with it before it to was banned, the 1978 Swedish GP where it qualified on pole and won in a very dominate fashion.

 

[sploo]

Some things that may be of interest...

Great in car video of the Spa incidents: http://sundayafternoonclub.blogs.topgear.com/2008/09/09/belgian-gp-onboard/

Amazing to watch the skill of the drivers, and perhaps shows that Kimi was a bit distracted before his accident. Gotta say, whilst I think Hamilton was overly penalised, from the on-board shots it doesn't look too good from his point of view.

That said, guess who didn't get a penalty for this : http://sundayafternoonclub.blogs.topgear.com/2008/09/09/belgian-gp-big-schu/

 

[Kolia]

Good points. The undertray aero is desirable - especially if it could result in less turbulence behind the car. However, I think the ground effect systems (Bernoulli's Principle?) whereby you create low pressure under the car (or perhaps the use of fans) has long been banned for safety reasons - going over a bump, which suddenly increases the car to ground distance (or a compression that cuts the air flow under the car) results in a pretty instant loss of downforce.

I believe it's one of the causes claimed for Senna's accident (cold tyres [low pressure] resulting in the car being too low to the ground, which bottomed out, and killed a large part of his grip through the corner).

I understand the F1 cars are now required to have a 'regulation' plank of wood screwed to the bottom to prevent the teams running the cars too close to the ground. I suppose it's a pretty common sense solution to a problem.

There you go. Ground effect is great but it was decided it was to dangerous. Under carriage design is limited on it's dimensions and layout. The "shadow" must stay within predefined boundaries (the volume blocks mentioned earlier) and also what kind of shapes can be used. There is a maximum size radius that can be implemented, the surface can't be broken be a vertical edge (basically, if a can't go vertical then back horizontal within the designated area).

There is a wood floor. It is standard in size and shape and it has multiple shallow holes drilled into it. The depth of these holes is controlled so has to guaranty the wood's thickness. Meaning you can't bottom out too often. Like it happened with the (Toyota or Honda?) at Indy down the straight. Saw dust was being kicked up!

I don't know what kind of aero loads the car get these days. But back in 2003-2004 the drag was comparable to that of a semi truck.

edit: another problem with over taking and chasing car aero disruption is the airflow to the radiator. When the car can't get clean air, engine output actually drops. In worst case situation, it can event lead to engine failure.

 

[majorloser]

After today's qualifying, who knows what tomorrow's race will bring.

I'd hate to see the whole race run in the rain, but at least it would be something new. Could really put a twist in the points race.

 

[race4aliving]

Especially with Masa the "Rainmiester". for a guy who is so good in the dry, he really seems completely lost when it rains. watching Kimi and Lewis come up from mid pack should be fun also.

 

[Kolia]

Interesting. Matchet (spelling?) just made a comment about what the FIA official said about how to give a position back after cutting a chicane. Obviously the driver needs to give the position back immediately, but must also wait until after the next turn to attack again.

It makes sense since the passed driver now had his race line messed up from the trailing driver's chicane cut. Hamilton was right on Kimi before the end of the straight when he gave the position back. I'm curious to see what will come out of the appeal.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Can some one explain to me why when Kimi starts back in the field he waits until it's too late to post fastest laps...He's done this in multiple races and I don't buy the intermediate vs full wet tire speculation that the announcers spoke about in this race.

 

[annunaki]

Congrats to SeaVet! The kid really put it all together this weekend. Great win for him. He is beginning to impress me, about as much as the STR-04 is

Hamiltion ate many of his statements from earlier in the week



Kimi's performance is baffling? I just don't get it anymore.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Congrats to SeaVet! The kid really put it all together this weekend. Great win for him. He is beginning to impress me, about as much as the STR-04 is

Oh Yea in my disgust over Kimi's performance I forgot to congratulate Vettel. Nice drive from the young man. Many younger drivers would have found a way to spit the bit but he ran a very nice race. Hekki (sp) could have challenged him more (any at all) but thats not Vettel's fault.

Kimi's performance is baffling? I just don't get it anymore.

And they extended his contract another year...I hope this gets sorted out. I do like his skills. I just don't understand. I'd rather him blow the engine trying then to just do parade laps.

SBF1

 

[annunaki]

I feel he has a lack of motivation through most of the race or a lack of confidence.

Kimi simply does not make sense. If you can throw down fastest lap, for 5-6 laps in a row at the end of a race, why not do it all race long, or for at least half the race? I hate to say it, but I have to root for Massa the rest of the year for the championship (since I am a Ferrari fan). I will be rooting for Vettel some as well.

STR appears to be on form with at least BMW at the moment, if not fighting with Ferrari & MacMerc. We should be able to tell, when it is dry, where they are really at. If it is wet again in Japan & China (or any where for that matter) Vettel stands to be a major player into how the championship plays out. I expect Massa should be able to pick up the win in Brazil as he is very quick there. The next three races are definitely up for grabs.

 

[majorloser]

I thought the race was great. It was totally unexpected. I was just glad I wasn't one of the drivers in that mess. It was smart of the race officials to start the race under the safety car to allow the cars a chance to spread out a little prior to going "green". Could you have imagined the pile up on the first corner if they didn't?

I personally thing the Ferraris ain't worth poop in the wet. They were running almost no downforce during qualifying which lead to a poor at best race. As the track started to dry out near the end of the race they finally got some traction and were able to post some great times, including the fasted lap by Kimi. It's pretty obvious that STR took the gamble during qualifying and ran some heavy downforce. It paid off since the rain did not let up for the whole race weekend.

 

[annunaki]

Night race in Singapore this weekend. It should be interesting, especially if it rains. I am looking forward to white hot exhaust & glowing rotors (assuming no wheel spats are used ).

Many drivers have expressed feelings it will be like Monaco though, with few if any genuine overtaking opportunities.

It will be a green track with low track temps. Look for Vettel and some others (good on street/green circuits) to potentially shine here. In any case, hopefully it is very entertaining with good racing.

 

[majorloser]

I don't expect much serious racing in the dark, but it should be entertaining.

I just wish we could get this in HD

 

[STRONGBADF1]

I his car is up to it I'm thinking Alonso will do very well.